"Loss of self-respect" tells me you're too outcome focused which is good to be aware of so you can fill those validation holes from within, rather than depending on others to fill them for you (which leads to all sorts of self-esteem issues - we can't be 'perfect' in everyone's eyes all the time). You're going to have to put in the grunt work for yourself if you want things to change with women, people in general, and most importantly the way you feel towards yourself (which is directly correlated to the vibe/energy you put out to the world).

You know when guys try acting confident, how often times it can come off as arrogant (over compensating), or just plain weird? You've gotta be the change you want to see in the world (Eckhart Tolle talks about this often) meaning it all begins and ends with you. If you don't learn to satisfy your own needs by YOU first and foremost, you'll always be hungry looking outside yourself to fill the void. Why do you think so many people swing from relationship to relationship? They're scared of being alone, they're scared of themselves (e.g., they fear going deeper into their emotions so they seek escape - maybe they'll learn to numb themselves through drinking, gambling, shopping, internet porn, or women but in the end they're still alone and all those emotions they'd denied start simmering to the surface causing even more dis-ease).

I've been saying this a lot lately in my posts, because well I believe in it and I try to be as authentic as I can which sometimes is a challenge. You need to have a connection with yourself first before you have one with anyone else, and most ppl say they do but they truly don't know what that even means. And I'll tell you this much, if after a rejection from some random you feel all shaken up inside, that's an indication that there's work to be done on YOU, not "what technique should I have applied/what think could I have said differently to alter the outcome?".


People all too often want the quick fix. The quick fix/bandaid is not addressing the problem, it's only prolonging the inevitable of not dealing with things. The harder path is usually the one that is most rewarding and leads to lasting change.

Figure out the person you want to be, what does that look like? Write it all down. Design a path that will take you there (there are multiple paths and some you'll find will need adjusting along the way). Be honest with yourself but dare to dream too. This shit won't happen in a day, so don't put your life on hold for it, if you want to keep doing this pickup stuff keep doing it but address that you need to do some work on your self which is far more important.

When you're on this path you'll realize women aren't the end-all-be-all and that will reflect in your attitude that you put out into the world/cosmos/universe whatever.

This is an old thread that I'm just updating on. I was told by The Fury that she didn't seem interested and that my game was weak besides, left it for a while, now just giving it another go.

Sure I wanted to make things sexual with her, but as I said, I took her response as a rejection and responded accordingly (as I said, dudes on here already advised me she probably wasn't feeling it anyway). N2the void said low investment and I agree entirely, but as I said, 15 texts in. What could I have done differently to gain more investment (Bear in mind also that she's a Christian who knows I'm anti-religion so possibly a bad set for that reason anyway). Have a read of the whole conversation. I accept that it's dull and try-hard in places. Again, just giving it a go. I'd be more enthusiastic about a new girl, much as I have no love for getting rejected by an old one.

We'll call me Joe and her Jane.

Me: Hey Jane! Don't know if you remember me but I'm a friend of Will's. Me and will don't really hang anymore so chances of bumping into you are slim. Just wondered how it's all going, from cakes to life in general, etc. Joe
Her: Oh hi, yea I remember you - it has been a while! Hope you + will didn't fall out or anything. I'm doing good thanks and yourself?
Me: I'm good thank you! I keep forgetting its Friday night which is party time for everyone else! I'm working weekends now so just another weeknight for me! Are you out painting the town?
Her: Ah shame. I'm currently unemployed so it's a night in for me too. Not much of a party animal anyway tho tbh =)
Me: How about the cakes? I'm sure I saw your advert: "Jane's cakes: they'll make your tastebuds quiver". Or maybe I dreamt that
Her: Still doing them but business is quiet. Im going to uni in October so I don't want to push them too much. What you up to nowadays then?
Me: Business quiet? You should bang a gong on that mofo. I'm working at a warehouse and writing music in my free time. Both going well.
Her: Haha maybe. That sounds great, glad things are going well for you =)
Me: I'm glad you're glad so what are you doing at uni?
Her: Spanish + Portugese =) it was kinda a last minute decision that just amazingly fell into place at every step! Whats the music you've been working on?
Me: Hey! Another beautiful the day the lord has given us! My music is me singing and playing my own songs on guitar. Pretty awesome I'm told. Spanish and Portugese sounds good. Are you very advanced now?
Her: That's cool, what kind of genre would you say you play? I could hold a conversation in Spanish but i'm starting portugese from scratch
Me: I'd say its rock, but not too heavy if you're inclined to be scared that way. Yo hablo un poco myself but couldn't hold much of a conversation. What are you up to today while I'm stuck at my desk?
Her: Oh cool. I'm working on a few bits + pieces - writing a preach, working on songs, costing cakes etc.
Me: Jane don't preach, I'm in trouble deep, haha. Dude that sounds like a lot of multitasking. I prefer to stick to one thing at a time. Typical guy I guess, only do one thing at a time and only think of one thing
Her: Haha, Fair enough
Me: You write songs as well do you? What's your vibe (Just leaving office for gym so will catch your reply later)
...the rest you know...

So quite a long conversation, and still no investment to speak of when I tried to get a meetup.

I can accept that I was petulant in my response that N2thevoid referred to, at the time I decided I wouldn't care but I guess I did or I wouldn't have replied at all.

Anyway point is, just a very tough nut to crack or am I just doing it badly?

