No he's not because such change doesn't happen overnight, it is however getting his foot in the door with attractive women. To repeat: It's information for noobs on what to expect and why it happens. As the noob gains confidence with attractive women the change accelerates the development of his inner game and boundary function.

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A shit test is a boundary test. If she triggers an emotional response in you either passive (needy) or aggressive (reactionary) then she's gotten inside your boundary.

That's about the gist of it, if he came from a place of abundance he wouldn't. If he kicks off and gets all upset or possessive he's demonstrating that he considers her higher value than him as he's afraid to lose her.

She gets the ego boost dopamine rush but the attraction goes. Even if the flirting is for own validation it shows a lack of respect for her partner which indicates the attraction has gone anyway.

I'm more confused by the above, and I think Jack can better break down why its confusing.

But again, EXAMPLES. Its like you're purposefully not providing examples. Not definitions. Examples.

It shouldnt be difficult. If someone posts on negs, they can provide numerous examples of negs. If someone posts on openers, they can provide numerous examples of openers. Thats like me writing a post on NEGS....Negs are negative compliments blah blah blah. Someone asks me for an example. I respond with a neg is a negative compliment. I'd be setting up noobs to neg incorrectly and not understand the topic at all.

Please..please...please.... post some examples. A boundary that is crossed that meets the defintion of shit test, and the correct response. I have no idea what would fit this criteria as I suspect noobs wont know too from what was written. You're actively dancing around giving an example of what you're talking about hacking.

I hate when words like "hack" are used. They somehow make it to the surface level along with bad negs, giving feminists more and more reason to hate us, lol.

Didn't provide any valuable information here, just wanted to get it off my chest.

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I grew out of the dumb shit I used to say on here. Most of my posts don't represent who I am today at all.

This is completely off. I'm directly telling you that a new guy that does not misrepresent himself will not go through this issue. You're saying that new guys will go through this. In essence you are saying that "while you are new, pretend that you are something that you are not. You'll get tested for it, but here's how you can work your way around it. Later you won't have to pretend anymore because you'll have a different mentality." Why not just start in the right place to gain confidence in who you are by representing yourself and not pretending? Then you will not be shit tested and you will not be hacking shit tests.

The new guy excuse is lazy coaching. Build on a solid foundation and none of this will be a problem for a new guy.

I find it odd that you absolutely refuse to give an example of one shit test. Surely if you can author a thread on it, you've been through at least one that you can give an example.

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To clarify
A shit test is a boundary test. It's a test of the integrity of your boundary function to elicit its strength. In other words: It tests your "mettle" as a man.

Someone with poor boundarys would let a girl's tests under his skin and give an emotional reaction to them, become upset and defend themselves.

Someone with a strong boundary would be unreactive to them as he knows he can get another girl if need be. He's exhibiting high value behaviour. If she does cross a boundary by doing something totally unacceptable then the girl is dumped.
I see exactly where you're coming from with this and in an ideal world this would be a perfect truism to PUA and in effect it's where you want to be but you have to walk before you can run.

Picture this situation Jack: You're in a bar with a noob, he's just got his game together enough to overcome AA and he plans on approching a 9 or 10. Good for him. But you know he's going to get tested to fuck by a barrage of shit tests which will knock his confidence for six and have his new found confidence pulled from under him.

What to do? Why not explain about that he's going to be tested, this is why they do it, and it's nothing personal; don't take it to heart just shrug them off and game on.

It's going to give him valuable experience in a league he doesn't normally bat in and boost his confidence, hell the girl might even like him anyway.

Or you could take him aside and say which is good advice but what if he's unconfident?, needy? lacks social skills?

Sure he needs to address those problems but they take time and they take momentum and success to drive that sort of change. By giving him valuable information about the testing process he's going to reach that level faster instead of falling at the first hurdle.

By popular demand shit test examples.

There are 4 types of shit tests [back in the "seduction_alt" days this argument went on for nearly a year] but it was eventually set at 4.

1: Dominance. A dominance shit test determines how mentally tough you are.

Example "I have a boyfriend" - Reply "cool. blah blah blah...." Outcome independent.


