Can you expand on this?

Yes I did! And I'm now pretty sure that was a mistake. However I think I read somewhere that snogging someone too early is also to lose. So what should I have done?
Can you say more? I kindof half understand but I don't really understand what that would mean in practice. Can you give some examples?

In the pickup game, rejection is just something that exists. I have more women not interested in me when I approach them than I have women interested in me. At the same time, I'm not at a shortage when it comes to women. It's because I'm not afraid of rejection. Protecting yourself from rejection is something that holds you back.Believe it or not, women are more forgiving of your attempts at escalation than they are of you not escalating at all. Think about it this way, you saw potential out of a hug. Don't you think that they'll see potential if you were to kiss her? It's basic escalation. If a girl is willing to walk with you, on a date, you should be able to realize that she'll likely hold your hand. If she'd hold your hand, she'll allow you to put your arm around her. If she lets you put your arm around her, she'll likely let you kiss her. You just have to make it happen.

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Yes. This is all true. I do need to get my head around escalation much better. I am slightly hazy about what steps are seen by a woman as being larger than others. (e.g. to me holding hands is way more intimate than arm around waist but what do I know?). Any suggested vids/reading on this?

Yes, I'm still not clear how exactly, but clearly I should have escalated sexually in some way despite the fact the she was saying "DON'T do anything!" (i.e. "don't kiss me"). I can't decide whether I should have kissed her or not and if so in what way I can't decide, but yes if nothing else I should have taken charge of the situation, even if I risked a slap (?!)

Slap? What?

The only thing you "risk" is her pulling back.

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I dunno she's a darned feisty lady, let me tell you.
She might well have given me a firm slap, but with luck possibly only playfully...!

I now wince at how weak I was at the time. Let's not go there!

* * *

But I have been reflecting on all this. And I fear a lot of guys in this PUA universe operate at quite a shallow level and either consciously or covertly believe that life/women/relationships are ALL about the physical level - the sex. I suspect many of you guys secretly despise women for the power they hold over you and yet being so pathetically 'game-able' - sometimes frankly it's hard not to.

OK but the more and more I have reflected on this, the more I now realise that even if what you are seeking is a deep, meaningful romantic relationship, it's not enough to be a decent human being, to be sincere/honest & charming, to get on really well, to make each other laugh, to share ethical values and interests, to make each other feel great when around each other....

...one does ALSO need to tap into a woman's raw, animal, sexual desire. Ultimately, if you don't turn her on then someone else will. Maybe a relationship is a bit like a three legged stool:
A) Mind (intellect/emotions),
B) Body (sex) and
C) Spirit (morals/ethics/soul - your highest self)

i.e. If any one of those legs of the stool is broken, the entire relationship becomes unstable.

My other insight is that this sex does needs to be sprinkled with a bit of lightness & fun. Obvious once you say it, but I had slightly forgotten...

Good food for thought.

J


PS For the record, yes I have been going on some dates with other girls. Yes I have deleted the contact details for the lady discussed in this thread.

That couldn't be further from the truth. Anyone doing well with women will immediately dismiss that claim. In fact, focusing on the physical is one of the main reasons guys fail in the first place.
Women are all about the emotion and that's generally the catalyst between amazing sex and sex you wish you didn't have. What she feels on a physical level is enhanced or undermined by what she feels on a mental level.

But that's sex. And before you get there you need to be seen as a sexual option. If not, you're seen as a friend. And the difference lies between men who are not afraid to express their sexuality, and men who are.

And in the end, sex is the most intense emotional and physical contact between two people. That's the reason it's so important and that's what guys are usually incapable of understanding and implementing.
There's a reason why most topics are "Help, we're friends but I want more" and not "Help, we're having so much sex but I want friendship too".

And by the way, emotion is not restricted to love and mushy feelings. It's also desire, lust, passion and surrendering control to a man who you confidently know will lead.
If they hold any power over you it's because you're giving it to them.

Yes J, obviously you are not entitled to a woman's intimacy simply because you're quote on quote nice to her.
So yes, also tap into her sexual nature and you're no longer a potential friend, but a potential lover. I underlined "also" because in essence, a relationship has very much all the characteristics of a friendship, plus intimacy.

However, and this is important, you never go from one to the other. You start as either one or the other.

_________________
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My in depth texting & dating guide.
There's no such thing as shit-tests.
How to keep a girl.

The fifty year old dude longing after a woman who has zero interest in him claims to have figures out how to attract women with "spirit." Translation: he is mad a bunch of people said he lost.

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It rather depends on what you mean by "doing well with women". About half of my really good friends are men and about half are women. A lot of men can't seem to do that. Is that "doing well with women"?

I know a number of men who are extremely good at getting women into bed FAST on a "fuck and chuck" basis. Does that count? Some of them are widely loathed human beings - by both sexes - but are sufficiently manipulative to keep seducing and seducing and seducing, ideally with ever new ladies. (Fwiw, A married guy I know very well does this endless, endless, endless mental seduction, just for the buzz but I know for a fact that he never physically cheats on his wife.) Very often these charming guys who are "super-successful" with women are either sociopaths or narcissists. This type of person is a deeply, deeply flawed human beings (think: vain, manipulative, arrogant, self-serving, aloof, deeply selfish, attention-seeking etc etc) who are ultimately not pleasant to be around and will always, without exception end up destroying all close relationships around them.

Personally I have quite a lot of women interested but I have a history of being picky - too much for my own good no doubt. But I am also aware how easy it is to get women who you happen to get on with sexually interested in you, when you are NOT interested in them! It's very easy to become rather manipulative and to send "buying signals" to women who if one is being honest one has no genuine interest in, beyond a quick shag. But if you sense that she is falling in love with you, then in my book that is deeply unethical.

