You don't need to take things to extremes, just because we all realise that social anxiety is something you can overcome and that if you decide you have a dissorder forcing you to not be able to overcome it, then you won't. THIS instance is merely something that some people who have decided they don't have it in them to change came up with.

There are verified dissorders and this one is simply an excuse. People can have depression and other illnesses that are chemical unbalances in the brain, but until I get at least 3 different doctors, preferably from different fields, all telling me that this is an actual dissorder, just like you are able to get when dealing with depression, then I'm gonna continue to say that it is merely an excuse. Don't get pissed off because people blow your excuses away, be glad that you can overcome them. This is not depression, this is bullshit.

_________________
"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

Perhaps you should inform the American Psychiatric Association of this startling new discovery.

http://anxiety.psy.ohio-state.edu/spdsm-iv.htm
Well, there are 39,000 practicing psychiatrists in the USA, and most of them belong to the APA which publishes the DSM-IV, which recognizes Social Anxiety as a legitimate mental illness.

I'm not sure why you want different fields. I would think that you would need an opinion from the relevant field, and being that mental illness is the purview of psychiatry, I would think that their opinion is what matters most.
What I'm pissed at is the fact that a large segment of the uninformed population seems to think that mental disease is something that you can just tough out, and that those who can't just lack sufficient willpower. People like that are undermining the development of the field and creating a culture where wherein it is getting difficult for people with genuine problems to receive professional help.

And what makes you think that disorders cannot be overcome? Have you ever heard of therapy/medication?

_________________
Lo' there do I see My Father.
Lo' there do I see the line of My People, back to the beginning.
Lo' they do call to me, they bid me take my place among them.
in the Halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live forever.

Sorry Fiction, but he isn't claing social anxiety, he is claiming that he's "love shy". That's just not an acknowledged dissorder. Social anxiety is, fine, but that doesn't mean that those people can't talk to other people, I know, cause I've dealt with people with social anxiety and I've seen them talking to people with some effort and the right medication. He's claiming that this is something that he can't get over, he has no way of fixing it, which is ridiculous.

Believe it or not, but I bet a large portion of the people on here have various dissorders, I know some of them have mentioned before that they have been diagnosed with this and that and with a bit of medication they are just find and go out and sarge without issue.

My family has issues with depression that I've inherited, but the only medication I ever tried made me go crazy, so I just decided to instead learn to control my emotions and when I am having too much trouble, I smoke a bit of herb. Yeah, I have chosen the "tough it out" method, but when I find that it's just too much to control myself, then I turn to the medication that I've found works for me.

Anyone that thinks that a dissorder is going to make learning this stuff and attracting women impossible, is just finding excuses to not have to find a way to succeed, because there's always a way to succeed if you want to. It may not be easy, it may be down right hard as hell and unpleasant, but if you work at it, you WILL succeed.

If you want to dissagree with me and say that a dissorder is going to get in the way, or that AA is a dissorder, or fear of success is a dissorder, then you're just looking for excuses. If you've got a diagnosable dissorder, don't look it up on the internet and decide that's what's holding you back and you're screwed for life, go to the doctor and get it fixed, or figure out a way to cope, otherwise, all it is is an excuse.

_________________
"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

I wasn't claiming it was either. In fact, I expressed my skepticism in my preceding posts. I took your various statements to be referring to social anxiety as a whole. Sorry if there was a misunderstanding.
I don't recall him claiming that, and I certainly wasn't claiming that.


Were you taking the medication under the supervision of a licensed mental health professional? They are supposed to evaluate your response to various drugs and try alternatives if there is a negative reaction.

And self-medication is a very dangerous business. That is what doctors are for.
Again, I don't think anyone has been saying that it is impossible to handle any sort of disorder, but the presumption here is that somehow something being a disorder makes it an excuse. I think there is something to be said for recognizing your weaknesses to try an compensate for them.

Anyway, I think it is possible that we were talking past one another.

