Oh the irony.

What is it with guys that always ended up falling in love with the girls that just don't want relationships? OP, thousands of guys have came to this forum writing you exact same story. " I used to date other girls that wanted a relationship with me, but then I met this one girl that doesn't want a relationship with me, but I want one with her". Do you see the pattern there?

Your story is one of hundreds of thousands if not millions that all go the same way. Do you really like her as much as you claim to or is she just giving you the most "challenge" which is creating an obstacle to conquer in your life? Its not the girl man, its the challenge. Had she started begging you to be in a relationship with her from the very beginning you would not see her the way that you do. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder bro; and a pimple turns to a dimple when you're in love. Feelings alter perception. And a challenge alters the way we would normally perceive a situation.

Your solution is simple: her door currently says "pull" in the particular area that you are pursuing her. But you continue to push on it. How many times do you have to push a door that says pull before it opens? It never will. Until you pull on the door you stand no chance in getting it to open. When you stop wanting a relationship with her (if you can even manage this level of emotional control before she leaves you) she will start wanting a relationship with you.

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That definitely is true and definitely the challenge is partial reason for my attraction but it is not the only reason. Typically I have been dating woman that were either outmatched by me in intelligence and even if not and they were smarter than me then they were not blunt or honest enough, or they were scared to state their point of view.

Here is why I know the challenge is not only reason - a while ago, after another set of girls that I got bored with quite quickly I was wondering what would have the girl to offer for me to stay around longer. And I outlined couple things that I was sure would keep me interested:
- smart, intelligent and outspoken - one that would challenge me intellectually and one I could learn smth from
- blunt and brutally honest
- doing crossfit (it's just too important part of my life for me to be with someone not sharing this passion)
- being competitive with me on various fields (career, sport/crosssfit, even sex)
- sharing at least couple other of my other passions

+ of course standard necessities like beast in bed, hot, clean, etc...

She literally meets all of the above conditions and I have never dated girl that would meet more than 3 out of 5 above. So I was immediately attracted to her much more than to others - even before I learned that she doesn't want relationship (and of course as you would expect - then my desire to be with her just exploded)

Also - she is a good looking girl but definitely outside of top quartile of how hot girls I date typically are - probably somewhere in the middle of the crowd. So it's not like I am typically dating 7s and now I got a chance to date a 9 and I am trying to hold to it desperately. (at least in terms of the looks she is not above others bc as entire person she definitely is at least 9 for me).

Do you mean make her feel like I don't want relationship (which I think I am slowly starting to do since I got some advice here and I stopped pushing on the door as yo phrased it) or do you mean actually stop wanting a relationship with her - and if so - then how do I do that?

10's and 9's almost never possess all of those qualities you stated simply because this is reality and there are personal qualities 9's don't have to develop because they don't need to. They can often get by with their looks alone. A hot woman doesn't need connections and great social skills to get into the top clubs, she gets in because she's hot, so whats her motivation to develop those skills? We develop what we need to survive. A solid overall girlfriend is usually going to be around a 7 or 8. 9's and 10's are bangable, but rarely do you find one actually worth taking serious. When you're younger you will, as you age you find them less appealing longterm. The ones that possess those qualities often have had tragic things happen to them at early ages. And that comes with its own problems.


Now to your point, I do believe the "challenge" and the altering of perception can cause us to over qualify someone else. You see what you want to see. I can choose to see best or the worst in someone. I can choose to see no good qualities or I can see only good qualities while ignoring all their flaws. Both are mistakes. If you take a girl you were in love with in the past you probably had this "perfect" image of the after the break up, if they left you. Only to be hit with how flawed they truly were after reflecting once they emotions have subsided. So because of your oneitis, I can not take your summary of this girls attributes serious. We'll see what we choose to. And will often make things up as well to fit our agenda.

I don't think its a coincidence that the one decent girl that doesn't want a relationship with you is the one you want a relationship with. Not just because of this particular coincidence, but because of the thousands of guys who have all come onto this forum with your exact same story. Nothing special about this one.

To your last question. Just pull man. Accept it for what it is. Stop doing relationship like shit, stop over texting, over initiating contact. She wants to be a fuck buddy, treat her like one. All the nice guy shit will keep you in the box you're trying to get out of. After sex, tell her you have to get some work so, so she can leave. Treat her just like you would treat a normal fuck buddy. Its not like thats not what she's asking for anyway. Keep treating her like a girlfriend and she'll keep treating you like a guy she doesn't want to be with.

