Before anything else N2 is also learning from these discussions on freeze outs; not just sharing his professional insights as a clinical therapist.

Moreover, N2 suffered (or still suffering? not sure if he already broke up with the abusive gf he consulted us about in the past) from an abusive LTR (physical, verbal, emotional and mental).

Either he has learned his lessons well or he keeps on getting into an abusive LTR right one after the next. Based on his posts and initial beliefs, I am postulating that he suffers from a pattern of abusive relationships with women due to some nonverbal communication deficiency in his communication style.

N2 is open minded though as you can see from his last reply to me on this thread. What I am saying is that I still have to suffer from an abusive relationship with a woman because I cut abusive women off immediately before they even get an opportunity to have a long term relationship with me.

I had more girlfriends and LTRs than N2 and still notching the gf count up. I am NOT a clinical therapist. I work on and with the people part in technology products and services. Currently studying in a university to become a corporate lawyer. I love women though and I guess that's my best qualification in disagreeing with a clinical therapist on relationships.

Come on. No need to get hostile.

Why on earth do people use the "dudes back in the day were this way" or "caveman did this." Times have changed. Stop making it sound like world war 2 era relationships just worked. It's more socially acceptable now to get divorced. It's easier now for a woman to get divorced and survive. Ever think that maybe divorce is up because it's easier to leave a marriage now? Whereas a woman would have to stick in it forever, she can walk. If you want to play by world war era rules, go back in time, throw the internet away, throw the cellphone away, marry your high school sweetheart and know that you can pretty much have illegitimate kids in other states and she'll still stay with you.

As to the emotional talk stuff, the concern is WHEN SHE DOES something that crosses a line for you. Not when you're having emotional problems of your own. Do you think in the olden days, men ignored there wives when disrespected? Freeze outs are the exact opposite of what the WW2 guy would come home and do if is wife disrespected them. Heck, they'd quicker slap them which is not a passive aggressive tactic. Now since, a WW2 guy would more likely be direct when disrespected, I could better use your argument to support mine, which would be to address it. Because in both cases, calling it out or slapping your woman is a direct address of the disrespect. But I won't even use the WW2 logic because of the reasons above. But please dont use the alpha male WW2 guy example in support of a freeze out. Because they DIDN'T freeze out their women when disrespected. They didn't use "non verbal communication"

To the emotional talk stuff about your own problems stuff, which was a derailment of what I was talking about, I'll repeat what I wrote. MAKE SURE WHEN YOU GET INTO A RELATIONSHIP, YOU'RE SHIT IS HANDLED. That way you're not breaking down emotionally every other day. That way you're secure in yourself. Have your support systems in place whether it be friends or family. That way when shit DOES affect you, which is inevitable you can go to whoever. But don't be afraid to tell your gf if something is bothering you. The irony is if you're that afraid to tell your gf something, are you really in control? If you telling her hey my job is stressing me out causes her to leave you or lose attraction, was the relationship strong?I never understand why you see relationships as this walking on egg shells thing but still deluding yourself that you're in some kinda control or position of power. Who is communicating strength? The guy not afraid to be say something she may not like, or the guy who is hiding stuff? I dont even think you're agreeing with HH, as far as I can tell his stance is cut and move on. Not ignore to stay.

Your post perfectly shows my point. You think MAN means indirect stuff. You think a man means hiding stuff. A man calls out bullshit or disrespect from her. A man may not necessarily go to his woman for his problems, but he sure as hell isn't afraid to lose her if he did. You play games with women, and wonder why they play games with you. You do passive aggressive stuff and wonder why they shit test. You don't communicate and wonder why you can't trust them. You mistake women being emotional creatures as an excuse not to look for maturity among them. Instead of looking for a woman, who is not a child, and can process simple "hey I don't like that you did this" can understand it was reasonable to feel disrespected, you find the immature chicks who will see this as some weakness. All of that was not aimed at you. It's not some big dream to expect a girlfriend to have your best interest and understand she was wrong, and move on. Fuck whoever you want to, but is it so much to say, as PUAs or whatever, if we are investing all this time in improving ourselves, in meeting women, we can pick women who have a level of maturity where we dont need to be afraid to say something?

