Yes! . . . clap, clap, clap . . .

Care to point how my reading of it is incorrect precisely? You don't need to correct my mistakes as this would render the Koan useless, rather point where I have actually gone wrong.

Are you saying that this Koan has something to do with understanding that the universe may allude us as our minds only work with certain principles in mind, meaning that uncertainty of the future, of the world we live in is something that must be accepted?



That's the two main theme's I'm getting from your story about the monk and the boy. And I can see how the uncertainty one plays a part, the child has to act, but act without knowing the full consequence and he has to accept that he does not know what the consequence will be for him to progress.

Invisiwill: The Koan is kind of a unique teaching tool to Buddhism, the most important thing about a Koan is not that you learn the answer; often the answer is irrelevant but often the reason behind the answer is symbolicaly or metaphorically important which means the point of a Koan is not the answer itself, but understanding the answer and where it came from.

But ultimatly a Koan is symbollic and the semantics come down to who-ever wrote the Koan in question. An answer may be spiritually true, logically sound and well thought out tying up all the angles perfectly.

But still if it's not what the original writer intended it to mean then it's not the "correct" answer.

You've made this decision from your assumptions that:
The monkey doesn't tell the boy, "Let me tell you the facts of life . . . " The monkey doesn't tell the boy, "Your parents will die." What did he say? What he says does not equal what you assume.
Not according to the monkey. You have completely disrespected everything he's said.
OK, you have now posed a very similar koan to that of the initial post and my example of the police man and the road. What is your action now? The AFC who takes the correct action will benefit. The one who does not will remain stagnant.

its a long answer but a simple one

Philosophers decision was sorta smart.. kill it

I would kill the monkey too, but not because of revange

you see, there are situations in which you cannot "do nothing about it", you cannot sit comfortably and wait for someone else to make a decision, Ezo was sorta right (in the beginning of the thread, and yes I read it all)

He already went hunting, so he took the responsibility of making a decision

any decision will have results, even the decision to do nothing (not kill the monkey)

therefore the answer is to KILL THE MONKEY, because anyways something bad will happen, but I set my mind to kill it, so I will kill it, coz that way I took responsibility over my action and didn't do nothing (which would still lead to consequences)

_________________
"StreetLight!! Stop seeing every problem in life like it's a chick you didn't hit on!"

The boy's clearly fallen for one of the monkey's compliance rings...

Don't be surprised if it ends with the monkey taking him home

Taking responsibility for your action is what you would do AFTER action. In your case, that would be killing the monkey. And if so, I suppose you'd be a responsible son and you'd prepare for a funeral and an eulogy.

Like the little kid in my story, Ezo struck an epiphany and was seriously 99.9999% close to hammering this koan home but he chickened out. Instead of acting, he only questioned.

Kasabi Im still on it but I have been thinking instead of wildly guessing on the forum...

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I'm not trying to be a dick Ezo, but you're being a Pick Up Snob in my opinion.

bbardot: you just reminded me about porn

Seriously, this is not about killing the monkey or not killing the monkey. It is about the boy learning, or understanding.

So the monkey tells him that his parents are gonna die, it sounds like it is based on the boys actions. Still the information given by the monkey does not say anything about when and by who's hand (if any) and it doesnt state that the other one will survive.

Above all, it doesnt say that the boys action can change that.

In the long run he cannot change it, they are both gonna die, him too and the monkey too, thats the way it goes.

So he can accept this. He must accept this, there is nothing he can do about it.

If he accepts that his parents will die, there is nothing threatening about the monkeys statement. Death is a natural part of life and it is useless to fear it, nobody escapes.

Suddenly the monkeys words hold no power over him. But they have made him stop for a second, realize the situation, listen to the monkey, accepted his fate and lost his fear of death.

Now, this makes it possible to take a conscious decision about whether he should kill the monkey or not.

The monkey will die as well eventually so the boy is only going to shorten the time on earth if he shoots.

The monkey has realized that as well. He knows that he will die and that the only effect the boy might have is to shorten his life. So the monkey is in the situation that the boy thought he was in (or his parents). In the long run it doesnt matter.

The boy should realize this too. He should identify with the monkeys situation (which might have been the monkeys intention all along). He was likely afraid that the monkey would shorten his parents lives and now he is threatening the monkey in the same fashion. He didnt like the monkey to decide the lifespan of his parents and probably the monkey wouldnt like that either. What gives him the right to decide over the monkeys lifespan?

We should treat others like we want to be treated ourselves. Can he shorten the monkeys life to avoid the monkey to shorten his mother/father whatevers life without being a hippocryt?

