Hello

I'm still new to all this material - please go easy on me!

Please tell me about "masculinity", "strength", "leading", "dominating".

OK, so we're told that women are wired to be attracted the Alpha Male. And that women need a man be "strong" and for him to "lead" her. And apparently she needs to be in some ways "dominated", particularly in the bedroom.

Here's the thing, now that I really think about it, I'm not sure that I actually aspire to "lead" or "dominate" when I'm in a relationship.

Ultimately, in terms of power, I broadly seek a relationship between equals. Does that make me GAY? It's a serious question!

Taking this question on the chin, no I don't find men physically attractive, but yes I do find women (i.e. let's be fair some women) attractive. Hmm... so maybe I'm not homosexual exactly. But it doesn't sound like I'm going to get far with hotter/in demand women that I'm likely to find attractive unless I learn to "lead" and "dominate", yes?

In all honesty the relationship I seek is one of partnership. I seek two different people with different energies, but pulling in the same direction. I seek mental and physical intimacy. I seek deeply understanding, encouraging, facilitating and supporting each other. I seek bringing each other's strengths and weaknesses together into a strong partnership where to some extent you lean on and even depend on each other... but where you enjoy each other's individuality and encourage each other to be themselves.

Do I seek to be "mothered" is that what's going on? Honestly? ... No I don't. That would be smothering.

A successful, strong, confident man can be Type A or Type B personality. And both seem to get sex. So what's going on here?

Battle between the sexes
I see a lot of married relationships that consist of endless power battles where two people locked into "I'm right and you're wrong". It can start with adversarial banter, move through bickering, into arguments, raised voices, long-term campaigns pulling in different directions and can end in full-scale rows and blood on the carpet.

I see relationships like this and I think maybe it works for you guys, but if I even end up like that take me outside and shoot me. All that conflict looks and sounds like frickin Hell on Earth to me. Apart from anything else what a waste of energy. What a waste of life.

Take pickup guru Black Phillip. I just watched several minutes of his shouty adversarial videos. I just can't stomach that stuff.

What is slightly worrying is that a lot of women call me "sensitive". This used to bother me for a fair while, but it turns out that's that's part of what women love about me and I have done much better with girls once I embraced this side of my personality.

But also worrying is that now that I think of it, a lot of my GFs have in their different ways been slightly "tomboy-ish". For me too much masculinity is suddenly a turnoff but an athletic, physical, lightly toned, tallish woman is definitely a turn on.

So am I just... kinky?

To be fair in general women tend more to fall in love with me than want to fuck my brains out - which can be tedious and inconvenient because there are times when, as a man you sometimes just want some uncomplicated sex. But if someone is clearly deeply in love with you and you fuck them and chuck them well, that's pretty much "abuse". And even if you can get away with it, even if she's not complaining, abusing someone is not a good feeling.

Anyhow, back to "masculinity", "strength", "leading", "dominating"... what am I missing?


EDIT: Is this site purely for advice on how to successfully pick up and fuck loads of women, or does the advice given here also map onto meaningful relationships? Honest question.

Don't confuse a leader with a boss.
You're expected to lead, not to oppress.
A couple wants to go out and eat.

Here's most men:
Him: "So where do you want to eat?"
Her: "I don't know"
Him: "Come on you must want something"
Her: "Maybe that nice restaurant down the street. Or pizza. Or.. hmm"
Him: "So what do you want?"
*30 minutes and much frustration later they get somewhere*

How it should be:
Him: "Let's go to that new sushi place"
Her: "Ok"
or
Him: "Lets go to that new sushi place"
Her: "Don't think I want sushi today"
Him: "A'right, italian it is"
Her: "Cool"

That's a very basic example of leading. It's like a dance. The man leads. The woman chooses if she wishes to follow.
A relationship is not and should not be a power-struggle. You're in it together, not against each other.
Broadly put, yes. You need to be a masculine man to date a feminine woman.
Other than that description being a bit on the mushy side, I don't see a problem with the core of your idea.
They are living hell. And that's the result of people with poor boundaries. Some prefer to be in a shit relationship than in no relationship. That's sad, but widely spread.
If your girls have been more masculine that's because you're probably a bit too feminine. Nothing particularly wrong with you, but men in general.
The problem with that is that women don't want to be the masculine energy in a relationship. They want to be the feminine. And when they're constantly forced to be the former, frustrations occur. And arguments sparked from casual banter. And living hell. Obviously this can be true the other way around too.

