Ok well I understood R.C's point and advice. Your point as well. But what is your advice?

What do you mean figure out what I want?

I have to agree with R.C., not just because I think he's right, but the "doubt" that your instilling into the OP will not be helpful for his frame going forward. There are many of girls that I wouldn't of got if I would of let the little voice of doubt in my mind have too big of an influence.

Whether she's doing what Jack says or not, with the proper frame he can lead her out of this position. But, doing so will be twice as difficult if his mind is filled with doubt.

Many guys have ended up in LTRs with girls that were once in Jacks position that got through it because they simply "didn't know.

Who knows what she's thinking.. and who cares? How are you going to lead her to where you want her to be? A man doesn't need to be reminded that he's broke, he just needs to be told how to get money. And if that isn't the perspective, I don't see how he's being helped.

How many times have you guys got sexual at your place? And how old is she?

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If it were me, I'd cut the boyfriend/relationship type of stuff and stop being available to her. IMO, it sounds like you've done enough of the "being out" with her. If she wants to hang out, take her back to your place and not to hang out with your roommates. Get her to your place and escalate and if she stops you from escalating send her on her way.

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Let me be clear. At no point do I think that this girl can't or won't come around. I think she's invested enough time into him that there is clear attraction, but I think DA made the correct point which actually plays into my frame of thinking. And Eddie...I tried to avoid bringing it up because I knew the can of worms I was opening...

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I understand very well man.

My advice isn't always "What I think" as much as it is the mindset that one would need to take on to generate the results they want.

Just as assuming attraction can create attraction, assuming sex/relationship can help create sex and relationships.

So I just think its important to be mindful of that.

OP was pretty balanced in his view point and just needed a push in the right direction. But a push either way could either make him or break him in this circumstance.

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She came over 3 times. She was on her period on one of those occasions so I didn't push it then, I let her come to me, which she did.
We got sexual every time.

She's 23.

I brought up my opinion not to instill doubt but just to speak frankly. As I said, it is what it is. Sorry, but girl getting rejected by a guy and then becoming more serious with you, yeah...that's not her being swept off her feet by you. And her "keep dreaming" talk multiple times sounds more like stating a limit than LMR. Especially more than once. I have no idea what "escalate more" everytime means with a chick you're seeing daily. These situations CAN lead to great relationships and sex, but they can also lead to "ljbf" or a stale out. Fact is, if she can do all of this with you like the daily dates and lend you her phone etc, and NOT have sex, her investment is not as high as it appears. Plus, girls lie about number of sexual partners in the first place, PLUS you've found out she has lied or at least hidden things. So the 7 guys...yeah..... dont let her "low" lay count be a reason for thinking she just wants to move slow. So dont be mad because of the dude, but realize that honestly...you already cant read the chick and you're bad at reading where her head is at. This is just to say stop looking at her as the 7 guy hb10 prize who is withholding sex. I wont say keep doing what you're doing, because it's not working. Change up your escalation. If she is saying "keep dreaming", you're escalating incorrectly. Turn her on, and pull back. The other guy stuff is just information. But the problem I see is poor escalation. She could be keeping the limit there because of other guys, or she could be really into you and just moving slow. Not saying to fear things, but accept it is what it is. Regardless, you arent turning her on enough when you get her alone.

I see the doubt stuff not as something that should instill fear in you, rather it should kick you in the butt and tell you not to rest on "well things are going well and she's initiating alot." Hopefully speaking the truth snaps you into taking this girl off her pedestal and escalating in such a way that she is begging for sex. All I'm saying is you now know she can lie, but what matters is you're not escalating correctly either way.

I wasn't speaking to you. Nor did I read your post bro.

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Where did you see "Eddie" in my post? I was speaking to the OP. If you'd like to talk to him privately then Pm him. Till then, when you reply to someone speaking about what I wrote, I'll clarify what I meant to the OP so it doesn't hurt the OP. Some of your shit is ok,but don't play cool on a thread to help the guy. It's a forum lol.

Carry on

Yea but your opinion is based on the OP having her on a pedestal. He actually seems quite calibrated, I hardly think that's the case.

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I'm the only one that mentioned anything about "instilling doubt" Lol

Keep reading my "shit" neo. You'll get there.

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Shit = stuff man. I ain't gonna disrespect your efforts even if I don't agree with your opinion many times. But when I say shit it doesn't mean you give shitty advice for the record. Again...it's a forum..keep the personal jabs out of discussions. You replied to a point that I brought up and I clarified it for the OP. The guy on here who matters at the end of the day. If I disagree with your point I will say so and why. Not pretend that you're not up to my level lol. We are different people and what works for me may not work for you and vice versa. Hence you discuss your experiences doing something and accept that everyone's opinion is just that...an opinion. I say all this hoping that when you do respond to someone's point you just say your thoughts or disagreements..not acting like you're right and everyone needs to follow you.

To RC... I get the pedestal idea from how he excuses her lying whether or not they were serious. She owes him nothing but if they were supposedly open about other flings it's still dishonest. That an the fact she owns the frame of whether sex will happen... Nothing necessarily wrong with it but she knows she has him. By the amount of time they together to start. As I said I just encourage the guy to proceed and escalate better.

I know exactly how stupid confronting her verbally would be. Thankfully I do not have the urge to do so nor do I see any point in it.
My self esteem will be fine most likely, but thank you for the kind words.

Ok, look. I don't know why you think she lied about us being serious, because that's a conversation we never even had. Yes we used to talk about side projects, and that's normal up to a point. But once you start getting "close", the constructiveness of those types of talks goes out the window. It's like push/pull. It works wonders, unless you over-push it.

She never said "he's just a friend" and then went fucking him behind my back. I don't even know whether or not there's something there and frankly I don't care. I just assumed he was friendzoned because that was my read on the guy.

However, I will agree with you on the sex frame thing. Yes, she does own it. But isn't that usually the case? Owning it myself never happened unless I wasn't really attracted to the girl in the first place and couldn't give a shit less about her. Which is hardly any fun for me.