I was not even aware of this. I will look into this and then comment.

Wait wait wait.. How are you in your mid 20s, yet born in 86?

To Vs point on the percentages I don't disagree. As you said it refers to casual hookups. Yes, the players are the ones most likely to bed girls quickly and easily and more frequent. In a club bar scenario these guys kill it. Online they get propositions. So casual hookups they get more women. But these women, even the attractive ones are still dating the beta guys at work. For every 2 alpha she hooks up with casually, she dates or gets into relationships with betas. Because at the end of the day, most people still date and get into relationships with people the work with or are friends with. Now is this settling? We all settle in some way. Maybe the guy she's in a relationship with isn't as alpha as zyzz or whoever and is not her ideal, but how many people truly pick the ideal partner in every way? Hopefully this makes sense, been drinking.

Meeting women at the bar or clubs is statistically one of the most unlikely ways to lead to something lasting. The reason I dislike the terms alpha and beta is because while being alpha is important to pull a girl home from a club, it's less important to getting a girl into bed from work or even social circle. The 10 you had to spit super game to at the bar to get her number, most likely has dated, fucked and been in relationships with guys who would be seen as beta because she met them through friends. Cold approach is admittedly the most difficult way to start a romantic relationship with a woman, and we need to realize that for the majority of boy meets girl situations (work, school, friends) they aren't playing by our rules. So for casual sex the top 10 may win, but the beta guys get the girls into relationships and eventually sex. The average 7 doesn't fuck mostly straight alphas, she may fuck a few but the betas are still getting them.

Mid 20s late 20s. Same diff.

Quite frankly, I don't know why we are even talking about the percents. It points to a truth. Enough said right there. It was actually was my point but, moving on, Zyzz is not alpha. He saw a snake and ran away one time. Regardless, women are sleeping with these types of men in large numbers. To say it was 4s or 5s contradicts the collage of women he has had over the years. At the very least, the 7s and moving up. I do agree with Vs point about guys who go in and pull girls who are several deviations above their own attractive scale. Women do this quite often.
People over the holidays have been saying in massive numbers, this is how they met, and got married. In most instances, it is assumed that this is a bad place to meet but, people said the same about online dating. People are marrying there. I think due to PU and societal narratives, everybody wants to search out some blanket statement that seems to guarantee success; whatever success means? I have met some awesome women at the bars or clubs. In each instance, they were not even suppose to be there that night nor was I and yet, they were much more mentally healthier then women I have met professionally, educated, art museums, cafes or other day game outings. I would not expect to meet my next gf at a bar but, I would definitely not rule out any such possibility. Out of curiosity, where did you meet your gf?

I think it gets skewed quite a bit. For instance, you referred to Zyzz as alpha. IMHO, he was far from that. He just got girls but, he also would spend most of his days staring in a mirror flexing at himself. There is nothing alpha about that. At a bachelor party, we were at a "high end" strip club where I saw one of the most beautiful woman in my life. The entire time, she sat in her chair, played with her hair, and stared at herself. Other attractive women would walk around trying to poach lap dances. She did not care too as men would keep coming to her and she would keep staring at herself only agreeing to high rollers. Going back to beta male vs alpha male, it is much more complex then that. You have omega males, you have zeta males, and again, it just points to some general term. "The finger pointing to the moon is not the moon!"


I have never really noticed a difference. Lets keep in mind e standards and the fact that, what one man deems as a 10 and another are two entirely different things all together. I just find 10s are more entitled and evasive then lets say, a 7 but, I hate this whole number grade thing as it is demeaning. Most times, nobody agrees with the grading scheme anyway. Women I find super attractive lets say! Your point i well taken on social circle, meeting through work or friends of friends. I still do not rule it out but, I also do not wait for it to be given to me if you know what I mean?
Well, IMHO Zyzz is as alpha as Cristiano Ronaldo. Women like to look at them and that is about it. Yes, more times then not, people are meeting through social circle, work, school, friends or online dating. This again is the passive dating role. This is feminine!