2: Compliance. A compliance shit test determines how much influence a girl has over you due to her pussy pass.

Example: "Buy me a drink" - Reply "Are you unemployed?" Switches the frame so she is justifying herself.


3: Fitness. A fitness shit test determines your level of social skills or sense of humour.

Example: "That shirt looks gay" - Reply "Glad you like it" Reframes the statement as a compliment.


4: Nuclear. You don't often get these but they are common among bi polar girls or ones with attachment issues. The difference with this type of test is they're usually non verbal and action orientated and always cross a proscribed social norm. The modus of them is to cause the man to invest heavily in the girl by giving a huge emotional response and validating her to herself.

Example: A girl grinding against another guy on the dancefloor when she's supposed to be with you.

Reply (if she's your girlfriend) "It's not going to work: you're dumped" Seriously this saves you a lot of future angst.

Reply (girl you've just met and and kiss closed) Go talk to other girls and act as if you didn't give a shit.

Not all emotional reactions to a girl's actions are shit tests for the simple fact that a noob may interpret something the wrong way due to his own lack of inner game, whilst an experienced PUA would "see the matrix" so to speak.

For example: She may actually have a boyfriend, your shirt might actually look gay as fuck, she may want you to hold her handbag when she goes to the ladies because she trusts you and you've isolated her from her friends.

Nuclear shit testing is different as that's always a shit test unless she's seen someone she really, really likes and wants rid of you. Example Brad Pitt has come in and is giving her the eye from the dancefloor.

It all comes from experience.

Finally, examples.

1. "I have a boyfriend". It's not really a shit test. If it's a girl that would cheat on her boyfriend, it's simply her passing the responsibility for cheating to you. It can also be disinterest without her saying, "I don't like you". Or it could be she really has a boyfriend and wants you to go away. If it's a test, you should walk away because if she is interested she is playing games.

2. "Buy me a drink". This doesn't meet your definition of a shit test. What guy gets upset and defends himself if a girl says this?

3. "That shirt looks gay". Again, not a shit test because your frame isn't being tested. If you have some reason to think it's being tested you are way too sensitive to be approaching women.

4. This one is outright disrespectful and not a test at all.

This goes back to my original statement that most guys don't know what a shit test is. A shit test is a test of the frame that you've presented to a woman. None of your examples fit that criteria. You may say some other site had an argument over that for nearly a year, but they got it wrong.

Every time for your statement to stand you seem to need to narrow down the field to who will be using this advice. First it's for the new guys. Now it's for the new guys that are not confident, needy, or lack social skills. If you are any of those new things, you will not pass any shit test no matter if you give them the correct response or not. Your behavior will not be congruent to your words.

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You spoke heavily on boundaries, but how are any of those examples, except 4, which you even said you dont get often..have anything to do with boundaries?

Also, its funny how in threads mentioning "abundance," that no one really understands what abundance is. Its like abundance means you're not bothered. If you had options, you wouldnt hear a chick has a bf and care to fuck someone fucking another dude. Acting nonchalant and STAYING, just shows that you're trying to get with her still. Either she has a bf and you're staying because she's special enough for you to not care, or she's playing games and she's special for you to not care. If I go for a job interview, and they throw something negative (an insult, a bf objection...."shit"), and I stay, I'm telling them I need the job. By brushing off a woman's shit and staying, whether she's lying or otherwise, you just show you are playing to win her. The problem with "passing a test" is the person giving you the test is the one in power. So you putting up with shit, in the first place, doesnt show abundance. Maybe guys should have standards.

I think I started to figure out what he means by setting boundaries. The boundary is a reaction to what he considers to be a shit test but it doesn't stop them from happening again.

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Are you saying M, that you should set boundaries, and when women cross them, brush them off, use humor or redirect, and THAT shows that its a strong boundary? And to set boundaries, that you accept women will cross constantly to test you? And that you should have strong boundaries but not react when crossed?