To put it in crude terms that's because they don't get wet for you. You're not "man" enough. You need to know when's the proper time to grab a woman by her throat, slam her against the wall and make her legs shake.
But that has to be part of who you are if you want to experience that need of theirs to fuck your brains out. Not just a trick you pull out every now and then.

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Well I beat you up a little in your other post, so I'll try not to here.

No, you are not turning gay.

This is caused by the more common affliction, Lack-a-pussy.

It's okay to be sensitive, but it does need to be regulated.

LACK-A-PUSSY.

A frequent and sometime fatal disease, its causes are lack of use of the male organs resulting in extreme neediness, hairy palms, and wheezing.

It causes a man that doesn’t have much confidence tol bug the living shit out of some poor girl just for a little attention.

The combinations of these two problems WILL compound each other, causing you to give up the male persona.
The only known remedy is YOU!

I think that a lot of it comes down to perception and self-validation. Let me explain again....

If you start off from the mental place that you are an amazing guy, and that you don’t need a partner (or anyone else for that matter) to validate you, then you are on the right track. The woman you become attracted to becomes important for you, but not necessarily 'everything'. You don’t depend on her to make you feel important, or like a man, or even loved, because those things are already part of you. Therefore as a man you would still be capable of rational thought, and capable too of knowing that your relationship MAY come to an end, but you know that wouldn’t be the end of the world, because you are a slick enough person to find someone else worthy of your affection.

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Spot on.
Yeah.

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Get in the squat rack and load that fucking barbell as much as you can handle. Lift heavy shit. That'll teach you anything and everything there is to know about being a man.

Your mind changes when you've got 405 pounds on your back and you pull those safety rails out from underneath you. You figure out this mentality of "Figure it out!"

Be a fucking man. Handle your shit. You've got 405 pounds on your back and you're stuck at the bottom of a squat position. You know what happens? Your brain shifts into figure it the fuck out mode.

That's what it means to be a man.... I'm not talking about lifting heavy shit- although that helps.

I'm talking about when you've got the weight of the world on your shoulders, you do what ever you've gotta do to hold that motherfucker up. Make decisions. Sink or swim. Fight or flight.

Being a man is to be the warrior.

You can split the chores and shit if that's what you're talking about being equals... but if you want pussies dripping, be that fucking warrior.


(As a public service announcement: Don't try and squat 405 out of the gate. Get your form down first. It's not my fault if you blow out your knees or fuck up your back. Again, figure it out.)

The question is: How successful have you been with women up until this point with the current philosophies and theories you've been living by?

Of course what you're saying sounds reasonable.. You've done all you could to rationalize it to yourself in such a way that it makes perfect sense. Is there anything wrong with it? Absolutely not. Are you over thinking? Without a doubt. The thing is, Beta Males have always gotten a woman, but have they always gotten their choice of women? Usually they don't. Most beta males will take on the women that the so called "Alphas" have left to them. Unless you're in a society that encourages early arranged marriage to virgins.

The advice on the forum is only leading you to water.. What you do when you get there is completely up to you. Just know that the thoughts you're speaking on here aren't at all "new" "unique" or "original", it's the voice of almost every beta male that has ever came to the forum.. Many haven't articulated it like you have, but they think the exact same way. And most of them aren't having the success with women that they want.

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First-up, I'm not going to respond to ALL of the comments. Don't think that means I'm ignoring them. Some comments are inaccurate, others are spot on but I need to reflection further on them. Others are yes, spot on.


LEADING

From r.c
> You're expected to lead, not to oppress.

Yes, this makes perfect sense.
If I understand you correctly, it means: make suggestions... take initiative... have a plan... have a world-view/'frame' but show respect feelings and adapt towards her best interests.

Yes, I totally agree about boundaries - they are absolutely critical. And once bad habits have formed around weak/fuzzy boundaries it can indeed become a "living hell" of perpetual conflict that can be hard to transform.


DOMINATING
I do have a problem with the word "domination" as it depends EXACTLY what is meant by that.

If it means "rule" and "control" that makes me uneasy. You see, one of the most toxic relationships I know is between to people I know extremely well.

The man demonstrates a large number of features of a narcissist. It's complicated. She his wife is a "willing" victim and exhibits many of the symptoms of being a co-dependant.

What do I mean by narcissistic?
In all social situations he is very loud and controlling of conversation. His presence is very full-on. The conversation would be very different without him. Sometimes, particularly in a larger group, he will go into 'periscope'/people-watching mode where he studies everyone with great intensity, almost as if studying creatures in a laboratory.

