Hey guys

I am new here and I need some advice.

I have an extremely feisty girl in my sites. Here's the back story:

The short version is: She said no (for 3 years), but suddenly said maybe, then no, then maybe, then definitely no - all within a week. Unfortunately I now how severe "mono-itis" and utterly "in love". I am now in my 50s and after all this time I honestly feel that she could be the love of my life.

Truly this is a nightmare.


Longer version of back story:

For the last 3 years, this fantastic, semi-hot (8+) girl has been giving me "Don't even think about about it" messages. We have a lot in common and she is exactly my type: Extremely kind, intelligent, sporty, has a superb figure and is a natural "giver" and has a strong moral compass. We have several friends in common and she has become a good friend. She's extremely teasable, good fun and we get on well - basically I just really like the woman.

For about 1.5 of those 3 years she went out with on the face of it an extremely unlikely boyfriend. This lady has a strong physical presence a bit of a tom-boy. Her boyfriend was a nice enough bloke but smallish, unassuming, uncharismatic, bookish, and in truth a bit of a dweeb. Apparently the previous 2 boyfriends where strong dominating alpha-male types and were both high-flying lawyers.

Although there has always been an undeniable sexual tension between us, she has never, ever let me flirt overtly. Not - at - all !! e.g. If I accidentally call her "babe" she goes "Don't Babe me!!" It's said with a smile but she absolutely means it let me tell you.

In short, I have always fancied her, but I had assumed that for whatever reason I just wasn't her type.

Then c. 1 month ago after a 3.5 hour car journey after a social w/e with mutual friends, she made it clear that she was potentially interested in me. This was a long story involving an almost totally silent hug goodbye that lasted bout 4 or 5 minutes LITERALLY, but which ended with her saying "Don't... do... anything!".

At the time her complaint was "Look, I just don't understand you... and it scares me". I should explain that I am not remotely scary I am more at the warm, sensitive, intellectual, Mr Nice Guy end of the spectrum. Given the extreme lack if IOIs I hadn't even been gaming her. But she then also accused me of being "a Lothario" - and that too is 95% untrue. A monk would be much closer to it! [deep sigh]

As you can imagine, having eventually become used to the idea that we would never be anything more than friends, given that I fancied her and liked her and admired her in many ways.... this news of her potential interest rocked my world. [Unfortunately for me].

So then, at my instigation I met her again a couple of days later and we met up briefly in a pub and she said "I'm sorry I made a terrible mistake". I said that was a shame not least because she was "very close to being my ideal woman" [what was I thinking?] [OK but in my defence I was totally smitten and just wanted to verbally externalise my feelings and fall on my sword albeit by in fact being utterly honest] and we did a quick post mortem of who had felt what when.

Then just as we left she said "you don't realise this but you are very convincing". I said "WTF does that mean?".

She had to go but we parted having agreed that she would have 2 days to decide if she was potentially interested. [Power all the wrong direction, I know, I know - NIGHTMARE - but when you are keen you do ALL the wrong things, what can I say?!]

Two days later we met up again. It was a summers evening and we had a nice time messing about in a canoe and eventually hit the pub where she told me that she had thought about it but that the answer was "definitely no" but that she wanted to go back to how things were before.

My hand was weak. There was nothing I could say or do. She was adamant.

Then a few days later I texted to say "OK, no problem. I'll swing you into some group activities..."

That was about 1 month ago. Since then we have met for a couple of games of tennis. She v friendly and was all smiles. I called her a could of weeks later for advice about something and she wanted to talk so we chatted for maybe 15 minutes despite me giving let's wrap this conversation up signs 2 or 3 times.

A few days later was last Sunday. It was a nice day, and I suggested a walk - something we used to do occasionally before hand - but she dragged her feet in replying and when I phoned to chase, she said that couldn't make it. She was friendly enough, but I'm pretty sure felt slightly chased/cornered.

And she is now dragging her feet an not replying to the occasional innocent-enough emails about random stuff and the message is clear - she is not interested and doesn't want to encourage me. I have to tell you she is very VERY feisty and tends to be competitive in conversation but luckily there definitely is at least a pause button for her 'feist'.

My problem is that I can't stop thinking about her.

What makes things even more tantalising is that I it's clear to me that she simply doesn't understand me. The reason for this is because historically we have had far too much banter and not enough genuine communication as a result. And I can't help but wonder if maybe she would be interested if only she did understand me.

For now I don't think I can contact her. She's said no and she means no. At least she thinks she does. I know our paths will cross eventually at a party in a few weeks time. And even then, I don't have any idea how to handle her:

- If I'm too keen, I'm a stalker
- If I flirt with other good looking women, I'm a "Lothario"
- If I flirt with very ugly women in front of her.... I am a loser.
- If I ignore her she will never get to know me and never build desire.

