One thing that I see time and time again on this forum is people asking "do looks matter?" and the answer is always different. I'm over here convinced that looks don't matter, I see some guys with a decent level of experience and knowledge saying the same as me, but I see a lot more guys, also with experience saying that looks do matter. Example:
and: Now I'm not saying that they're wrong, because firstly they're not, and secondly who am I to say that they are? What they're saying is true, word for word. Absolutely undeniably true - and in my opinion, the same goes for what I'm saying, which looks like the opposite. However, I don't think we disagree at all, I just think "do looks matter?" is two different questions, depending on the person asking in the first place. We're answering different questions. This is the 2 possible definitions that I see:

1. Does being good looking mate it easier?
Both of the above answers would be perfect to this question. This is coming from a place of "I'm going to do this shit, but I want to know what I'm up against. I want to know how much I should focus on my looks." The answer is "yes, looks matter. Don't be complacent with your looks - a guy who looks like shit is at a huge disadvantage."

2. Is it impossible to get a lot of high quality women without being good looking?
This is where my response comes into things. This is how I always read the question and this is why I was so confused to see so many guys answering "yes" to them. The answer to this question is "no, looks will not make it impossible. Sure you're at a bit of a disadvantage if you don't look like Brad Pitt, but providing you actually take care of yourself then your natural looks aren't going to ruin your chances at all. Looking good is a lot more important than being good looking."

So if you're in doubt, then yes a guy who looks like Paul Walker is probably able to walk up to a girl and do absolutely everything wrong and still end up on an "insta date" at her house, and you'll be lucky to do this 3 times in your life... but that's no reason at all to give up. You can still consistently have multiple beautiful girls in your life by becoming the best possible version of yourself, and you'll find yourself with girls who are rejecting guys better looking than you left and right. I know it takes balls, but stop trying to pass the blame for failure before it has even happened. You will fail, like we all do - that's what's so good about this stuff; you'll improve to the point that you'll look back on old failures and just laugh at how far you've come in what seems like such a little time.

(Now I'm remembering a few years back when I went out on my Birthday and got drunk, then I was hanging outside the club with some friends and kept walking up to girls and asking for a Birthday kiss. Lol, needless to say I never got one).

I'd be interested to hear other guys opinions on this. Maybe you think I'm way off? Maybe this is just common sense to you? Let me know...

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I grew out of the dumb shit I used to say on here. Most of my posts don't represent who I am today at all.

Looks are a factor in attraction, but only initially. If 2 guys are gaming a girl, with everything else being equal except one of the guys is more attractive but the other guy has slightly better game, then the guy with better game will usually get the girl. That's not to say that you should not try to improve your looks with good grooming, fashion, etc. to improve your odds. You shouldn't let looks be an excuse to not game, in fact it should motivate you.

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I agree with the end part. As for the start, I think looks continue to matter in the sense that if you become complacent and think "Well I already attracted her, it's ok" then you're fucked from the start. But again, that's looking good rather than being good looking.

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I grew out of the dumb shit I used to say on here. Most of my posts don't represent who I am today at all.

That's perfect. Pretty much exactly what I'm saying. However, I think "matter" is a little strong. It also matters what accent you have, but I live near Birmingham, England and I do just fine lol.

I can't deny that looks change things, because they 100% do. When I say "looks don't matter" I'm saying "bad looks aren't enough to stop you if you're determined" in the same way that being naturally terrible at physics doesn't prevent you getting a physics degree, it just makes it a fair bit harder. But even then, the person who is naturally bad at physics who puts in sufficient effort, will do better than the natural expert who becomes complacent and tries to rely on natural ability.

Also, guys don't consider the fact that they can BECOME good looking. Get a haircut that suits your head shape, clothes that fit properly and suit your skin tone and eye colour, work on posture and carry yourself properly, work on your confidence (facial expression changes drastically) and you're half way there. I mean look at Gambler before and after. He's not naturally good looking, but he became good looking because he looks good. Looking good is essential, being good looking is quite helpful.