Cold approach is the active dating role. It actually takes courage to approach. I have found many situations to be trouble some but, once I handle the logistics, it is a cake walk there after. Lets say, approaching a woman in a busy start bucks, and number closing. Clearly, you wont be bathroom pulling although, I am sure there are a few psychos or sociopaths who would try. In high volume places, everybody is watching you or at least, it feels that way, you feel rushed, and in a hurry to exit. I have developed a bunch of cooping strategies to close in these types of situations. It is also very refreshing to meet this way for the girl or so they later tell me. It is a pretty ballsy thing to do but, I like these types of pickups more then lets say, a bar or party type of pickup.

Returning back to the original point, we are in fact agreement that, the top percentage of men are sleeping with the majority of attractive women. If you look at a Zyzz video of women, there are a few I would not be that interested in but, more then enough I would slam. All the game in the world will not compensate for genetic predisposition. All game does is give more access to women who would normally already be into me.

Nah, this isn't what I'm saying.The top % of men are sleeping with the majority of attractive women...in casual hookup scenarios. Yet, casual hookup scenarios are a very small part of the dating/ relationship / marriage overall picture. People date and in so many different scenarios outside or casual hookup ones, that what they are looking for to have sex, is different in each one. I was surprised when I dated hot girls and found out that their ex's were typically regular dudes. Sure, many girls have the "alpha" guy on their resume, but when they meet someone through their social circle or work, its usually because "he was quirky and I liked that" or "he made me laugh." The average woman, even attractive ones, don't go from fucking "alpha" (or whatever term) to alpha to alpha, throughout their 20s, then settle for simple guys in 30's. They go from relationship to single, fuck some dudes, to relationship and so on. Women are still seeking relationships, even in their 20s, it's just that relationships aren't working as they used to. As you said, the women who are choosing to settle down because their looks fade and their friends are married, that means the werent married when their friends are right? So they're not the majority. Attractive men are single at later ages in life, and its not because they were chasing money, they had some relationships that didn't work out just like women.

As the Chris Rock joke says, you're probably not her first choice. But is she your first choice? So while your girl may honestly prefer it if you looked like Zyzz, you'd prob prefer if she looked like a porn star or whatever your ideal look is. So most people, man or woman, are not with their true 100% ideal. Heck, most people aren't living their ideal life or job. One thing, is that people tend to always think the grass is greener for another group. Black guys say white guys are getting all the girls. White guys say black guys are getting all the girls. Rich guys say the dumb jock is who is getting girls. The dumb jock complains that women are choosing the smarter rich guys. The cock carousel is just another way of saying I can't get women because they're busy fucking Zyzz types. But realistically, the woman who jumps from dick to dick unattached, is still the anomaly in society.

This is the problem I see in the community. People have this notion that they only can go 1 or two pips above their league using game. I think I am following you now Joe. When you use the term PU you are referring to just a cold approach of you walking up to a girl and opening her. In this case then yes you are limited, unless you know how to form the romantic connection. (Justin Wayne)

That being said there are much more powerful forms of approaching out there. For instance Adam Lyons SS game allows you to become surrounded by a bunch of beautiful women. In turn this increases your status so high that it doesn't matter how you look. You get that whole Ron Jeremy effect.

You can also use Stealth Seduction if you are by yourself in a club and create that "I'm the Man" aura which allows you to penetrate the looks barrier.

To me you making a statement like that is the same type of cop out the sexodus guys have. You just give up and resign yourself to the fate of yes girls instead of taking steps to reach the next level.

You can't tell me the stuff doesn't work unless you have thoroughly tested it. Even then I probably won't believe you because it's working for so many other guys out there (including myself) so I would just think you are making some amateurish mistake then blaming the system.

Going back to DYD (i know he got a lot of contexual things wrong because he wasn't field testing, but some principles are spot on)

You have factors like looks, humor, and status, that play the major roles in attraction.

If you walk around just creating subconscious attraction you actually probably won't get very far. Which is what that whole book is about.

In any PU scenario there are many factors at work. You have things like subconscious attraction - backwards rationalization, cognitive dissonance, status, intelligence, humor, cocky-funny, confidence, flirtatious, I believe there are a few other things one can do to increase subconscious attraction. This is the stuff I use. All of that makes her body attracted to you, but then you have , social conditioning. This is what the woman's brain is programmed to be attracted to. She considers her friends and family and society when deciding whether or not she really likes this guy... fucking sheep. If she is a slave to this programming (low level consciousness) then regardless of how subconsciously she is attracted to you her conscious mind won't agree and she will not go for you.