Come on. No need to get hostile.

Why on earth do people use the "dudes back in the day were this way" or "caveman did this." Times have changed. Stop making it sound like world war 2 era relationships just worked. It's more socially acceptable now to get divorced. It's easier now for a woman to get divorced and survive. Ever think that maybe divorce is up because it's easier to leave a marriage now? Whereas a woman would have to stick in it forever, she can walk. If you want to play by world war era rules, go back in time, throw the internet away, throw the cellphone away, marry your high school sweetheart and know that you can pretty much have illegitimate kids in other states and she'll still stay with you.

As to the emotional talk stuff, the concern is WHEN SHE DOES something that crosses a line for you. Not when you're having emotional problems of your own. Do you think in the olden days, men ignored there wives when disrespected? Freeze outs are the exact opposite of what the WW2 guy would come home and do if is wife disrespected them. Heck, they'd quicker slap them which is not a passive aggressive tactic. Now since, a WW2 guy would more likely be direct when disrespected, I could better use your argument to support mine, which would be to address it. Because in both cases, calling it out or slapping your woman is a direct address of the disrespect. But I won't even use the WW2 logic because of the reasons above. But please dont use the alpha male WW2 guy example in support of a freeze out. Because they DIDN'T freeze out their women when disrespected. They didn't use "non verbal communication"

To the emotional talk stuff about your own problems stuff, which was a derailment of what I was talking about, I'll repeat what I wrote. MAKE SURE WHEN YOU GET INTO A RELATIONSHIP, YOU'RE SHIT IS HANDLED. That way you're not breaking down emotionally every other day. That way you're secure in yourself. Have your support systems in place whether it be friends or family. That way when shit DOES affect you, which is inevitable you can go to whoever. But don't be afraid to tell your gf if something is bothering you. The irony is if you're that afraid to tell your gf something, are you really in control? If you telling her hey my job is stressing me out causes her to leave you or lose attraction, was the relationship strong?I never understand why you see relationships as this walking on egg shells thing but still deluding yourself that you're in some kinda control or position of power. Who is communicating strength? The guy not afraid to be say something she may not like, or the guy who is hiding stuff? I dont even think you're agreeing with HH, as far as I can tell his stance is cut and move on. Not ignore to stay.

Your post perfectly shows my point. You think MAN means indirect stuff. You think a man means hiding stuff. A man calls out bullshit or disrespect from her. A man may not necessarily go to his woman for his problems, but he sure as hell isn't afraid to lose her if he did. You play games with women, and wonder why they play games with you. You do passive aggressive stuff and wonder why they shit test. You don't communicate and wonder why you can't trust them. You mistake women being emotional creatures as an excuse not to look for maturity among them. Instead of looking for a woman, who is not a child, and can process simple "hey I don't like that you did this" can understand it was reasonable to feel disrespected, you find the immature chicks who will see this as some weakness. All of that was not aimed at you. It's not some big dream to expect a girlfriend to have your best interest and understand she was wrong, and move on. Fuck whoever you want to, but is it so much to say, as PUAs or whatever, if we are investing all this time in improving ourselves, in meeting women, we can pick women who have a level of maturity where we dont need to be afraid to say something?

So toying/poking with/at each others attachment buttons is your philosophy to romantic relationships. In short, you're promoting the use of passive aggressive tactics in a relationship to get what you want out of your partner.

The illusion is this can't ever work for a healthy long term relationship. Why? The relationship becomes about who has the stronger defense mechanisms. It becomes a besting of who's ego beats out the others and dominates the frame in the relationship. I'd seen this in countless couples in my work as a budding therapist; one person would use a tactic (Protest behavior), and the other would follow suit. For example, a partner may pursue the other using various tactics, and the other would withdraw.