_________________
Lo' there do I see My Father.
Lo' there do I see the line of My People, back to the beginning.
Lo' they do call to me, they bid me take my place among them.
in the Halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live forever.

Ok, no offense, but to all you out there that buy into this extreme social shyness dissorder stuff, you are wrong. This falls into a simple lack of frame. I don't care how socially incapable you are or think you are. A dissorder can't be totally fixed through self-improvement. Social Shyness to any degree can. Its all desire. We humans can do anything we set our minds to. The concepts of doctors just labeling dissorders can also be applied to the idea of ADD/ADHD. There are many people including doctors who don't believe in the idea of ADD/ADHD and that it can be taken care of without medication. Years before we had all the advancements in medicine, people managed. The same applies to AA, if you want to get over it, your can.

Thus the only benefit this book is for is, making people think they are worse off and need help. These kinds of extreme cases are where NLP comes great in handy. Have you watched any of Hypnotica's seminars? The dude seriously rids guys of AA and Socia Shyness. Some of the guys he's done it to could fall into this dissorder if it really was a dissorder. But they were able to overcome it. However, if someone believes this, all they are doing is downtrodding themselves. Making their own situations worse than before by believing this.

Lee I give you props man for your firm stance in this. I'm glad to see someone else see through this bunk for what it is.

Wow Fiction why are you arguing so much? Everyone knows depression is real, but by god we also know most people who claim to have that sort of stuff and take pills for it don't need them. I know first hand my mom was a fucked up person for all of my childhood for being on stupid ass prescribed pills. Again to clarify I know some people really do have a depressive disorder, just saying most people don't....and def. not people who think they have 'love shy'. Haha,

For starters, I think it would be helpful for people thinking that I give any credence to "love shyness" being a legitimate disorder to read my first post in this thread.
I would think that the sheer fact that we have a disagreement is enough to warrant the argument. However, the reason I am arguing so strongly is because it is saddening and frustrating to see so many people who are ignorant to what it means to have a mental disease. My ex-girlfriend has bipolar, and the same stance was held by my ex-girlfriend's parents and it nearly killed her.
Maybe we should leave that question up to a certified mental health professional.

Look, if you know that depression requires pills because it is a legit mental illness, what makes you the authority on what can and can't be one and who should and shouln't be medicated.

_________________
Lo' there do I see My Father.
Lo' there do I see the line of My People, back to the beginning.
Lo' they do call to me, they bid me take my place among them.
in the Halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live forever.

Hahaha...thanks for informing me. I will now go to you whenever I need an opinion on mental health, fuck the APA.


There are also people, including doctors, who still think homosexuality is a disease. There are people, including Ph.Ds in biochemistry, who do not believe that evolution is a legitimate scientific theory. There are people on the fringes of every field. Don't you think it is a easier to believe that in a group of people who have 10+ years of schooling and hands on experience, they are going to--on average--be more likely to be correct and that the minority is probably mistaken?
Are you sure about that? My guess is that you aren't too familiar with the history of psychological medicine, so I think this is probably not a line of argument you will want to take.


I suppose this applies to alcoholics as well? If you just deny that you have a problem, you will be better off in the long run.


What what I know about NLP, it at least styles itself as a therapeutic device. If you are saying that people that have mental disorders need therapy, them I don't see that we are in disagreement. I would prefer to stick with SPAM that have some data to support them, but we are still essentially agreeing. I'm still not sure how someone would seek out therapy though, if they did not believe they had a problem.
As I took it, Lee is largely in agreement with me.

_________________
Lo' there do I see My Father.
Lo' there do I see the line of My People, back to the beginning.
Lo' they do call to me, they bid me take my place among them.
in the Halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live forever.

Sorry Fiction, I do sympathize with your ex's situation. I don't mean to look down on anyone who does have a hard time with a problem.