The reason why JW, Adamn Lyons, and Gamblers tactics work is because they bring the subconcious attraction to the surface and into her conscious mind.

JW does it by sweeping the girl off her feet and making her fall head over heels in love with you. It's not about a casual fling or hooking up here. You make the girl FALL IN LOVE. Not that fleeting infatuation attraction stuff. I'm talking a traumatic impactful love. You know that stuff women commit suicide over.

Adam Lyons does it by increasing your status to a celebrity level so her conscious mind is fully aware that you are accepted by society. She see's women who look as good or better than her in your circle fighting for your attention. So all of the subconscious attraction meets her conscious mind and she has no objections regardless of how you look.

Gambler achieves this same affect by making it appear that you know everyone and all of the beautiful women in the club are your friends. If you use an unbreakable opener on the hottest girl in the club the rest fall in line.

That being said. A cold approach that rely on natural abilities, (or some canned routine) will only get you your natural results. IE the girls who are naturally attracted to your style of comedy and look level, and their social conditioning matches up with them allowing themselves to be with you.

_________________
I am a hunter of human excellence. I seek out those individuals who break the norms
and demonstrate to all of us what’s really possible. I learn what those few
extraordinary individuals do that’s different from everybody else, and then emulate
them.

I fully agree with alot of this. Things are taken with the context being a certain style of game (eg, natural) and then inferences are made off of this for all dating scenarios. For eg, do looks matter? If you're going up to women directly and expressing interest off the bat, then yes, she has to make a decision based mostly off your looks. However, if you're talking to a woman casually for a while, your looks matter less. Likewise if you're doing the whole social proof thing, you can get away with being less good looking. Hence I was making the pt earlier that what girls go for in casual hookup scenario is not always what they go for in their regular dating lives.

Exactly. I don't know your stance on this but I believe that women with different psychologies react differently to things like sexual tension and how direct you are with them. Some women require that you are upfront about your intentions, but even then you have ways to get around the look barrier. IE forming the romantic connection.

Anyway, to take this a step further if you use your particular style and it doesn't factor in calibration then you actually will lose some of those women who were naturally attracted to you. So your results are actually worse than what you could get anyway. You can consider these different levels in the game.

Level 0 sexodus, mgtow, paying for 5 dinners in the hopes a woman will sleep with you.

Level 1 you learn how to play from someone then use his knowledge in your own life and run around approaching women and being rejected off of your looks and poor skills.

Level 2 you run around being rejected off of your looks and poor skills but you don't care and are getting laid using salesman tactics of playing the numbers game. This is the ceiling for natural gamers and routine guys.

Level 2.5 you learn different skills and learn how to calibrate yourself. You become many times as effective and you no longer get rejected because of skill. You have many more options, but you still have a looks barrier, and you play a numbers game. Vin-Dicarlo I believe is the only person in the world who allows a PUA to acheive this level through 1 system. If you know anyone else let me know. This level is obtained when you gain advanced knowledge about female psychology. You don't need Vin to gain access to all of the knowledge about different female psychologies though.

Level 3 - you learn from one of the 3 guys I mentioned earlier. You no longer have a looks barrier, and if you obtained level 2.5 before going to level 3 then you won't be rejected from women who you could have slept because you're acting in a way that is congruent with her belief system.

Right now I'm in between level 2.5 and 3. I played at those lower levels, and now I'm trying to gain the best skills in the world. I made a post about my level 2.5 game you can view here an-idea-about-pickup-for-programmers-vt186276.html there I talk about a flow chart I created a while back.

Side note: I don't know where this falls it might be level 4. or a bonus level.

Use nlp or some brainwashing technique on your Social Circle or cold approached women and turn them into the best version of themselves so that you can feed off of each other in an infinite loop where you make them stronger they make you stronger you make them stronger they make you stronger. In my estimation this will only work if they are exposed to you over a prolonged period of time. I just got a book on nlp, and they say something about using social conditioning that is already there. I really have no clue about this stuff or it's capabilities. I'm just now considering this new level after talking to Joe in another thread about hypnosis. hypnosis-confidence-vt186651.html

The reason I'm not making this an official level is because you can simply find and befriend people who are already like this and you don't have to use mind control.