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I grew out of the dumb shit I used to say on here. Most of my posts don't represent who I am today at all.

We all known that seduction is fundamentally tied to one thing and one thing only - how you make a woman feel. And by that I don't mean the clichee bullshit of making her feel "special and loved and showers in endless streams of attention".
I mean what kind of emotions you stir up in her, internally. Personally I love bringing them to the point in which they don't know whether they feel like punching me in the face or jumping my bones. Or both, in no particular order. Maybe even simultaneously. I like to call that being a constant challenge and it's also the reason I tell guys to be a relentless tease. All that built up tension will usually explode in a mindshattering orgasm.
Uncertainty creates really powerful attraction as JackZero once mentioned, and they fucking love it. So do I for that matter.

Anyway, looks. Do you need them? no. Do they help? yes. Is it hard to be good looking? maybe. Buying proper clothes, getting a haircut and shaving that neckbeard are the quickfix. Getting into physical shape is a bit more difficult, but the benefits extend way beyond "getting women". However, when she goes berserk over your sixpack the first time she takes your shirt off.. Gotta admit, it's a really satisfying feeling.

I do agree with JD that the perspective of the person asking the question is relevant.
Still, in my opinion looks are like a car. A shitty car and latest Mercedes model will both get you to your intended destination. However chances are you'll get there faster with the Merc, and you'll have a smoother and more enjoyable experience doing it.
So if you had the option to choose either, which you do, why would you ever choose the first?

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Spot on. Well said.

The main point of the thread is that just because you're not born with something, doesn't mean you can't get it.

50 cent was born broke, Brooklyn Beckham was born rich. Either one could go on holiday right now and their bank interest would pay for it before they got back..

Gambler and Mystery were born fucking ugly, now Gambler looks good.

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I grew out of the dumb shit I used to say on here. Most of my posts don't represent who I am today at all.

In a cold approach context looks matter to the extent that women you approach has to find you good looking enough to consider having sex with you. After that your "game" comes into play.

If she doesn't find you physically attractive enough to have sex with then 99.9% of the time you wont.

If however, she finds you extremly attractive then it can be very easy to get her into bed. Usually you can make more mistkes (such as miscalibrated escalation attempts and saying stupid shit) and still get away with it. You will often get her into bad faster as well.

Looks are important and every guy should focus on maxing his looks out.

Any guy who says that looks dont matter at all is either an idiot or trying to sell something (sometimes both). Even RSD is starting to change their tune about looks.

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A psychologist wrote this in a book a while back and it describes how attraction is created:

Friendship = Proximity + Frequency + Duration + Intensity

You read that and you'll say he's describing friendship, Jack. Well you're right, but when you add the fact that both men and women find each other more attractive the more time they spend around each other (duration).

It's the intensity portion of it that's most important to swing someone that sees you as someone that can see you as a friend to someone that is attracted to you. More importantly, it's the part that will keep the focus on you to increase the duration of time you spend with a girl(especially on a cold approach) and spark sexual desire.

I agree with Warped in the sense that being physically attractive gives you a lot of wiggle room for making mistakes. If you look like the elephant man...you're probably out of luck.

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It's a lot like "do you need to be in a frat to get pussy". No you don't need to be in a frat in college to get pussy, but it will put you in an opportunistic position.

I don't like the HB scoring method but I think it helps illustrate my point below:

For example:
if your natural type of girl you can get easily is say a HB6, then I'd say you're a 6 too.

With good game you may get a couple of clicks up to girls who are HB8 (well done). The HB8 might think "he was kinda cute but he really made me laugh etc. yeah he's pretty cool." The HB8 might be your long term girlfriend.

Its a big leap of faith to say that a guy who naturally can attract a HB6 can get a HB10 without improving your physical looks eg. work out, good grooming, and nice clothes as well.

I believe currently a well groomed/fit guy gets 1 more click for all this hard effort in the gym but you must maintain it indefinitely to keep her otherwise you're not the guy now that she originally thought you were.

