Ad Hominem attack is another way you've lost this debate. At this point I'm sure everyone has made up their own minds.

^Again, I admit defeat. Again, thanks for the laughs. Not very aware of much are you?

didnt read many of the replies as its 13 pages long, so forgive me if i mention something thats been missed

from what ive read and a few replies ive seen it seems to be that at first it comes across that the monkey is in control of you're parents death when he could just be telling you the course of events that will happen after.

ive come to think its not about how do you 'get out of it' but it is just about how once you go down a road you cannot go back, if that boy did not go down that road he would not have met that monkey (or maybe he would have) but he did walk down that road and now he has to deal with the consequences.

or if its really philisophical it could be some thing about 'what is choice' but the matrix trilogy is my only education on philosohpy lol

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The last few pages of this thread sum this up pretty well.... I like this story thx for posting.

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An approach a day keeps the guru away.

This seems very reminiscent of Tolle's work (The Power Of Now). Anybody interested in this koan should probably read that book too. It's fantastic.

When the monkey gave you a question to answer, your ego told you that you have to answer it. That you have to analyse if the monkey is telling the truth, when each parent would die, if there's a loophole, so on and so forth. Your ego is trying to find the right answer to this test so it can feel good about itself. What it isn't revealing to you is that you don't have to take the test. You don't HAVE to be paralysed by the monkey.

Yeah, you'll either kill or not kill the monkey. It's always going to seem like you're responding to the monkey's question. But the difference is: are you making that decision on your self's terms, or are you making it because the monkey has influence your ego to demand that of you?

Even if you ended up making the 'right choice', your ego has still won, because your ego has controlled your thoughts and your decisions. This isn't about what is the right choice and what isn't. It's about getting rid of that fucking ego.

When you accept that you do not need to make that choice, then you may make it.

The monkey is the ego/mind.
The boy is the self.

The monkey poses questions, tells the boy he has to think.
The ego/mind poses questions, tells the self it has to think.

The boy doesn't have to play the monkey's game.
The self doesn't have to play the ego/mind's game.

Ah.

EDIT: I assume the reason this was posted here (above other koans) was because of the massive potential it has to help you with pickup - especially as you can apply what I've written above to not just the mind and ego, but to your emotions. Approach anxiety kicks in. Your mind starts giving reasons why it won't work, and you begin to feel nervous. You're being given the choice: What do you do? Do you approach or not?

Once you can answer 'No', and understand that you do not have to listen, you will be able to make that choice on your own terms.

DOUBLE EDIT: Just reread the koan and noticed something. It's interesting how as soon as the boy sees the monkey he aims his arrow. It's true, he went out to hunt, the explanation may end there. But I wonder if the author meant this as an implication that as soon as the monkey mind appears, the self typically pays immediate attention to it?

"Ooh ooh ooh ah ah ah"


Duh - man you guys are dense

Ah, but on whose terms did I explain the koan? Zac L's (and the others who hinted at the answer)? Or my own?
The context is different in that I analyse, not from the perspective of the boy, but from the perspective of one explaining a koan. I think that's fairly major.

You can't get a better explanation than this.

and The Power of Now is awesome, I only bought 4 books in my entire life and that one is one of them.

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An approach a day keeps the guru away.

tooothpick... What you have is good... REAL good.

But you just had to push it that little bit too far. You tried to explain it...
Wow to try and explain the koan from the perspective of the boy is indicative of a big EGO. To try and explain the koan from the Monkey's perspective is indicative of a big EGO. Is your EGO so monstrous, that you are above the boy and the monkey and all the characters in the Koan???

Hmmm...And for a second there I thought you almost HAD it figured out...

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i have no idea what this thing means or anyway i could even find out what it means.

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"You don't want girls to think you suck dick at fucking pussy"
-Seth (Superbad)

Firstly, the act of explaining the koan is not egocentric in itself. If one already knows and understands the koan, the ego is validated and believes it is correct, as does mine. I seek no more validation because I already have all the validation I need. My analysis is not analogous to the boy's analysis as, while the boy seeks the correct answer through it, I merely seek to explain that the correct answer is irrelevant. A completely different purpose.

It's arguable that the act of explanation is a product of the mind as well, and I agree. Understanding this koan has nothing to do with 'not using' your mind; life would be completely impractical if that were the case. Rather, it has to do with knowing that you do not have to use it. I chose to use my mind to put words upon a page.

I am fully aware that the koan (and Zen in general) is meant to bring about a state of mind rather than a logical, tangible answer. There is a problem with seeking that logical, tangible answer. There is not a problem with trying to explain the state of mind that you have achieved with a logical, tangible discussion.

And tweeby, if you quote me saying I didn't analyse it from the boy's perspective... don't then take that as meaning that I did.

Are you suggesting, Hobbit, that you do not use your mind?

Quite broad subjects. Do you have any resources I could read that explain why explaining a koan after you have grasped the state of mind it conveys is egocentric? Because that seems to me to be what you're saying. It probably isn't, but you can hardly fault me for that interpretation because you're dancing around actually saying anything.

The reason people are dancing around is because this Koan is clever in that 99% of the time when people try to interprett it they committ the error that the Koan is warning about.

To say too much about what this Koan is would destroy the purpose of the excersise.

You don't... try to interpret a koan, per se. You find the answer (through meditation or simply pondering it or whatever) intuitively. To me, trying to explain the state of mind it gave you doesn't clash with what the koan warned me about at all.