_________________
I am a hunter of human excellence. I seek out those individuals who break the norms
and demonstrate to all of us what’s really possible. I learn what those few
extraordinary individuals do that’s different from everybody else, and then emulate
them.

I could be mistaken but, did Justin Wayne get called on being a fraud? I saw some link and someone mentioned something here. about it?

I mentioned earlier in a thread about smashing a woman's self esteem and psychology was what a random natural had suggested. She said he has no game. He said that above before doing a bunch of psychological female destroyer tactics and this girl was taking off her clothes begging for it. Quite frankly, I cannot bother to become the sort of man that will destroy her self esteem to get laid. In order for her to feel attraction for a man, he must be better then her, and to do so, he must shatter her self esteem. She will then sleep with him or gangbang with toilet cocaine. Its fucked. Simply put, I want women who want me. I am not going to fuck up her head or tweak away at her insecurities to mold her into what I want. Like or don't. There is women who will just like me.
I have seen several people mentioning Adam Lyons divorce. Not sure if there was trolling going on or if he actually is being divorced. Acquiring women is what douche bags do but, keeping a woman is another thing all together. I mostly paid attention to MM. I got on with some Tyler and nimbus, blue pills, and a bunch of things. I did like what I saw of Adam Lyon before he got married. Seeing Tyler have a couple kids and still bossing it is impressive.
I am confident in how I am, look, and feel. I am more then enough. For some women, it may or may not be what she is looking for and that is okay. I don't like everyone and everyone doesn't like me. Its cool.
I think you have bought way too into PU that someone can sprinkle some game here or you can chase down that carrot on a string. I think this shit had been sold to men to exploit our insecurities that, there is some woman or more game, something to be that will fill those holes in our life. Interestingly, the game was what brought the spotlight on PU in the first place but, the message was lost. What I took away from it was that, if you don't get women, there are ways you can change your life in order to become that man. More importantly, once you are capable, there is more to life them chasing down women. I am not a PUA man. I never intend to be. To be honest, I have already come farther then I ever thought I would. If you google my user name, you would find more about my dark past. I seriously woke up one day and lost everything. It feels amazing to be where I am now.
Dude, I don't care. I date some girls who like me and I meet some more girls who I like. Approaching women does not pay my bills. Paying fraudulent "PU coaches" who are caught red handed for paying actresses is not something I care to be. I am not looking to become the next PUA champ of the universe.
To me, the game was a book about a man's journey in life. He never got women and he evolved into a man who realized that there was more important things in life. Its great to have a beautiful woman but, there are other things to accomplish in life.
So, I then go approach more girls who like me. I feel no concern to that. If she is not interested, its her loss. I want to build a great life for myself. For a us, when I get to that point but, for now, I want to accomplish a lot of individual goals in my life. I might start my bucket list.
I don't know. I would have to take your word for it. I have seen the women sitting in on some of these PU videos and I no doubt bank they are paid actresses. Someone already got caught recently. I am sure more and more will. I would feel foolish chasing this life down forever. I honestly got into this for love man. I don't want to do this forever.
again, I don't know enough about it to have an opinion. I just approach, she likes me or doesn't, and I pull or I take her number. I then go meet some more girls. It seems like circle.
I am not a celebrity though so, that kind of status would be fraudulent. I know this old guy who was banging strippers. He made one a gf. Over time, he wanted to stop doing the blow, the party life, he wanted her to be his wife, and the mother of his children. She liked the fast life. They parted and she hit the old dusty trail due to her lifestyle choices. He went onto have a family.
Define "unbreakable opener." I just talk to loads of girls and hookup with those I like and that like me.
That is all care about being with.

Well the whole JW fruad thing. That's up to you to choose to believe it or not. I did research and discovered the truth of the matter for myself. It goes back to that whole being brainwashed by media and mass marketers thing (in this case JW competitors).

The Unbreakable opener is a Gambler Technique. Basically you disqualify yourself to the girl so she knows you aren't hitting on her and she'll be open to a friendly conversation. So you sit there and chat with her while all of the lesser women watch. Then you go out and have your pick of the litter.

