I don't see indirect as feminine and direct as masculine and all that. You go direct during the day due to time. You typically have less time in these day scenarios so it's better to be direct early. If a chick is in your study group for a few hours at the library... Sure go indirect... You have a few hours... A random chick at a library.? Nah... By the time you're playing it slow and waiting for something to joke about or just playing it slow for a while she ends up suddenly leaving because she has to go somewhere else. You just don't have enough time to be indirect in these situations.

It's not a question on whether you think it is... it's a basic science from an anthropological perspective, biological perspective, and zoological perspective.

In every study of courtship women show courtship signals passively and try to get the man's attention. Men show an overt interest that shows they are more assertive.

Thus a man shows direct interest as the male counterpart and a woman shows indirect or passive interest via signals.

This has nothing to do with the energy level you come in at or anything else, it's simply about our roles in the courtship process.

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If this is your stance it's not the same as indirect means your taking a feminine role. No school of indirect proposes you not approach and just send signals. Indirect doesn't even mean you aren't actively engaging the chick. What youre describing with women making passive signals and even a steadfast MM guy are too very different things. Not to mention even MM says most of the game is played in comfort. So even that school acknowledges that for most of the courtship process you've shown direct interest. They just say you spend the first minutes being indirect. Minutes. No school says you meet a chick and spend an hour acting uninterested. Or not to approach. Or that most of the courtship process should be you sending indirect signals. I'm not a MM guy but what you're comparing feminine roles to is not what most indirect approaches or courtship that begins with an opinion opener look like unless done by someone who misses the point completely. Where are they advocating guys send signals like women do? Maybe I missed what you're saying

EVEN MM? LOL as soon as I see that I'm like we're done arguing. If you're going up and asking can I get your opinion on this you're being a girl plain and simple. If you walk up and can't simply show you're interested you're being a girl, if you have to walk up and create an excuse... you're being a girl.

MM is a waste... you should be making her uncomfortable you should be making her tense... that's where sexual chemistry comes in. You need tension fuck comfort, yeah she has to trust you but that's not exactly the same. You'll get laid more with 60 YOC then you will with MM... not by a little bit but miles. MM will get you talking to tons of girls... good for you, but it won't get you fucking them.

TENSION IS HOW WE GET LAID! It's how we make girls wet bro.

Positive emotional tension and flirting is what you should be doing to make women want to fuck you.

One of the biggest problems with the community is that we want to keep a girl comfortable well at some point she has to be uncomfortable, she needs that tension, we need to go too far. It sounds stupid right? Well we look stupid saying keep her comfortable the whole time when some guy who does shit we won't is fucking women.

Yeah you may convert a few extra women that wouldn't have been attracted to you to be attracted to you but if you focus on reading signs and approaching women this can create both a high batting average and the ability to create amazingly easy warm approaches that in fact make you one of the most attractive guys in the room. The other thing is just because you create attraction with a few extra girls doesn't mean you are closing those extra girls and this is the difference... you could attract 7 out of 10 women and close 1 out of 20 or you can attract 6 out of 10 women and close 2 out of 10 but always be closing.

That's the thing I'm not trying to get guys just talking to women, I'm trying to get guys laid and comfortable releasing that primal side of themselves that is actually needed.

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Doesn't matter, the OP is to petrified to do.......anything.

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I say "even MM" in the same way as saying "even a child does XYZ." MM is no authority, as I said, I'm not a MM guy. The next sentence obviously shows how I'm saying even that school in a lowly way, so have no idea why you'd respond like I'm praising them:
None of this has to do with feminine vs masculine roles. You keep saying plain and simple...can you explain how indirect is a feminine role? My response had points, and instead of responding to the points you responded to something else. Signals. Length of the courtship process. How is a guy approaching and handling an interaction for a short period of time a certain way, even close to a woman smiling at you from a distance?