But he is off-the-scale charming and has a huge gift of making people feel "special and wanted" and can be extremely warm - but only when it suits him. He can switch that on and off like a lamp. He can be extremely moody and bad tempered if things don't go his way. He is highly articulate and makes a ferocious and intimidating adversary. He has a sense of 'grandiosity' and not only plays by his own rules but enjoys violating rules of society. He likes to stay aloof and as a matter of principle never tells anyone what he does for a living. He will share small fragments of his inner life with a widely distributed number of people (mostly girls). He likes to stay mysterious and even his closer male friends never quite know what's going on in his life.

He loves dressing up with outlandish attention-seeking clothing, that are so extreme that they can look extremely camp - but that just helps him play mind games including making it easier to open conversations with women.

I have known him for a long, long time. He is a serial seducer of women, probably the most effective taht I have ever met. However because they are married and his main love is his wife, he choses to never, ever, EVER to french kiss nor have penetrative sex with any of them. (Yes, it sounds unbelievable but I happen to know this for a genuine fact).

So what he does is to go to endless parties, festivals etc etc where he *mentally* seduces other women. He is about 55 and these women are off-the-scale, good-looking often about half his age. He particularly loves anyone who looks extremely 'cool'. It's a buzz for him. I guess he is kind of addicted to the chase, the closeness, the validation, the rush and I don't think he could stop even if he wanted to. But he doesn't want to! "What are we but the sum of all our connections?" he said to me recently. And BOY does he have a large number of connections!

Interestingly good and early in the conversation, he tells the super-hot young women that he is mentally seducing that he is happily married. And most of them of course think he's not serious about the wife and that a sexual relationship is on offer. Except that it isn't.

He then - in order to feel less guilty - also tells his wife (almost) everything. He claims that he has a very "special" relationship with his wife and that she knows that she can trust him. And for now at least she probably can. But as you can imagine, this 50 year old woman feels somewhat insecure in their relationship.

Yes, it's her free choice to stay with him (and their 2 children) but the degree of "domination" seem pretty unhealthy to me. I mean he holds all the power.

And on her part, because she is being so dominated, at a deeper fundamental level, she doesn't really know who she is.

Interestingly part of the way he "dominates" his wife is with his "frame". His personality totally overwhelms her personality - sometimes just with raw enthusiasm. She is totally besotted with him. She confessed to waiting for him to come home "to see what mood WE are in".

He is a broadly very good natured guy. His conscious motives are all for the best. If some of the women he (mentally) seduce fall in love with him and want more, well that's just a bit of collateral damage that he obviously tries to avoid.

He is totally addicted to the hunt. He is addicted to doing something that makes his wife deeply insecure. Unsurprisingly she hates going to parties with him and mostly refuses to do so. She has told me that she knows if she tried to stop him then she would lose him.


WHY AM I SAYING ALL THIS?

I know this site is devoted to picking up/having sex with women as effectively and efficiently as possible. And no doubt many of you guys here are exceeding good at getting to have sex with vast numbers of women as a result. Some of you will rush to question my motives and crush my logic and question my "masculinity" or whatever else.

But my motives are sincere. I feel unclear about a lot of the issues raised.
Yes surely it's good for a man to be 'masculine' but what does 'masculinity' really mean? What different flavours are there? And are some of those flavours that are in fact deeply toxic.

What about the OP?
Yes, I know I need to change my 'game' and raise my game. And yes, I know I have a lot to learn/think about. But I need to get clear on exactly where all this is heading!

Please be aware though that I have probably been under-playing my hand somewhat. In many ways my game is "superb" according so some close friends I've been sharing some of this stuff with. It's just that there are gaps that I do need to address...

Anyhow please can we focus on the issues raised, rather than trying to beat me up.


'Type A' or 'Type B'?

I'll share one more thing with you. An exceedingly good-looking woman told me this story. She was brought up with loads of macho, risk-taking, maintain climbing, hearty, loud, high-achieving, larger than life, leading not following, competitive (Type A) 'masculine' men. She a charming, warm, sensitive, kind but fairly feisty woman, who had been an olympic athlete. She cute and with ample breasts and a figure to die for. At the time she also had vast numbers of guys including many 'high status' guys chasing her.

But who did she go for? She told me that the defining moment was when a large group of them were all on a big walk in the mountains. They came to a small river and all the men just charged straight through. However this one particular guy - who knew his way around the mountains - stopped and took his boots and socks off before crossing. He said afterwards that his rationale was "There is no point in getting my feet wet all day - that's just plain stupid". Her reading was: Wow here is a different kind of masculinity. The type that isn't always showing off, that isn't always competing and having to keep proving and reproving their masculinity. She fell for the guy on the spot.