This is typically what happens when you have two people with insecure attachment styles. SO, for example, one partner is an anxious preoccupied type, whereas the other has a more avoidant style (the roles can actually switch within a relationship many times). So, for example, the anxious preoccupied person wants to 'fix' things immediately, but the avoidant, who is fearful of being vulnerable wants to withdraw and protect him/herself. Both actually want the love of their partner, they just have different tactics of going about it. The withdrawing partner illicits greater anxiety in the anxious preoccupied partner (the pursuer) and pushes him/her away, or simply becomes non-responsive. What happens when the avoidant comes-to and the war of attrition is over? The anxiety is left behind, you have both partners who are weary and suspicious of each other. Once the 'honey moon' ends, the cycle continues and this is how people slowly fall into abusive relationships.

Withdrawing is probably one of the most damaging things you could do to your partner. It actually shows weakness in that you are unwilling to deal with things in a healthier, more proactive ways other than using punishment tactics. If you believe that's the way to build healthy relationships with people, your mentality is highly dysfunctional, and the relationships you have will only reflect that. I don't fault you for being this way, you learned it from your parents - that was their pattern, and this is what a lot of people lacking in self-awareness do - its in their programming.

People who are securely attached to THEMSELVES do not do this.

Chantos' mentality underscores the dichotomy between the old archetype of men being 'stoic' and silently suffering keeping their emotions tucked away and suppressed, vs. the new archetype bourn out of the Self movement of the man who is in-touch with his emotions and isn't afraid to present them to the world, so-to-speak, unapologetically. Of course this doesn't mean to share your emotions with anyone at any time, nor does it suggest in any way for one to not take any responsibility for themselves.

But to reference back to a bygone era (WW2) and how men dealt with things back then is a really simple minded, archaic, and myopic view of how males should be.

Chantos likely has a cave-man mentality the "it's my way or the highway" unbending/rigid view of how a so-called ALPHA male should be.

I would imagine this poster will (and has) had a difficult time with women until he learns to loosen up on his views and hopefully develop a greater self-awareness in the process.

Never had to do what you're suggesting. And I ve been with many women and have had over 6 LTRs.

Once you set the tone for an adversarial frame in a relationship (e.g., freeze-outs), a new dysfunctional cycle will usually begin. One where manipulation tactics on either end rule, and the relationship eventually fractures due to the various splinters that are left behind from each manipulative tactic used to get what you want.

Relationships are supposed to be partnerships. 'Freezing-out' is a tactic that is contrary to forming healthy relationships with people. One would be far better off learning effective, clear communication of needs rather than resorting to such infantile, passive aggressive and highly caustic tactics.


Freezing-out is merely a form of punishment (in the classical conditioning sense of the word). It is the equivalent to what ignorant parents do to their child when he/she acts in a way that is deemed undesirable. What's the problem with this? For starters when you punish somebody, it tells them WHAT NOT to do, rather than WHAT the desirable behavior(s) is/are. What happens here is that the child (or adult) starts feeling ever-more anxious, not knowing what behavior may illicit a negative reaction from their caregiver or partner. In addition, freezing-out plays on the existential fear inherent in all human beings, that is the fear of being alone. It doesn't feel good when your supposed love one uses their attention and/or affections as a tool to get what they want from you - that isn't love at all in fact, but rather ego. Withdrawing from somebody only serves to infuse greater anxiety in a relationship; this is far removed from any notion of having something healthy. This is such a destructive tactic, yet so much is written about it on this forum. Remember when you wanted to play with the cool kids on the playground as a kid but they acted as though you were irrelevant? I imagine it didn't feel too good. Probably felt pretty heavy for you, lonely, maybe at times you harboured deep-seated resentment towards them, and paradoxically a longing to be accepted, a place to belong. Why go do that to somebody you're trying to build a relationship with? It sounds absurd now doesnt it. Why? Because it is.

Before anything else N2 is also learning from these discussions on freeze outs; not just sharing his professional insights as a clinical therapist.

Moreover, N2 suffered (or still suffering? not sure if he already broke up with the abusive gf he consulted us about in the past) from an abusive LTR (physical, verbal, emotional and mental).

Either he has learned his lessons well or he keeps on getting into an abusive LTR right one after the next. Based on his posts and initial beliefs, I am postulating that he suffers from a pattern of abusive relationships with women due to some nonverbal communication deficiency in his communication style.

