Ok ... Alot of posts in this post since it got revived. I'm going to try to address a few key issues here, because I think this topic is close... however without further clarification and conversation I can't expect you all to understand what I'm getting at.

Hobbits post was excellent from a naturals perspective IMO. In fact I remember when I first came across the community, showing the fastseduction site to my roommate, and laughing about how they had names for "what you do" when you talk to women... You see at one time I didn't realize that every guy didn't just do all these things. Also it's like he said to, I could care less if I "lose" a set... also as those of you who have met me know, I don't open alot... why? I don't care to that much, getting an attractive woman is nothing new, I've always been able to.


Lol, at Lockes Homeschooled kid analogy... that very environment you descirbed right there produced me. lol I'd at least like to think of myself as slightly more socially competent then the fellow in your illustration, even though I didn't read anything on PU until I read MM about a week before I started the MM workshops.


Rye Lee, I have to disagree with being a PUA being superior.

Name a couple of the greatest PUA's of all time, Say Style and Mystery... and compare thier lifes with those of any of 100s of naturals. Presidents, CEO's, Prime Ministers... Ghandi, JFK, Edison, Jordan, Pitt...

If you disagree with my assesment, and believe that being a PUA is superior then by all means continue as planned.

If not then lets delve deeper into the naturalization of sucess.

I think the big problem with PUA is it gets used as a crutch, people improve one aspect of your life, and don't want to go to far without 'mastering' the early steps... I see it as cop out... I see it as potential being squandered because of people being to much of pussies to apply everything the do in PU to thier ENTIRE life. Thats what I mean by naturalization.

No thats equating any part of the top couple percent of the population of naturals to the top .0001% of PUAs...If anything giving the PUA sample a better representation.

This is not intended to be a discussion for which is better

Thats silly, the community was created to emulate naturals...

Your sample size differs enormously. The sample size for the natural group is approximately half of the worlds population spanning all of the continents. Your sample size for the PUA group is MAYBE a couple million (being generous) and heavily favors the United States.

Lump that on top of the fact that considering the people that you referenced--Gandhi and Edison--you are also lumping in those "naturals" of the past as well, multiplying your measurement parameters by an even greater degree.

Considering PUA as a phenomenon of any significant note for less than 10 years, I'd say the comparisons you are drawing are so ridiculously biased to be irrelevant.
This discussion was opened specifically with that claim.
I was under the impression it was to improve relationships with women.

Naturals have confidence, PUA's have confidence, Rockstars have confidence, Evil-geniuses have confidence, George Bush has confidence, American Idol contestants have confidence. What does that all mean as far as superiority? Nothing.

Think before you post... if a community was started in an effort to become sucessful with women, do you think perhaps they might study and try to emulate those who are already sucessful with women?

Some of us have better things to do in our lifes then try to debate over something that may or may not have been implied in a thread someone started online over a month ago.

And by the way this discussion was not opened with that claim, it wasn't until a couple people got thier panties all in a bunch that someones not impressed that they can pull some tail (or in your case I'm guessing are trying to get to the point were you can) that this discussion came up...

If you need the validation that being a PUA makes superior, then believe that... Its your life.

I'm just getting tired of the mediocre masses thinking they are something special because they finally achieved average.

And with that I'm done with this thread, as it's gotten hijacked far away from it's intent... and I'm sure that Rye Lee is up for getting back to more constructive avenues...

So we shouldn't have confidence when approaching women?

Talk to some women about this concept. I think they will correct you very quickly dude.

Confidence helps you out in any area dude, not just picking up women. But women will be the first to tell you just how much confidence in a man makes a difference.

P1. The real McCoy is better than the mimic.
P2. PUAs mimic naturals.

Thus (C), naturals are better than PUAs.

think the big problem with PUA is it gets used as a crutch, people improve one aspect of your life, and don't want to go to far without 'mastering' the early steps... I see it as cop out... I see it as potential being squandered because of people being to much of pussies to apply everything the do in PU to thier ENTIRE life. Thats what I mean by naturalization......
.............
The good are lead by the great... Are you guys really satisfied? Do you really not feel that burning desire for greatness?

AFCAdam, if you read what I said, you'll see I said that confidence has nothing to do with superiority. I didn't say you don't need it to pick up women, I merely stated that many people can have confidence, and just because a PUA has confidence, this does not make him superior to any other type of man.

I just hate how this makes naturals sound superior to PUAs, when in actuality, PUAs have the advantage.

A natural doesn't have the self confidence and personal awareness that a PUA does. Sure, he is good with girls naturally, but he doesn't know how or why, so if a girl that he really likes crushes him, he doesn't recover easily.

A PUA has got boatloads of confidence and understands why he is good, what his flaws are and learns from them, instead of being hurt when he runs into failure, he grows from it and becomes stronger.

While I agree, I have to point out that not every natural or PUA behave that way. Naturals always get talked about in this community as not knowing what they are doing. My anecdotal knowledge tells me that all my natural friends picked up on things like proximity, negs, push/pull, and compliance tests. They even told one of my AFC about these things to try to help him... they just didn't have fancy names.

However, you believe it makes you superior. Because you know that someone without confidence cannot be superior, only positionally. Not in measure of true leadership. Therefore, confidence is a requirement to boost your superiority. Without confidence, it's impossible for a man to be superior. The flip side of the equation is, you can have confidence, not have positional leadership, yet still be superior if you are in fact the true leader. Now, what is the point you are trying to get to again? Just spit it out son.

AFCAdam, if you read what I said, you'll see I said that confidence has nothing to do with superiority. I didn't say you don't need it to pick up women, I merely stated that many people can have confidence, and just because a PUA has confidence, this does not make him superior to any other type of man.

A natural doesn't have the self confidence and personal awareness that a PUA does. Sure, he is good with girls naturally, but he doesn't know how or why, so if a girl that he really likes crushes him, he doesn't recover easily.

A PUA has got boatloads of confidence and understands why he is good, what his flaws are and learns from them, instead of being hurt when he runs into failure, he grows from it and becomes stronger.