I think what you mean, is that you shouldnt compromise your values/opinion for a chick. If she says she has a bf and you dont care either way, game on. If she thinks your shirt is gay, dont care. If you dont want to buy her a drink dont buy one. Doesnt need to get deeper than that. If a noob can remember those lines and responses, they can remember that one philosophy.

Couldn't have said it better myself. The caveat is when women TRY to cross them with shit tests. If your boundaries are strong then their tests just bounce off and your frame becomes implicit to the woman that you are who you present yourself to be (the persona and the person are one and the same) but if the woman DOES manage to get through them with some armour piercing barb that's totally unacceptable like a nuclear shit test then you CAN react and you react by dumping her. That's what someone who comes from a place of abundance does.

Think of your emotional state as being like the starship enterprise. Your boundaries are the ship's forcefield. If you have a strong forcefield (boundary) then her photon torpedos (shit tests) are just going to bounce off and have no effect on the ship (your emotional state) and her stress testing of your forcefield (boundary) reveals to her the strength you hold within.

Another analogy would be: Suppose you an accountant and you know you're a good accountant and some kid in the street shouts...

"Hey Mr, you're a shit accountant!" are you going to get all upset about it? Are you going to lose sleep over it? No. You're just going to say "Yeah whatever" and forget about it. Your emotional state will be unperturbed. It's like a BB gun against your boundary.

Now suppose the CEO says to you "Hey Neo, you're a shit accountant!" Well that's a mega hit on your boundary with sirens going and flashing red lights, but if you're good at accounting then you know inside it's not true. AND.....coming from a place of abundance you know that another accounting job is just around the corner (meaning another hot babe) and you can just walk away with nothing lost.

[ Now suppose MR Melodical from IT says to you on your first day as a noob "Hey Neo the boss isn't really a cunt, he just likes to spring "You're a shit accountant" on new employees to see how they react, as he's looking for a man who can cope under pressure to promote to a partnership in the firm, last 10 guys got all upset and fell to pieces" Now is that valuable information?....you see where I'm coming from with this?]


A person with weak boundaries would let a woman influence his emotional state and put up with it just because she's a 9 or 10 or whatever. This type of guy becomes an orbiter; doing nice things for her in the hope that someday they will get together in some Hollywood fantasy.



Women want you to pass these tests and you can sometimes see it in their eyes when they're testing you.
In the back of their heads they're thinking "C'mon don't react,don't react, I don't want some wuss who is going to get all upset".
Someone on here once said "How do I know where my boundaries should be?" and got the reply "By doing what YOU want to do" If you want to buy her a drink, buy her a drink, but don't buy her a drink because you want her to like you, buy her a drink because you WANT to.

[As an anecdote on this: Back in my 20's there was a 9 who used to go to my local club every Saturday night and alway came there with no money and got her drinks bought by guys. Eventually she asks me and I say no on the grounds I only buy drinks for girls I'm dating and did she think she was "special" somehow. Anyway she fucked off, but the next week it was the same "Are you going to buy me a drink?". SIX weeks this went on and eventually I found out is was her birthday so I bought her a drink without asking.

Her reply "You fu**ng c*nt". I had won the frame, dated her for 9 months]
Depends on where you're coming from. If you look at the test as: seeing who has the power, then the dynamic switches in your head.
"Have a boyfriend" What it really means.

1/ "I really do have a boyfriend."
2/ "I don't have a boyfriend it's just an autopilot response because you startled me and I feel uncomfortable".
3/ "I don't have a boyfriend but I'm testing you to see if you're alpha enough to stay knowing that you may have to deal with another guy".
Midshipman Jack has sea sickness I think.
If it creates an emotional response like pleasure by doing it then yes it is

What it really means is: "Buy me a drink as I want to see if you're going to be one of my beta orbiters or a real man who will stand up to me and be my rock".
It's testing your sensitivity and social skills.
Most new guys are needy, unconfident and lack social skill that's why they want to learn PUA, if they were naturals they wouldn't be here.

This pretty much reinforces everything I was saying that most guys don't know what they are talking about when it comes to what a shit test is. For instance, you explain what "Buy me a drink" really means. However, you say when you set your boundary it's actually okay to buy a girl a drink if you want to. If this were really a shit test you've failed if you buy her the drink. She at this point should be seeing you as an orbiter and not someone who can stand up to her and be her rock.