Your response, speaks to the efficiency, which is fine, but has nothing to do with my question of feminine roles. When you say something is feminine, be able to say how...not just say that it is plain and simple, or compare it to "signals" and not say how. A chick smiling at you, is far far far different than a guy approaching with an opinion opener and doing all that shit. Now, thinking its bs is one thing, but comparing it like its close? I really want to hear the link, clear and directly, how these 2 things are the same. To say indirect is inefficient, is much different from saying its a feminine role, and you could just say its inefficient without going to the extreme.

This line here is telling: This could be indirect or direct. Indirect doesnt mean not approaching women. Indirect doesnt mean reading signs. The indirect guy is approaching. He's reading signs (IOIs and all that shit). He's trying to be the most attractive guys in the room (social proof and all that shit). And indirect doesnt mean not closing.
Again, all of this is in indirect material. Tension. Push pull. Where do people get that indirect means you're just being her friend or something and talking abt the weather? You're supposed to tease her, you're supposed to say uncomfortable things. Where do you think negs, breaking rapport, push pull, statement of interest and all that came from?

The indirect/direct thing is way too dogmatic. Maybe you can explain how indirect is feminine, but I havent seen that yet. Indirect guys say shit like "dont do direct, every guy says she's hot." Direct guys say shit like "dont go indirect, every guy asks like he's not interested." You dont need to go extreme with masculine vs feminine and all that if you think direct is more efficient. How you approach in the first 5 minutes has nothing to do with whether you're masculine or feminine in the hours, days, weeks, months or years that you may spend with a chick. There's not a book that says send signals and dont approach. Or dont close. Or dont use tension. Or be her friend. Its the same shit being taught. If you see 2 guys at a bar, approach different chicks, both interactions should be the same energy 5-10 minutes in. If guys are spending 20 minutes spinning their wheels, its because they arent pulling the trigger, not because of what they opened with. I have no idea where this myth of what opener you use or whether you show interest 1 second in or 10 mins means tension and closing arent important.

Yep.
Yep. These are feminine approach techniques.
Yep. A girl flipping her hair constantly, shifting in her seat, breaking eye contact with you as she smiles, taking off from the bar to head to the bathroom to collect her nerves, etc.

Yep.

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Arch can you explain how it is feminine ? Just a clear sensible answer.... take your emotions out of it and just logic

Because shocking honesty, which I have always advised here (see Hanky Moody in Californication) is dominant and masculine, and hiding intentions or making excuses is more feminnie. That's what women do when they come up to ME.

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I can actually follow that logic. But in that case how do you reconcile tactics or "game playing" of any kind? For e.g. you may advise honesty and not hiding intentions...but if a guy wants her to be his gf you'd say let her bring it up. Or if a girl is pulling away you'd say make her jealous..go cold yourself. I'm for honesty...that's why I'm surprised you'd say this when you advise to play games and hide intentions many times

Right. I'm just talking about the initial pickup.

There is indeed game play involved later (letting her bring up exclusivity, being a challenge, etc) You can't show your cards too soon for women with options, offer out roses and fancy dinners, poetry, etc.

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I don't see the difference. It just sounds like saying men shouldn't hide their intentions....except at xyz phase. It's just arbitrary. If masculine role is to be honest and not hide your intentions there shouldn't be a point where you take the "fem" role. And if you accept situations where you play the game, and hide your intentions...why not give other guys that seem leeway when it comes to their initial approach? It can't be the feminine role when someone approaches but not a feminine role when a guy hides his intentions a week later.

Shocking honesty and confidence are dominant traits in pickup, not excuses and hemming and hawing. And letting the girl bring up exclusivity and nagging about relationships is ALSO the dominant frame.

It's all congruent.

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Flirting isn't indirect bro... Flirting is a natural part of courtship... in fact when I flirt I say fucked up shit that I pretty much mean.

"if that's going to be how it is, it stops after tonights one night stand."
"it's ok you're just using me for sex."
"You know you like it when a guy pulls your hair."