I'm into field testing and provable results, not a bunch of random theory. Everything I talk about I've tested or I say it's theory. I'm not being lead with a carrot in my face hoping to become the P4P greatest PUA in the world. I do have to obtain the greatest skills I can in order to obtain my goals. I have a world class mind so it's only right I reach for world class levels. You already know what they are dating up millionaires and what not.

The Adam Lyons comment about the celebrity status being fraud... It's not fraudulent IMO because you actually are surrounded by beautiful female friends. It's not my fault if I am perceived as a celebrity by others.

Anyway, I understand if you don't want shoot for the stars and if you fall you land on the moon, but I personally don't like the idea of choosing women from a limited pool.

_________________
I am a hunter of human excellence. I seek out those individuals who break the norms
and demonstrate to all of us what’s really possible. I learn what those few
extraordinary individuals do that’s different from everybody else, and then emulate
them.

Bottom line, they are getting the girls that the majority are not getting. The alternative is beta males swearing away half their net worth and risking it. Based upon the stats, 2 out of 3 divorces being filed by women, sexodus men want no part of it. Whether casual hookups are as you say, a small part of relationships, I am sure if we were to check the stats, the casual hook up girls are likely more prone to infidelity, divorce, and pawning men off with children that are not his. This is speculation but, I would post a link to such info assuming I were to come across it. So, the Zyzzs of the world are getting all the pussy.
A lot of the hotter girls go from hot girls to not so hot over the course of their 20s. There are men in their 40s who are still fucking really attractive young women. They were likely riding the cock carousel, living in blissful ignorance until the players, the Zyzzs, the psychos and sociopaths stop calling her. Now, she is onto the next phase; that being serious relationship, marriage, children, talking about being a good girl, and of course a husband. Sexodus claims men to be disposable. In the current court system, man is disposable, and his income is a safe haven for a woman.

I can link several Tyler videos that describe a lot of what I am saying. Honestly, I would not wish this shit on my worst enemy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8qgv1l-CR4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGEO6ig8WsM

Now, people could argue, this is brain washing you. Sign onto social medias and look up the really hot girls now and over the next few years. Its tragic many of times.

This is kind of a cop out the way people use equality in the workplace or talk about gender neutrality. In a linear theory, these egg heads will say it works but, in reality, it does nothing for men and women on a sexual level. Stay with me for a moment. Your point is valid in regards to the looks. What is not valid is that, she would be fucking the Zyzzs who in short, will not be calling her so, she settles down with the one who will as her looks begin to fade. In the event the relationship does not workout, she is compensated with spousal support and child support. In places like Canada and USA, she can collect social assistance, welfare or disability, and even being 50 50 parent, you as a man are still having to pay her child support. The problem is with being her second or last choice is that, she never wanted that man, and this is why 2 out of 3 divorces are being filed by women. Tyler had a video where he discussed her being ¨needing to support her when she is 33 and done with hot guys.¨


Ironic, I feel you are doing just that; thinking the grass is greener. Why was sex and the city so popular? Next we have fifty shades which promotes BDSM which is illegal I might add and yet, women cannot read enough of this smut, it is not becoming a major motion picture coming out Feb 14 (talk about cliché).

Having sex with the cock carousel woman is what most do in PU. Worst, most of these men get a oneittus for them or raise children with them. Some men marry them and start a family. Ask KW. The Prince swore away half his kingdom not too long ago. Suggesting that these types of women are the anomaly is ignorant when we look at the facts. Look at the amount of low level consciousness and uneducated programming that gets directed too women. Sadly, they eat it up. Its the Kardashians, 16 and pregnant, Sex and the city, fifty shades are all an example of that low level consciousness I am speaking about. If there was nothing there, if these types of women were the anomaly, people would go broke trying to put out that bullshit. It continues to sell. Why?

Sadly, because something within them resonates with that bullshit. Sex and the city promotes being a slut and a tramp but, not too worry, someone with a lot of money will marry you. Always, these movies tend to end with marriage being the be end all in life for women. They get there and then, more times then not, they are the ones filing the divorce again because they get compensated for. Further more, they have been taught and programmed to want marriage. She has been taught she is a princess, that she don't need a man, that she can do no wrong.