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Have similar experience - got in some 9s and 10s over last two years but those in fact were girls I got most quickly bored of and ironically none of this kind of girls dumped me - it was always me dumping them (where as with 7-8 range for me I would say it's 50/50 who dumps who - sometimes they get too pissed with my lack of attention and contact that they dump me first before I get to do that). And I also got to age (30) where I am willing to sacrifice a point or two in looks just for dating much more interesting person. So this girl is probably somewhere between 7 and 8 according to my standards of beauty/sexiness.

Sure - I understand why you think so and that now my assessment of her is worth shit because I want her so badly that I just completely idealize her (though I try to make myself notice her flaws - one of which is that she has super short temper and can completely snap in one sec. Much quicker than me (which I am very short tempered person anyway - and now I have to control myself twice when around her). But I also think she has to be much better than others I dated bc like I said - I liked her way much more than others already before I learned that she does not want to commit (when my assessment was not clouded. In fact until she came up with all this "I don't want exclusivity" talk I was sure that she will be first to ask about gf/bf thing in couple dates and was quite happy that it is going this direction - completely hasn't seen that one coming)
That actually is another good tip how to weaken her position in this relationship and strengthen mine, regain dominance. So like I said - after dates we always go to my place (it's a default - I don't even ask her to come and she doesn't ask if she can stay - we just go), we have sex and she stays over night, we cuddle, etc. - in morning we bang again, talk for like 30 minutes (on weekdays) or she sleeps and then we talk for hours (on weekends) while still cuddling, ordering bfest from Seamless and all other shit like that - basically we hang out like a couple would.

I am thinking now that good way to go would be to minimize outside of sex intimacy - so like no cuddling, no post sex talking (unless we are talking about some sex-related stuff), and basically as you said - telling her I have shit to do - almost right after sex (like maybe taking shower alone right after sex and then starting working on something right away and telling her that she can hang out, sleep (she sleeps like 8 hrs minimum where I sleep 6 at max so she typically goes back to sleep after I wake her up for morning sex if she has nothing to do until later morning) or whatever she wants around my place, but I have stuff to do and can't give her any more of my time at the moment and won't give her my attention.

Actually now as I think probably ideal would be to have even one or two nights where I would ask her to leave after sex in middle of the night (of course would drive her to her place, ordered a cab or smth) but don't know how to pull this off to not get her too much pissed and offended by this. This might be little aggressive. (would have to have good explanation for that but can't think of one at the moment).

But anyways - this actually gave me an idea how to further decrease my projected neediness - tip with telling her that I have shit to do and suggesting her to leave is awesome and definitely super applicable to my situation. No way she will not notice this shift in my behavior and won't feel threatened by it.

With wonder.

Wondering where you are.

Wondering if your talking to other girls.

Wondering what your up to.

Wondering if she'll lose you.

Wondering when she'll see you again.

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Are you really gonna change yourself for this girl? I mean you're going to stop doing things you want to do such as cuddling and talking to her to manipulate her into tying you down. Then what? You'll be in a relationship where you can't do the things you want to because itll make her not want exclusivity anymore?

Your projected neediness is gonna decrease but your inner neediness is way too high. She's rare for you.. But you're not rare enough for her to want exclusivity. If getting this particular girl is the prize ok... But then what? You're gonna continue to game her to make it work?

P.S. I didn't read the whole thread, to many words and junk.

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They call me the cat whisperer, cause I know exactly what the pussy needs.

Yeah been here. Withdraw the cuddling/chatting bed sessions temporarily.

Ask her to head out after sex nicely. If she asks why, tell her that you and her are behaving like an exclusive couple , not the FWB you are, and you don't want to complicate things.

Edit: These are details you left out that are quite important, and I think this issue may need to be handled more swiftly and with less mercy.

Think about this: Your girl wants to have all the benefits (intimacy, snuggling, eating meals, talking in bed, etc) of an exclusive relationship while still having the option to suck another guy's dick (or to find someone better).

You're being disrespected. Make yourself scarce, pull back. If she asks why, tell her why. If she has a problem with it, walk. But do it in a non-angry, non-emotional way. Cool as a cat.

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Yep. Women hate this shit, even if they aren't aware of why.

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Following that logic if I approach a girl on a street which I wouldn't normally approach because of AA, then I also changed myself for a girl, didn't I? Doesn't mean I would stop doing it for always. I would just stop it for some time until she gets more invested.

In the night after sex or in the morning? Also unsure what is polite way to ask her that. "Can I call you a cab if that is ok?" - especially in the middle of the night nothing sounds too nice.