Anyhow I tell that story to broaden the over-simplistic assumption that hot girls always go for overtly dominant, competitive Type A, "alpha male" men.

Right, times up.

I need to get on with my life and go chase some skirt

I think you have already made up your mind, and this thread isn't really about seeking advice but rather talking about how awesome your view already is. Fact is, most people's ego prevents them from seeing things that contradict preconceived ideas. You think X is bad and Y is good, so you notice more bad cases of the former and good moments of the latter far more than vice versa.

So if you don't need help, why are you here?

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They call me the cat whisperer, cause I know exactly what the pussy needs.

Reading this thread I have no idea what question OP is actually asking or trying to get across.

Yes, consider her interest and bring a solution that's appropriate for both of you.
Dominating is one of those things that this community tends to take out of context. You don't have to literally dominate over a woman, you just need to have a dominating outlook on life.
That implies dominating your problems and overcoming them. Controlling tense situations instead of losing your cool. Ruling over your fears and acting in spite of them, etc.
And this doesn't necessarily apply on a macro scale as much as it does on a micro scale. Think interviews, asking for a raise, learning to use the word "no", buying stylish clothes that "just aren't you".
It's pretty obvious but the more you push the habit of making excuses out of your life the more successful you'll become.

As far as the bedroom goes, control and rule are highly endorsed. Women tend to have a more submissive nature. There's a reason men like that turn them on.
That's basically an anecdote. Not exactly relevant.

Like I said before, it's about teaching men how to become attractive. That tends to not happen overnight and self-improvement is at the core of that. Social, emotional and financial.
Women are not the goal. A balanced, happy and successful life is.
So the point of the story is that being smart is more attractive than being a caveman? Who knew?
No but seriously, your views are a bit distorted.
No one said "be loud". No one said "charge head first into a cave and fist fight a bear". That's not masculinity that's plain stupidity.

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My in depth texting & dating guide.
There's no such thing as shit-tests.
How to keep a girl.

> That's basically an anecdote. Not exactly relevant.

The point of the anecdote is that it provides evidence that some toxic personalities are jaw-droppingly attractive to women. Since you raise the issue, I can name four other guys all of whom I know reasonably well who have remarkable track records of getting off with women and I have only recently realised that they all fit into a pretty similar pattern as the guy described above.

Yes, I am aware that half the guys here think I am learning nothing and ignoring all the advice offered and, and, and. However is this entirely untrue and frankly that is their problem. I don't expect many people to bother to fully read nor resonate with the anecdote(s) above, but to the extent than they fail see the significance of the anecdotes illustrates the extent to which I need to avoid their advice.

The point here is that I am trying to get clear on to exactly where I am setting my compass. And to where I am absolutely NOT setting my compass. Like I say, as a noob I am learning a lot of useful/helpful stuff already, including in this thread. But this whole areas does seem like an extraordinarily treacherous path and one needs to be true to oneself, so I definitely pick and choose what is to be on my journey.

All input welcome!

Ship,

Just by your writing alone, I feel you are very intelligent, a straight thinker, conservative, just, fair.
I'm sure you are reading, absorbing, categorizing. Putting everything in their own little piles - Bullshit - Logical advice - Golden nuggets you'd like to use in the near future.

Very logical.

But that's the problem.


Women Are Not Logical .

Women come pre-wired to think and act based upon their emotions. When a man starts using logic and reason to persuade a woman, right away you are fucked (not in the good way.

Women simply want to have fun and enjoy the moment. There is no thinking or following logical plans when it comes to having fun.

They want to follow YOU to the fun. They expect YOU to lead them to it.

So many men are only focused on getting serious or being serious. They don’t know how to just relax and have a good time. They over-think the fuck out of everything and ruin the fun.

Women want to be in a fairyland, full of rainbows, warm hugs, sunshine, and earth shattering orgasms.

THEY - Do - NOT - GIVE - A - SHIT how they got there, only that they ARE there.

Using logic on their fun to them, is like throwing sand on their cookies. No fun.

Keep that logic Ship, It'll likely earn you lost of money.

But when it comes to women, leave the logic at work, and just have fun.

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Anecdotes are called anecdotes when they aren't good enough to be evidence. Actual evidence is hundreds of cases, not your five or six observations because again you likely ignore cases that go against your world view.

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LMAO...seriously? If you can attract a woman to the point of where she's willing to have sex with you but can't get a woman to want a meaningful relationship with you, that shows that there is a problem with your character.

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