N2 is open minded though as you can see from his last reply to me on this thread. What I am saying is that I still have to suffer from an abusive relationship with a woman because I cut abusive women off immediately before they even get an opportunity to have a long term relationship with me.

I had more girlfriends and LTRs than N2 and still notching the gf count up. I am NOT a clinical therapist. I work on and with the people part in technology products and services. Currently studying in a university to become a corporate lawyer. I love women though and I guess that's my best qualification in disagreeing with a clinical therapist on relationships.

I met her one night at a bar,

N2 I'm being serious when I say this. As a thought experiment, I would like for you to attempt to operate in accordance with the following hypothetical assumptions for one month straight:

The relationship and attraction psychology you have been taught is, for whatever reason, incorrect. Deep down, your girlfriend would rather feel the emotional range and mystery of a freeze-out than know exactly where you stand. Deep down, your girlfriend would rather you be somewhat vague than clear cut and predictable. Deep down, your girlfriend would rather fight other women for your attention than know she has it in full. Deep down, your girlfriend is more attracted to you if you flirt with another woman right in front of her than if you look straight ahead and say nothing out of respect. Deep down, your girlfriend gets very uncomfortable and turned off when you tell her you are sad, afraid, uncertain, or unable to do something. Deep down, it is healthier for you to pretend that you can do anything than admit that you can't do something. Deep down, it is more rational for you to be overconfident than a realist.

Basically, assume that you have been taught a flawed modern relationship psychology created by feminists, both male and female. And that this psychology endorses absolute equality between genders and the resolution of differences in a rational, communicative way. And that the attraction model of this psychology is predicated on absolute equality and the resolution of differences in a communicative, fair way.

And beyond these assumptions, realize that when women say they don't like being the victims of freeze-outs, they really mean it. And that when women say they don't like cocky assholes or jerks or players, they truly don't like those qualities. And that when women say they want a nice guy, they really mean it.

BUT realize these very same women pursue and lust for the players, the cocky assholes, the jerks, the bad boys who treat them like they're expendable.

Why? Because being an entitled jerk and being cocky and having a devil-may-care attitude and sleeping with a bunch of different women communicates higher status and therefore higher reproductive value than a friendly open man who is desperate for everything to be equal lest he lose his prize and the functional little relationship. And men with high reproductive value will produce stronger offspring.

Now I'm not asking you to believe or live by any of this. I just want you to think about it, and if you can, pretend that this is how it works for a while. Pretend that there was this primitive way of thinking, then you were taught an advanced way of thinking, then someone else came along and said "there's actually a more advanced way of thinking and it's much closer to the primitive way of thinking." I think you'll be very, very surprised at what you find.

This perfectly makes my point. I mean no disrespect but let's look at facts. You pulled a chick from a guy. She's now your gf. You play games for lack of a better term with her. But now you are the one that she lies to and you have to wonder if she is going to meet her ex in a recent thread. Not trying to bash you or call you out but logically this is what I've been saying. You screened for a girl who likes games. Now she plays games with you. Now you don't know whether to trust her because you use this form of communication. Wouldn't that teach you that maybe playing games in a rs or getting into relationships with girls who play games is not a good thing?

Before anything else N2 is also learning from these discussions on freeze outs; not just sharing his professional insights as a clinical therapist.

Moreover, N2 suffered (or still suffering? not sure if he already broke up with the abusive gf he consulted us about in the past) from an abusive LTR (physical, verbal, emotional and mental).

Either he has learned his lessons well or he keeps on getting into an abusive LTR right one after the next. Based on his posts and initial beliefs, I am postulating that he suffers from a pattern of abusive relationships with women due to some nonverbal communication deficiency in his communication style.

N2 is open minded though as you can see from his last reply to me on this thread. What I am saying is that I still have to suffer from an abusive relationship with a woman because I cut abusive women off immediately before they even get an opportunity to have a long term relationship with me.

I had more girlfriends and LTRs than N2 and still notching the gf count up. I am NOT a clinical therapist. I work on and with the people part in technology products and services. Currently studying in a university to become a corporate lawyer. I love women though and I guess that's my best qualification in disagreeing with a clinical therapist on relationships.