But concerning the depression and pills, I referenced to my mom who while taking the pills was really messed up. Last year right before I left home, she got off them and only since then has she been anywhere near better. So those certified mental health professional who medicated her....well I don't know if I should trust them so blindly again :/

So I guess what I'm asking is, although depression is a serious problem and some people really do have depressive problems and need medical help, you don't think that EVERY person who thinks they have 'love shy' or depression really has it do you?

Hm, maybe we are in agreement and just worded our posts differently

I still think this love shyness really may be something. Maybe it isn't a true disorder but, like I said before, it's a very rare problem(to the extreme that it's discussed in the book, anyway). A love shy guy would rather be shot than go and approach a woman.

I don't think the book is trying to give guys an excuse. The book isn't saying that these guys can't be helped, it's just much more difficult and complicated. Also, these so called love shy guys are typically not attractive(not surprising) at all.

The parts of the book that get kind of weird to me are some of the possible solutions. The author actually talks about cloning to basically make everyone beautiful. I do see his point, however. And cloned people wouldn't generally look the same either - there would still be so many combinations of physically attractive appearances. There's more to it than that, but that's just the general idea I got from it.

Here's the official Love shy website in case you guys want to check more of this out:

http://www.love-shy.com/ You can also find the whole book there in pdf format.

Well I'm glad that he didn't suggest anything extreme.

_________________
"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

I would just like to ditto skinny and say I have seen those very same mental health professionals work "wonders" on my mother. They aren't gods paticularly in this field they get it wrong ALOT, lets just say over the years i've found I wouldn't be so willing to trust the mental health profession on these matters and believe me I KNOW alot of people who in one way another have dealt with the system. My mum depression, possible bipolar (yeah thats right possible they dont have a clue either way and said that *sigh*) + many many of her other friends (self-harm, eating disorders and all sorts). I'm not saying they don't do good and valuable work but you hear alot of bad stories from people directly involved such as mis-diagnosis, wrong pills prescribed, they chage their minds every other year, some are arrogant to an extreame, forget to treat the patient as a person, section people on whims, problems with prescriptions, nasty side-effect, etc. etc. not to mention the amount of succes stories of people who have decided of their own accord to throw the pills away and its work wonders. Now there are certain conditions out there where this would be highly un-advisable but you get my gist

It is also widely recognised that Anti-depressants are WAY over pre-scribed I mean WAY over pre-scribed. Anyone who feels even a little down can end up on them if they approach their doctor in the right way What happens when something becomes main stream and doctors with specific expertise in the field start pre-scribing.

Still I agree people shouldn't be ignorant of mental science as it needs to be explored but its not a field in which you can argue so matter of fact over because as mentioned it is a VERY in-exact science and is by no means that advanced compared to other medical sciences. We don't know THAT much about the brain even if we are beginning to understand it BETTER and to claim black/white on an issue which is very much theory based anyway is stupid regardless of which angle your coming from Damn this is turning out as bad as a discussion on whether or not god exists

Just remember he who thinks he knows it all has much learn no one in any field is CLOSE to knowing it all thats a universal fact, you'll be amazed by the changes and new discoveries that will happen over the next 50 years in the same way human knowledge has changed drasticly throughout our time on this planet.

Oh yea and before I forget this love shyness probably could be a disorder not sure if it is actually recognised as such yet but you would be talking about an extreme minority not an AFC who lacks confindence which is where alot of you I think are getting hung up. If it were a condition it would be an extreame like people who are too afraid too leave their houses not the guy who feels a little nervous in public settings

Who is saying you should trust anyone blindly? You ought to look at the person's track record, consider his/her recommendations, consider the credentials, consider the interest the person is taking in you, etc.

You should also educate yourself on the matter and not be afraid to challenge the professional or ask why they are or aren't doing something. This is something you should do with any "expert".