Didn't realized those were important details. And I see your point.

So situation got complicated and I think it might be over. Last night I went over to her place, she made food, we fucked, we talked. And she goes : "Do you think we should stop seeing each other after graduation?". I said "Why would we? I think we should just see where it goes?". And she goes "It has to end eventually, I don't want to get attached to you - and it will be easier for both of us after long period of not seeing each other" (we are both graduating in 2 weeks - me from MBA, she from college - and I will stay in New York before starting to work end of June while she goes back to Massachusetts for 2 months before starting work in NYC in mid July - which of course is not far so easily we could see each other over this period at least 2-3 times).

Second thing I learned yesterday is that another reason why she doesn't want to be in relationship is that she doesn't trust men. And when I asked if someone cheated on her she goes "No. Nobody did. But I don't want to talk about it". And she goes - "I just want something easy".

So my take-aways are as following:
- she did get hurt by someone and now really doesn't want to be in relationship even if she is invested in someone
- she obviously already got attached to me and invested in this thing
- And because of that I believe now that she will drop me when we graduate
- I think this is generally her tactics now - start dating someone on casual basis, when you get invested drop him and find another one.



So I am thinking about one of the following ways to act:

A. Drop her first and forget - will definitely make me feel better than if I get dropped

B. Drop her in a more nice way. Sort of "Listen. I thought about stuff you told me last night and I think you are right - we should stop seeing each other in this way, it's too much drama. But I want to continue the contact, I think you're cool" - just to leave her in the orbit and maybe re-approach when she gets over her shit, if I am still interested (also would give me time to evaluate if she really was that awesome of a person to Eddie's point)

C. Since now I know she is invested but it started being a problem to her that she is - do exactly what Arch said - in a merciless way: "Make yourself scarce, pull back. If she asks why, tell her why. If she has a problem with it, walk. But do it in a non-angry, non-emotional way" and look at how she reacts and how she makes a choice - either she follows her discipline and walks because she is invested in it or she decides to give up her discipline and reevaluates what she wants at the moment. If she drops me then she drops me if not then not.




Anyway - we have probably 2 dates left before graduation - one on this Saturday and one after I am back from my graduation trip - probably Saturday week later or even after that. I am definitely not texting her at all until Saturday (when I will text her place and hour) unless she asks something more important than "How are you doing?" that I will feel I have to answer. I am also thinking about cutting contact at all over my graduation trip (which lasts 5 days).

I completely haven't seen this conversation yesterday coming - and it acted as a bucket of cold water straight in my face. I finally got my balls back and think I will go back to my old lifestyle (in fact I already set up a date with other girl for tonight). Just really unsure what is the best way to proceed in this situation with this girl (I still like her and ideally would either keep dating her casually or at least kept her around)

You were given great, perfectly timed advice here, but did not apply it last night. Your response was needy and clingy to a woman who is disrespecting you.

And now she squeezed the last tiny drops of whatever power you had and licked it off the floor with a greedy tongue.

Why did you not kick her out after sex as advised? Instead you had another emotional moment and she ate you alive.

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Hmm it was her place not mine so couldn't throw her out. I guess I should have just left after sex. That's my mistake.

She brought emotional moment and this talk up, not me.

What should be my response then in this situation if she asked me this question?

That's a big jump from beating approach anxiety in a few seconds to changing a dynamic of a relationship you were happy with to make it something that pleases her more than you.

Also you didn't grab your balls back.. Grabbing your balls back would have been pursuing a new girl that was ready for the type of relationship you want instead of spending time working on a chick who isnt.

Your added events are exactly why I told you to find someone else. You couldn't have turned a chick who wasn't looking for exclusivity into a gf within 2 weeks with 2 months of distance between. You would've frozen her out for her to go back to studying and planning to leave. Even if by some miracle she had tied you down, the trust and connection isn't there for long distance.

If a chick doesn't want a relationship with you, move on and find one who does. If you start off prizing her to try to make it work, not only would you be sacrificing what you want your scarcity would have seeped into the relationship anyway. If you're not meeting women who have the qualities you're looking for, that just means you're dating in efficiently and should be going to places where the women you want frequent.

+1

I'm going to give you the simple way to go about getting a girl to want exclusivity with you. YOU DON"T BRING IT UP!!! If she likes you, she will eventually want it.

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It's not that she doesn't want a serious relationship.

She doesn't want a serious relationship with YOU.

Doubt there's much you can do about it at this point. Her mind has already been made up - you're a decent guy, good enough to fuck, but she's obviously just waiting for something better.