What's funny is that you even go on to explain to the new guys that the girl that spent SIX weeks shit testing you with "buy me a drink?" didn't start dating you until after you bought her a drink. Then again, I get that you've been reading old seduction forums who promote having "comebacks" to when they feel they're being tested and in actuality really don't understand women. Go talk to real women that go out to bars. Most of them get a kick out of how they can get men to buy them drinks. It's not a test, but instead it's a validation. It in no way means that if a guy buys them a drink it means that she'll make him an orbiter. It means that guys buying her drinks reinforces that she's attractive to men. It justifies the hour they spent in front of the mirror.

What she is really saying when she says "buy me a drink?" is "I think you're attractive. Do you think I'm attractive?" Regardless if you buy her the drink or not, she just opened you. If you say something like "I only buy drinks for girls I'm dating," you're not giving her anything that let's her know that you think that she is attractive so she'll likely walk away. If you buy her a drink and think that she should like you because of it and shouldn't have to lead the conversation from there, she'll likely walk away and you'll probably feel like you've been suckered into buying her a drink. If you instead say something like, "just because you're pretty you think men will just buy you drinks?", she'll likely stick around because you returned her feeling of attraction and not because you came up with a line that passes her shit test.

If attractive women really did test you for compliance, you'd get tested everywhere you met a woman for the same reason. You'd have them asking to buy her a book at a bookstore, wanting canned food in the grocery store, or asking you to fill up their tank at the gas station. It's the fact that most guys don't know what's going on with women that label simple shit as a shit test. They end up looking more socially awkward or gamey, just because they are reacting to them.

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I'd consider "that shirt looks gay" to be somewhat of a test, but I'd just respond "Thanks. My grandmother knitted it for me. I've got a pink one, too"

there's no hacking involved, lol.

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I grew out of the dumb shit I used to say on here. Most of my posts don't represent who I am today at all.

That's not a test. It's teasing. Teasing is one of the things that guys do to build attraction and when we do it to a girl, we don't call it a shit test. Hell, this is more of a neg than a shit test. If you neg a girl, are you testing her? Keep in mind, I'm not suggesting to neg because those get misinterpreted as being insulting a lot (like guys confuse teasing as shit tests).

Your response to it is fine because it is a continuation of the teasing and turns it into banter.

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Indeed. It can be a dilemma as it could mean you're being suckered for a drink because the girl is using her pussy pass to get what she wants and you're blown out soon after. Or it could be an intial compliance test to check your forcefield. In both cases I don't buy a drink.

I have a criteria for this. I only buy drinks for girls if they haven't asked for one and they've invested time with me.

That way you can show your interest from a "balls on a plate perspective" Meaning that you're demonstrating you find them attractive and thus showing vulnerabilty to be blown out but the reason is: If it happens it's no big deal as you're very confident and come from a place of abundance and also shows you're not a tight wad (meaning successful).

My personal opinion is that if a girl is really into you they never ask you for a drink, but before they get to know you (first 10 minutes of the approach) they may do.

The six weeks girl I won the frame because I decided to do so of my own volition not because she asked me. She knew exactly what she was doing but so did I.

It's the nature of an orbiter to be compliant, in fact it's the definition of one.

I'm not saying be an alpha dick about it.

Her: "Lets go to xyz bar across the road".

You: "Shut the fuck up bitch I'm in charge here"

Meanwhile you were planning on going to go there anyway.

The rule of thumb is to do what you want to do and not be reactive, so you would reply.

"Yeah I was thinking that myself".

Which is a good teasing response. No hacking for you, or Jack or Neo but that's because you know full well what's going on.

A noob however might feel embarrassed or get defensive or even worse try to justify the gay shirt (allegedly gay) and drop in composure instead of teasing back.

If you had a student who got that remark in realtime and he was wearing an earpiece the first thing you would say to him over the air was "It's a test don't react just tease back".

My hacking post is that earpiece before the event.