I feel in my bones the game is all but lost. But - and I know this sounds A) old-fashioned and B) pathetic - but I am utterly in love. It's an overwhelming feeling that I've not felt in decades. I don't really have any choice. I've tried going on other dates, but I can only think about the stupid women who has sucked me in and spat me out.... twice.

Nightmare.

What to do? Beyond taking away the pain by throwing myself off the nearest bridge... Any advice?

J

Delete all means of being able to contact her. You're too weak to make yourself attractive to her.

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Yes, either that or the bridge is sounding good...

Seriously?
Look, the only reason I became "weak" was because I accidentally fell for her. Up until that point, I hadn't made any effort to get her mainly because I couldn't be bothered to chase her as I had more attractive/more responsive fish to fry. And then yes, I concede that I played absolutely all the wrong cards.

I am serious. Delete all contact information. If you do that, you'll start becoming mentally strong because it does take some resolve to do that. If she doesn't contact you for some time, you won't be debating if you should contact her or not...you'll have no choices. It'll give you the chance to see that she's not perfect for you...any woman that is perfect for you will never make you jump through hoops to get her.

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No for three years and she's "in your sights"?

Sad.




The "love of your life" will, at some point in the past or now, get on her knees and blow you. That's how you know she likes you.

Until then, she's a friend and nothing more.

Game other women.





Terrible.

sounds like you got friendzoned, hard.


This makes you sound bitter and insecure, and I bet she notices it, too.
None of that matters. All you control is how you show up.


Then there's no sexual tension.




That doesn't sound very clear.

Translation: "I friendzoned you for being a nice guy ass kisser, so I don't want to fuck you."

Also ,the fact she complained tells me you tried to make a move, or have "a talk".


Wow. Just wow. Never tell that to a woman you've had no physical contact with.

Lol, women love ultimatums from men they have no physical connection with. I can dole out the occasional ultimatum to my gf of 9 months because I make her orgasm 8 times in 20 minutes, and I can handle her mentally, unlike the needy men that try and court her. I provide value. You have provided zero value to this woman, and so she could give a fuck if she walks away from you.

This woman was MEETING UP with you, and you threw out insecure ultimatum talks, and acted like you were in a 6-12 month relationship with her.

Whatever chance you had with her is over. It's time to game other women. If you had, at the very least kissed this woman, or had oral sex with her in the last three years, I would say you still had a shot to be the occasional fuck buddy. But this never happened. You are living in a fantasy land friend zone.

Cease all contact with this woman, and go out and bang 5's and 6's at bars. Then get better with women, and bang 7's. Then 8's. Invest your time i na woman who WANTS you. Be good to yourself. Treat yourself, respect yourself.

I say all this not to be mean, be to help. Best of luck.

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Why 5's? He'd go about a 5 the same way he'd go about an 8, the only difference is that the 5 MIGHT be more receptive as she'd probably receive less attention (even then if it's at the bar and you've had enough drinks, anything's attractive so we don't know for certain).

Come on guys - give us a break. I know it all looks bad, but I only crashed and burned because she got under my frickin skin. Gaming girls ain't so hard if quite frankly you don't give a damn.

F*CK! I just lost a long post.

OK I'll try again without the quotation tags.

Re Arch Stanton:

> > For about 1.5 of those 3 years she went out with on the face of it an extremely unlikely boyfriend
> This makes you sound bitter and insecure, and I bet she notices it, too.

No, I am only trying to give you the picture that every one of my friends who met him seems to be saying.


> > Although there has always been an undeniable sexual tension between us, she has never, ever let me flirt overtly.
> Then there's no sexual tension.

Right up until that hug I would have agreed with you. However during our post mortem she was emphatic that we "had alway flirted".


> > Then c. 1 month ago after a 3.5 hour car journey after a social w/e with mutual friends, she made it clear that she was potentially interested in me.
> That doesn't sound very clear.

It was a full 2 minute hug (count the seconds!) in total silence. Eventually she pulled away than then went back for a second two minute hug. If that's not a clear "I might be interested" sign then I don't know what.
I have never been in a situation anything like that in all my life. I had her happily in MY friend zone. She literally wasn't on my radar, beyond an "I'm not letting go first" just to see what happened for the purposes of general amusement.


Arch Stanton yes, I hear your advice and am ruminating on it.