It is possible that he needs to hunt the monkey in order to survive but that means that he values his own life higher than the monkeys. Which shows that he can choose to be an egoist or to choose to treat the monkey as an equal. Gain an advantage on the expanse of others or live and let live.

Every action he takes will have a consequence. But its not about what he does, it is about why he does it. Is it an action that he understands or is it just an action?

Or he could realize that since the monkey is gonna die anyway he does not have to feel guilty about killing him.

These are some of the thoughts that I have been playing with as I was trying to understand it.

Short version: Listen (to the monkey), realize (that death is inevitabile), accept (that all things die), stop the fear (of dying), understand (if it matters in the decision he is gonna make), take a decision (if he is gonna kill or not).

I would leave the monkey alone. Live and let live.

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I'm not trying to be a dick Ezo, but you're being a Pick Up Snob in my opinion.

bbardot: you just reminded me about porn

Ezo, you're answer is well thought out, but I would expand on this.
and this.

This Monkey Buisness can be a really good routin, you know..

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"StreetLight!! Stop seeing every problem in life like it's a chick you didn't hit on!"

It is pretty annoying... The monkey mind is always present in my daily life, I find myself thinking about it whenever I have time. Its like it touches all of the things I think about. It is somehow related so my answer is not well thought out I might complicate it too much but I feel that it has a lot more to teach us than just one thing.

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I'm not trying to be a dick Ezo, but you're being a Pick Up Snob in my opinion.

bbardot: you just reminded me about porn

Guys, I'm sorry to push the issue, but It doesn't require that much thought.
Forget killing the monkey. Fuck the monkey. There's a possibilty the boy was on LSD and probably imagined holding a bow, ready to kill a talking monkey in a big green bonzai tree surrounded by peaking gray mountains, when in reality, he was some dumbass 19 year old druggie sitting in his dorm room with a half-empty box of stale pizza and a bottle of smirnoff, tripping off acid.

Who cares?

The monkey posed a THOUGHT (This is the key point) to the boy: If you kill me, your mother will die, and if you do not kill me, your father will die.

It's not about killing the monkey. WE ALL DIE. If the boy kills the monkey, the monkey is dead. Then, his parents will die years later, then the boy will die years later. We all die. That is the point. That's it. No more. Or, the boy can NOT kill said monkey, and everyone will die anyway. OR, the "boy" can wake up from his LSD trip, be groggy, throw up, and have his roommate come in to smells of puke, pizza, and vodka, and everyone will STILL DIE eventually.

"People try to find answers to things they already found the answer for".

It is what it is.

We all die. We all take shits. We all eat food. We all sleep on beds. We all have strengths. We all have weaknesses. We all have the ability to fuck thousands of women. We all have problems.

I...hate monkeys. =p.

Yes, how can we learn?

Many have assumed that we must either kill the monkey or DO NOTHING. The issue at hand isn't "kill or do nothing". What did the monkey say? . . . . It's "Kill" or "don't kill".
Are you satisfied with this bs? You are not!. . . and that's OK. If you swung a bat to the head of the wisest and most enlightened monk, even he will howl in pain and scream . . . and who knows? He might even go, "What the fuck?!?!?"


Nor does it say that his actions won't change that. Go beyond "Kill or do NOTHING".
Nice.
Yes, we already did that but now the monkey is just sitting there with that smug look on his face. Ezo, you were here already here . . . Your previous posts and this last one tells me that you are just ITCHING to do something. Just do it! Have courage! There is nothing too simple or nothing too crazy or nothing too weird. Just flow with what's in your heart and go forward. You listened, you accepted, you want to be learning . . . HOW??

By the way, I'm certain you've got this figured out. Let's allow others the joy of figuring this out on their own. PM me if you'd like . . .

I say let's analyze this thing
..blah blah, little boy goes hunting and saw a monkey, first thing he does is not think but instinctively aim the weapon at it
Then the monkey rook the boy out of his reality, first of all he spoke and then he told him to STOP, and think before you act

.. I just thought about another thing stop before you shoot me, the monkey already accepted the fact his going to get shot, he accepts death his not trying to stop the kid as a self defense thing he just want s the kid to realise something
"hey kid, youre about to make a choice but know, that no matter what you do, there are things that you cannot stop, like death, coz one of youre parents will die, it's up to you which, you cannot back down on it

so the meaning is... there are things which are inescapable, like death (monkey is not trying to escape it), and so can't you

_________________
"StreetLight!! Stop seeing every problem in life like it's a chick you didn't hit on!"