It's just when one gets too keen that one becomes "weak" and the wheels come off and one crashes and burns horribly.

When looking at the whole thing dispassionately - to give context I am trained as a biological scientist with an interest in evolutionary theory - I do find it curious how "binary" the woman's mind seems to be. i.e. The longer two humans have been friends the harder it is for them to become sexual partners. i.e. If you are in the friend zone you tend to get stuck there. It is very rare for two people who just like each other to build a friendship and seamlessly just fall for each other and start having sex. From first principles I don't really understand why that should be. Surely a close friendship is a form of emotion. But how come it is so hard to use it as a platform to build a sexual/romantic relationship?

Likewise, although you do sometimes get girls who are up for sex with their friends AKA "fuck buddies" it is remarkably unusual too. Men on the other hand are in general much less binary and can handle the blur between a sexual relationship and a friendship relationship much better than women.

> There's a reason why most topics are "Help, we're friends but I want more" and
> not "Help, we're having so much sex but I want friendship too".
Agreed but precisely what is that reason?
When you say sex is all about emotion for a women, this I find this confusing. How come a really intense friendship doesn't count as "emotion" in this context? How come genuinely liking, admiring, valuing, feeling close to, really understanding, someone doesn't seem to count?

WTF - Are you just trying to be offensive or are you failing to read?

I have accepted that:
A) I played a diabolically weak hand and
B) that as a result I have lost this particular girl

And have been looking for lesson to learn, and there have already been many. However at no point did I claim to have figured out how best to do anything with "spirit", I merely alluded to its existence and relevance to relationships. Maybe that unnerved you?

Your comments are ill-informed, inaccurate and agist.

Boom. That's not a misogynistic outlook, either. That's addressing basic science. Ship seems to have been tainted by the all too common puritanical outlook that dooms U.S. men to a life of five finger rosey.


This is spot on.

When I sleep with a woman the first time and toss her on the bed and whip her around, her eyes light up. "Holy fuck I love how dominant you are", etc. No asking "what position next, princess?" Just leading.

Do not be afraid to tap into your sexuality. Do not be afraid to then express it. Your honesty, and your congruency with your desires are more attractive to women than hiding your intentions like a sneaky creep.

The other night, the bartender I like a lot (and have posted about on this forum) texted me while I was having sex with my gf. I told my gf. My gf told me to answer the text while I was going down on her. The bartender asked what I was doing. I told her point blank she was invited over for a threesome. I did not hear back for two days. Then I get this text today:

"Next time".

Do not be afraid to be honest with women, even if it shocks them. It is this cocky, playful attitude that will have them swarm you.


No, I think women are more intelligent than men, and that the male species is an embarrassment for the most part.

The posters on this forum are a welcome relief, IMHO.

Also, I don't look at it as "power" more like sexual polarity based on science. Act masculine, and you will attract feminine women. The stronger the polarity, the better everything is.



I think you are right, but I also think you are overthinking it. You should not START with a woman with any, and I mean ANY thoughts of a relationship. An attractive woman sees these kinds of schmucks all day long and will friend-zone them instantly.

You need to make her orgasm, a lot. Lead in the bedroom. Give her space. Remain slightly mysterious. Minimal texting. Remain emotionally centered and playful. Make HER work for it a bit. Make her orgasm some more. Rinse, repeat. That's all you have to do.

Soon, she'll be wanting to have "the talk".

All you can control, in the end, is you.

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Yes, I'm sure this does work. But is it not also quite dishonest & manipulative?

Why would you consider this dishonest and manipulative?

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Science is just science. Acting/being a dominant male will simply attract the women you like.

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- Pretending at the start that you don't want a relationship, when clearly you do!
- Deliberately being aloof i.e. "remaining slightly mysterious" "Making HER work"
- Your reasons for giving her orgasms sounds very calculated.

Because most men try to befriend their way into romance. You meet a woman you're attracted to and instead of acting on attraction, you suppress your sexuality and masculinity by "playing it safe" in order to not "scare her off". You don't play to win you just play to not lose.

That's the reason. Most men treat women as if they're asexual. They are not.
I'm highly certain a fair number of people genuinely like, admire, value, feel close to and really understand their parents/siblings. Yet they don't really want to fuck them, do they?


1) You do not, and should not ever clearly want a relationship with someone prior to sharing any intimacy with them. It's a clear sign of starvation. You don't buy a car without taking it for a testdrive, you don't build a roof without having a house, and you damn sure don't want to be best friends with a dude you barely had a beer with.
So there's nothing to "pretend". Normality is letting inter-human relationships evolve on their own. And if your intentions are romantic yet you act as if they were coming from a place of platonic friendship, then don't be surprised when you end up with a friend.

2) It's not "deliberately being aloof". It's being centered and having a life outside the relationship. No one advocates purposely withholding information to "seem cool".
However having a life of your own means that when you're with her you're actually doing something else as opposed to blowing up her phone to feed off attention even if you're not in the same room. And that good. You want that. She wants that.
And yes you should make her work. Because her earning the attention and affection of a man she can be proud of calling her own will make her infinitely more happy than being served on a silver platter.
Obviously though, first you need to become the type of man a woman would be proud dating.

3) Most guys can't even talk to a woman properly, let alone fuck her properly. Bad sex is common. Great sex, not so much. So yeah, turns out that if you're giving her better experiences than what she's used to she'll tend to stick around.


Manipulative and dishonest is becoming someone's friend, when in fact you secretly want to fuck them.
Constant self improvement, building your own happiness and choosing someone worthy of sharing it with is about as honest as it gets.

_________________
I know my place. It's me on top of the world.

My in depth texting & dating guide.
There's no such thing as shit-tests.
How to keep a girl.