> Cease all contact with this woman, and go out and bang 5's and 6's at bars.
No. If I were on a desert island for the rest of time stuffed with 5s and 6s I honestly dont think I would bother. I have too much self respect and well, I'm just not that desperate for actual sex.

Moroever another problem is that at the age of 48 I feel a bit old to be picking up scraggy women in bars.

But your general point is well made. I do need to get out and practise my game.

More later

J

Who gives a shit? She chooses (chose him) over you.

What does that tell you?


Women hug strangers.


Translation: "You're such a good friend, Ship."


And you did nothing, which makes you dickless in her eyes, justifying her three year friend zone of you.

Bullshit. You just said she might be the love of your life.


This sounds like ego protection.

She has YOU in her friendzone.

Go out, bang other women. Forget about this one.

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OP, don't be that guy that has to protect his ego while looking for help. It doesn't help you in any way at all.

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The only girls I game are the ones I give a damn about. Otherwise I don't bother.

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Lol. Bro, this will be the longest wait of your life if you still try to pursue this broad.

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pua-lounge/the-importance-patience-this ... his%20game

OP please listen to Jack and Arch.

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There are a lot of deeply misogynistic undertones here (crikey) but yes I do concede that you are all making broadly good points nonetheless. The game I played was catastrophic. And yes I guess it's game over.

That said, you are over-simplifying in places.
Nobody hugs a friend for 2 full minutes without saying anything. Not ever.
No, hugging it's not sexual. But it certainly can be romantic.
Either way she crossed the line and she knew it. The fact that she apologised 2 days later proves that in her mind she definitely had crossed the line.
She was confused. Deeply confused.

Look if you can't see she was confused then that too bad - I'm not going to debate this point - it's your problem not mine.

Now what was unfortunate was the because I had her firmly down as MY friend, not only had I NOT been gaming her, but in all honesty I totally didn't see her "I am potentially interested but confused" signal coming. I simply wasn't in that frame of mind - you don't just suddenly snog a friend! To get clear on my frame of mind, for the first of those 2 minutes I was worried that she, as my friend might be crying about something. Maybe something I had unwittingly said??

And for that reason I didn't snog her after the first 2 minutes.

Then she said "Don't kiss me!"
Up until that point kissing her hadn't been on my mind.

Now I was in a dilemma. Maybe I should kiss her after all. I fancied her so why not?
But anyhow aren't we all told that to french kiss is to lose?

And for that reason I didn't kiss her.

It was in the days that followed my feeling changed...

> > I have never been in a situation anything like that in all my life. I had her happily in MY friend zone.
> Bullshit. You just said she might be the love of your life.
My feelings changed.

Look, sometimes you realise that what you want isn't just some trophy bitch that you you have won in some battle mostly within yourself to acquire. Sometimes you realise that there is more to life that just fucking the best looking women your self-esteem and social skills and will let you have.

Sometimes you realise that when you want is someone you genuinely LIKE.

Sometimes, just occasionally, when you have built up a strong, genuine friendship with a woman, [or are you guys not capable of that?] that the 'friendship currency' that you have built up can cascade unexpectedly into powerful feelings of romance.


Yes it is humiliating. Yes, in hindsight, it makes all your previous footsteps look like those of an utterly "weak", pathetic muppet / "AFC". Any yes the situation may well be irrecoverable. I know I should forget her for several months at least.

I have a lot to learn from this bruising encounter. I should have decided whether I was or was not sexually/romantically interested in her and stuck to that.

So, wise guys, I have 3 questions for you:
1. Technically what SHOULD I originally have done after that 2 minute/4 minute hug?

2. I live in a small city. I am guaranteed to see her again socially. How should treat her now?
Blank her, ignore her, be polite but cold, be light and insignificant... What?

3. And what should I say or do in the unlikely event that she suddenly hits on me?

4. General question:
If you are single and you both like and fancy someone, what happens if they make it 100% clear that they definitely do NOT fancy you? Because you are physically attracted to them, does you can't be friends?

5. In fact are you guys saying that genuine friendship between males and females is impossible?

Declare your colours!

J

OP...you're full of justifications for your actions. I don't care how old you are but you should be smart enough to realize that, as a man, when you see a woman that you are sexually attracted to and mentally attracted to that you don't all of a sudden figure out that this woman is the love of your life because of one special moment. This is irrelevant. In the movies this "special moment" that changes everything happens.Treat her like you've always treated her...as a friend.You do what's best for you and a friendship isn't that. Guys that keep women as friends are secretly hoping that the woman will change her mind. If you must keep her around, expect her to never have the same feelings for you and date other women unapologetically. It's not impossible, but it is highly unlikely that one of those people doesn't have some emotions in it.

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