Plus if you're spending all your time practicing your curls, you're probably neglecting your game which may suffer a click there perhaps too. (swings and roundabouts)

Maybe this hypothetical guy could date a HB9 for a while, but pretty soon, I reckon she'll think she can do better, or her friends will say that she can.

Just my thoughts on the subject guys

When I see someone ask this question I see it as a locus of control issue.

Someone asking this question is looking for an excuse, either to justify their own short comings and stay the way they are, or to give themself something "less scary" to work on while still feeling like they are doing something to improve their situation.

It is an easier pill to swallow if you blame something outside your own control like genetics for not having what you want. It's also for many less nerve wrecking to work on clothing choices, hair, working out etc, instead of cold approaching and risking that oh so scary rejection. Sadly that's also a good way to avoid taking control and really making meaningful progress towards your goal.

Also I would say somewhere in the area of 95%+ of guys would be happy to some consistantly pull 6's, people like to inflate ratings of women for their own ego's but a 6 meaning above average. Maybe she's not a victorias secret model, but most guys would be happy to be able to pull that cute teller/server/bartender they see on a daily basis.

Now guys who actually do put themselves out there and have success will quickly see that looks are part of the greater package and clearly do have their place, but not until you've addressed the more important issues like growing a pair and getting out there.

Maybe it depends on what type of game you're running and what objective you want to achieve?

A couple of extreme examples:

If you are looking for a SNL and its 10PM in the evening, I'd say you're short on time so a woman is more likely to sleep with you if you're naturally good looking as there isn't much time for her to get to know the really smooth charismatic guy you are beyond her first impressions i.e. its mainly the looks that matter to her and she might not even care about your personality too much if she's DTF. If you are a 6 yourself then you could probably pull anything up to and including a 6 in the short time you have. If you were more attractive say a 9 then you could pull anything up to and including a 9 in this case (roughly) this is more down to raw natural attraction rather than game per se and grooming/fashion would improve your looks and you get an extra click for that taking our guy who's a 6 naturally up to a 7. So in this case I'd say looks matter if you want a hotter DTF girl for a SNL. For our guy who's a 6 naturally he gets a "cute" 7 DTF girl for SNL if he is groomed and has fashion.

If you're looking for a GF(and she's looking for a BF) over a period of weeks, then looks might not matter quite as much to her as your personality, she only needs to think you're cute/ hot enough to fuck and good in bed but as long as you've consistently proven you're a cool, confident fun guy to be with that she enjoys being around then looks don't quite matter as much past that first impression now as to how good your game is at keeping her amused and excited. I believe you get a couple of clicks for game and a click for grooming/fashion. So if you're naturally a 6 with good game and are groomed/with fashion you could maybe achieve a 9 as a long term girlfriend. The reason your GF may be hotter than your SNL'S is you've had longer to demonstrate your game and she knows she likes it. So in this case I'd say game matters more if you want a hotter GF who sticks around.

in both cases you could work out to raise your natural score in terms of physical appearance from the 6 I mention by perhaps a click or two over an extended period of fitness training. But as I've explained above if you're always working out maybe your game suffers a click because you're not focussing on it as much and perhaps a girlfriend who's an 8 is more likely to stick around than the 9 in the long term if you're always working out.

I have a personal mantra: "Everything matters, but nothing is an excuse!"

So, looks matter. Now, the real subject that worries guys in this respect is if it's the thing it matters the most, and consequently, where they should be investing more. And the answer to that would be a very assertive NO.

It's OK to improve one's overall shape, but the amount of investment it takes to build a great body does not have a very high conversion rate in new women, because that's not what's most important for them. Improving fashion takes much less time and gives more reward. In fact, spending your day in the gym and counting calories can actually harm your success with women, because you will have less time to go out, more will to stay resting at night, and less social events to which you can go because they're having dinner at a not healthy place.

This is pretty basic. Think female superstar models. Who do they date? The male model? Or is it the rockstar, the basketball player or the multimillionaire? This should make you think.

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