I also grab girls throats, pull their hair, grip their hips, grab their ass, and all sorts of other shit. Maybe I don't do it to start the conversation but I definitely get edgy early on because tension is where it's at.

Walking up to a girl using passive auditory statements to start a conversation is indirect, this is the argument I have... yeah you're going to flirt and yeah there is going to be a process but that doesn't mean you walk up and ask what you should buy your gf for her Bday.

We can sit and argue this or that but I've read books by anthropologists, zoologists, and biologists, darwin's book... they all basically show the same thing.

1. Woman sends signals to get attention.
2. Man recognizes signals.
3. Man approaches women showing interest
4. Man escalates

Now you can say well every approach is showing interest... well yes every approach is showing interest. However some approaches are feminine and some are masculine. This isn't a question it's a statement.

Masculine approach should be more direct.

For instance a woman interested in a man goes and stands by a girl and waits for a moment to start a conversation.... this is called a sexual overture.

The male version of this is to walk up and ask for a chicks opinion. Yeah it's showing a little more interest but it's not showing interest.

Stop being ashamed of your interest, there is no shame in being a man and wanting to fuck a woman.

You should however be ashamed if you walk up and use indirect statements to open a girl to get laid...
I've had girls try and talk to me in a number of ways from trying to ask if they know me to, standing next to me to bumping into me... I mean the list really is massive.

The point is you can be a man and walk up and introduce yourself as we should in the courtship process or you can be a chick and ask her what you should buy your sister.

The thing is you can say using the whole "can I have directions" isn't indirect or you can be honest. Walking over and showing overt interest is masculine.

We can sit here and you can say over and over well I don't feel it's feminine and that's fine. I'll fuck women, you can be one. It's sounds really weird but for millions of years men have acted one way and women have acted another way. Men have walked up to girls and women have waited for men to walk up and show interest... modern day courtship practices would make someone 100 years ago SICK about stupid we are.

5000 years ago? Yeah they'd be disgusted... and if you want to say well it's not 5k years ago fine... but we are basically the same as someone 5k years ago biologically speaking, yeah we have more food and are better nourished but we're wired exactly the same... and if you look at the hunter and gatherers say 50 years ago in papua new guinea we are wired identical to them and they behave in the way I have said... walk up and the man goes after the woman... the woman either excepts or she doesn't.

When you walk up if your intention is to close her it should be pretty obvious when you walk up to her, why? Because direct is ALWAYS BE CLOSING! Indirect is let's make an excuse to talk to a woman and see if she likes you, that's how girls do shit bro!

Walking up to a girl with an indirect open beyond is being feminine.

We're not talking about flirting, or anything else.

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wtf I just finished reading the rest of the thread...

There is no games man... that's the problem. Too many guys are playing games.

I personally don't understand why guys play games. Of course I believe every man should get all he needs and wants from his life on his own however if you want a relationship with a girl tell her. Fuck it... she says no fine move the fuck on. THat's the difference between being a male and a female... the answer comes you accept it you move on.

Guess what happens when you ask for a relationship with a girl and she's not into it and so you move on? She chases the fuck out of you. This isn't me playing a game this me being straight, sorry you had your shot.

Now if you get all you need from life by going off and doing your own thing, whether it's reading, going to school, shooting photography, dancing, exercising, golf, or whatever the hell. When you are doing a bunch of shit for you all week long, you're off doing your own damn thing being you... whatever it is you love and marching to the beat of your own rhythm. Then you won't be looking for relationships but you'll have a few find you.

That's the thing about it guys... when your a man and you got life rolling for you... relationships aren't a need. Intimacy isn't something you need, you're having a great life and enjoying everything. So there is no games, there is no bullshit, you ask a girl if she wants to be with you she'll likely be all over you and super wet by how you are and who you are.

Instead you guys say games... fuck that I don't play games. I don't do drama, I find that shit to be a waste of time.

I say it how it is because I'm not a chick, if you want to be with me cool if not, there are plenty of other amazing women out there.

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