I am probably one of the biggest skeptics you will ever meet...of anything. However, this doesn't change the fact that these are people with far more schooling and practical experience in the matter. When it is a question of simple judgment, you should defer to the person with the background and experience. Presumably you don't want to go to school for eight years, so that is why you pay them.
No, I don't think that self-diagnosis is a very good practice in general. Again, that is why we have things like mental health professionals and diagnostic manuals and a rich and developing field of psychological research on these matters.
Could be. In any case, I enjoyed the exchange. If nothing else we articulated and therefore clarified (to ourselves if no one else) our position on the matter.

_________________
Lo' there do I see My Father.
Lo' there do I see the line of My People, back to the beginning.
Lo' they do call to me, they bid me take my place among them.
in the Halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live forever.

I wasn't talking about self-diagnosis. From seeing a few online discussions and a few people in real life. It seems like medical professionals easily give out pills when it comes to depression. Sure you can try to look after every single persons record, but most people don't know this and trust their doctor or are very poor and have no time for anything like this and just go with the doctor's prognosis.

So what I'm saying again is the overall medical community in the US superficially is way too lenient on giving out pills and such. So I'd say for the majority of people with depression, they get a bad diagnosis.
As have I

Thought I'd start with this, as it sort of lays the foundation.

Yes, psychology is, as they say, a "softer" science. As a social science it is required to rely heavily on statistical factors. In any particular psych study, you will see language like statistically significant. For example, if you wanted to test perceived attractiveness as it related to serum testosterone levels (this was an actually study conducted), you would test with a control group who had average levels throughout the general population, and then you would test some with elevated levels. If those with elevated levels came out as being perceived significantly more attractive (using a statistical method), then it would mean that there was some mechanism in the study that caused higher T men to be percieved as more attractive. Note this does not mean that EVERYONE viewed them as more attractive, or that some people did not find lower T men as more attractive. All it states is that in a random sampling of people, people tended to prefer high T to low T.

This is the nature of social science--some degree of reliance on statistical tools. However, this does not change the fact that we should rely on them. If you had a choice between a 20% and 25% chance to live, which would you take? It seems obvious, but now change that to a real case, in which Psychological Method A has a 20% chance of fixing the problem and Psychological Method B has a 25% chance. However, you talk to Jane, who is the friend of your sister, and she tried Method A and found it to be wildly successful, and you know that Jeff down the street has taken Method B and is bat-shit crazy. Suddenly, due to anecdotal evidence, your faith in Method A goes up dramatically. This is simply a cognitive bias, and the reason why there is a lot of trouble in science in general, and social science in particular.
I'm not sure what you mean by theory-based. If you are suggesting that psychopharmacological solutions do not have empirical research behind them, you are simply mistaken. There have been a number of massive reviews on this issue, particularly on SSRIs.
No disagreement here. But until then, wouldn't it be prudent to do the best we can with the tools and knowledge we have right now, rather than wait it out and stand on ignorance?


So your alternative is...what? Relying on your own judgment and extensive schooling in this matter?
Sorry about your mum...but it sounds to me like you didn't take the time to do the sort of thing I mentioned to skinny that you should do with any professional. Believe it or not there are bad allergists, bad gynecologists, bad exercise physiologists, and bad computer technicians. You should always review the person you are getting your work done. I've always found it amazing that people tend to do intense research to find a trusted and skilled auto-mechanic, but never bother with it with things like doctors.
Widely recognized by whom? I'm not exactly sure where you are getting your data. However, the problem with antidepressants is not that they are being prescribed, but that they are being prescribed by people that are typically unqualified--GPs and gynecologists--and that they are not being prescribed in conjunction with some form of therapy. In our "quick-fix" society, doctors prescribe pills because it's simpler, and patients take pills because it's easier. No one wants to actually spend hours with someone talking about your problems and trying to fix them when a pill can do it all for you.

It isn't anti-depressants that are the problem, it is the fact that that is all that is used.
I've never quite understood why people are so averse to argument these days. People ought to be more willing to put their ideas to the test more often.

_________________
Lo' there do I see My Father.
Lo' there do I see the line of My People, back to the beginning.
Lo' they do call to me, they bid me take my place among them.
in the Halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live forever.