I have a very anxious attachment style. You may have a more secure style. Assuming things go well with your girl and you settle down, sexodus or mgtow would never be a concern to you. If things do not take and you enter into the current court system, you will sing a much different song then you have.

Provide a link. Some source to say for or against. The link I found was not all that promising.
Could you not just go talk to her?
I am seeing fraudulent stuff in PU most recently the day game crap. We will see more and more of it in the future. Out of curiosity, how much money have you spent? How much BC? books? PU resources have you paid for? How many programs attended?
How old are you?
There is an abundance of women. Its a marketing scheme imho that suggest picking from a limited pool. You have women in your life. You contact or hangout and have sex. You see who you connect with and you progress from there. A lot of this is marketing bullshit and as someone said, most of the shit has been done before. It just gets marketed ever so slightly different and people eat it up.

Hey Joe, can't write much but it seems like you're saying what is happening in the media equals changes in mentalities. I can go along with that if you tell me, "this is the effect in seeing in real life.. I'm consistently meeting women who are KK types everywhere. I have met a large number of women who say no to settling down because they want to party and fuck." Tyler as you said is misogynistic, should we really be listening to him, especially when he has incentive to describe things in a certain way? If you say most women are these ways, say how the majority of women you meet are this way. People love hunger games, but there wasn't a big increase in archery lessons. People loved Harry Potter, didn't find a lot of girls who learned wicca. Yes media is full of these messages but HOW are they effecting the average attractive woman?

Stats suggest just that which is why there is sexodus. I deem this as mean not wanting to part with their resources to a unjust system. Traditionalism is upheld but, it is only a one way streak. More and more women want marriage but, they do not want nor understand the role of house wife or gf.
That would go without saying. The gangbang and my body wants children were inside the same week. I mention more PU with other women I deem to being better quality and caliber. Regardless, I am seeing more and more of this.
PU as a whole has an incentive. Marriage serves one purpose; keep society orderly. After children, there is little left to keep a woman from acting the wife part. The court system guarantees that the man has to up hold his end of the agreement with little to no liability for a woman outside their being a dead beat.
The increase in promiscuity by females is beyond a bulleted point. It is a given in the world today. I do PU so, this is fine. I am thinking more and more we as man have evolved past marriage. You would agree that fifty shades and sex and the city do not promote a higher level consciousness for women? Needless to say, the gangbang woman or the woman seeking to get pregnant are obvious example of low level consciousness and uneducated women.
These medias and programming are typically directed to men or young children. Sex and the city and fifty shades are directed to women. There is a social agenda in works. People cannot see it. I don't need a man is a perfect example of poison dropping mother fuckers. In the same instance, we have these same types of low level consciousness women seeking spousal and child support. They will then go on rants about their independence despite the court system spoon feedings.

The movies of low level consciousness suggest to women that their actions have no consequences. They can ride the cock carousel, they can run around shopping, buy shit they cannot afford, and some schmuck will marry them taking on the burden of their bad decisions both financial or other.

Does your gf watch these kinds of movies and read these books? I made a point on reading Winston Churchill and people jumped up and down in a puff of smoke. The point is not the one individual but, working towards a higher level consciousness. Its not about not needing a man or woman. Its one thing to promote independence but, how does this shift change in a family or relationship dynamic? When something is broke, our grandparents fixed it. The current generation takes on a more disposable approach. Buy something else or go back to online dating. Divorce current husband or wife. Find new one. The grass is greener else where.

The solution I can think of is to finding myself involved in other activities. Doing PU as a way of life but, it is not my end goal to be the #1 PU in the galaxy. Its more marketing and crap. One of the best articles I have ever come across in PU was by LS Bonsai which reads, ¨you are a perfect 10 already.¨ For me, this is all about creating a better life for myself. Overcome anxiety and AA through a bunch of different behaviors and experiences. Date girls I have similar interests with. Be the strongest version of my self the way Elliot Hulse talks about. Take myself to a higher level of conscious. Go first. Law of state transference. Law of attraction. Fuel my mind with resources that will take me toward my larger and short term goals. Burn the boats. Cut off all other options.