For the record, I tend to hate these forms of communication. If you read the posts above, you'll see I tried to phone her and she suggested texting. I initially resisted but then went back in a rather needy way. This was an attempt at a compromise but as I said, I really don't like it. If I'm with someone and can read body language it's a different story, maybe if I'd been with her in person I wouldn't have taken what she said in the way I did. Again though, this was a limit she seemed to set on me which is kind of a pain in the ass. Maybe should have checked out there. Clearly I'm prone to reading text communication in the worst possible way...

_________________
If something's not fun, it's not worth doing

Thanks n2, I'm hearing all that good positive stuff from guys like you and Eddie Fews. Bear in mind I'm very inexperienced sexually, more so even than most guys who haven't heard of game (I posted a thread on this recently which no one replied to), so perhaps you can understand if my frustration is prone to spill over a bit more than it should from odd rejections here and there. Maybe when you've heard "yes! yes! Oh god yes" from women enough times, it becomes easier to put the "no"s to one side. However, when the times you get with girls come from them initiating and your attempts to initiate seem to go nowhere, it can make you feel kind of powerless and frustrated.

_________________
If something's not fun, it's not worth doing

It actually doesn't because your whole barometer for success is externally derived. That's the fallacy; why do you think so many 'successful' people (those with more money than god, endless plethora of women, etc) are never satisfied? 1) they don't know who they are, 2) related to 1) their sense of self is dependent on the world of form - the acceptance (validation) of others.

Yeah man I hear you. However, there's a difference between having stuff and not being satisfied, and knowing that you're not getting that stuff because you're either lame or a dick, or both, which is what I tend to be getting from this forum.

_________________
If something's not fun, it's not worth doing

Nope. In both cases the self is externally derived so as conditions change so does their self perception (which obv isn't healthy but how society has wired us).

ARE you a dick because someone said you were?

ARE you perpetually discontented because your thirst to possess things never quite makes you feel whole?

Both are externally based, both mindsets are grossly outcome dependent.


To my mind, the true "Alphas" are their own people (male or female, doesn't matter). They have a strong sense of self that is derived from WITHIN, not WITHOUT. Only some people ever awaken (become conscious) and realize this - these are the same people who live life with intentionality. The ones who continue on discontented for the rest of their days usually only come to this realization near death when they are faced with their own mortality. These are the same people who live WITHOUT (there's always this steady hum/buzz of of LACK in the background kinda like the hum you hear from those florescent tubes in your local Walmart).


Another way to perceive it:
Internally derived sense of self = Responsive (you are able to answer life's challenges, you have no real patience for dramatic people, and create the life you want to lead with intentionality - your relationships with people are generally stable, enjoyable, and enriching)
Externally derived sense of self = Reactive (you get caught-up in life's diversions, life's side shows and react from one situation to the next, almost all of your close relationships are mildly drama filled to stormy)

Maybe it's that I feel like a bad person for even being here, and yet I can't seem to master that bad boy/dickish behaviour that is supposedly so desirable. I've had girls tell me "you're a dick" in the right way on occasion, but more often than not I'm getting told I'm a dick in the wrong way (by yourself, Neo etc).

What you're saying is true, at the same time it would be foolish to ignore external feedback, wouldn't it? Your sense of self shouldn't depend on what people think of you, and at the same time if everyone thinks you're a cock, there's probably a reason for it.

I'm too hard on myself and I get told that all the time. I don't think anything I do will ever be good enough. I talked about how good my music is and my mate recently told me it was fantastic, 10/10, but I feel like it can't be that good because I made it. It's like self-esteem is this special talent that other people have but I can't fathom.

At any rate, you're right to say that this girl and whether I get her is not the issue.

_________________
If something's not fun, it's not worth doing

Truth. And you wrote that very well.

_________________
If something's not fun, it's not worth doing

What I'm talking about popular psych would refer to as self-actualizating one's self. This is a life-long thing, you don't do it for a few weeks, months, or years and are like "OK! We'll I've finally arrived!". No. This is something you make your life practice. This isn't a jedi mind trick, but once you truly grasp it you may feel you're living the matrix and your perceptions of reality will shift and you'll see the mechanisms in society that promote unconsciousness. You want an example of how unconscious we are? There are literally hundreds daily you encounter. Next time you're at a bus stop, mall, beach, wherever look around you and see how many people are buried in their phones. It's not the phone use in itself that's any cause for concern, it's that people often shift to such technologies to alleviate social anxieties, or even to try and satiate addictive behaviors (Candy Crush anyone??), or go on FB or IG to update their content in hopes of getting "likes" or fish for compliments (lil squirt of dopamine).

When you start creating to feed your soul, and aren't doing it for recognition by others that's where you'll be at your best, and i bet you start creating music that is much cooler (to you, and likely others too) as well. I am a musician, I've been playing guitar for 20+ years people say how amazing my skill is (I only do it as a hobby). When I'm playing FOR ME that's when the music just comes out of its own, that's when I create something I'm proud of. If it comes out of any other energy to me it's just sterile, but I may get a bit of a dopamine rush from other people praising my skills.

Remind yourself of why you're doing something. If it's for some sort of recognition then delve deeper into the the "why" you're doing it...at the core there's some internal need that's not being fulfilled. Figure out what it is and meet it in some other way that's not dependent on someone else's recognition. Figure out the inner world shit, the outer world then has that uncanny way of falling into place.

Another great post, n2 thanks. As it happens, creating music doesn't seem to be my problem. In that area, I do exactly what I want to do and the results are good. Occasionally I get frustrated when the creative process is moving too slow, but basically it's all moving in the right direction. I remember years ago when I had only a few ideas for songs and the lyrics weren't particularly good, I certainly didn't feel I would go anywhere with it. And that's a bit like where I am with women now. Occasionally I do a little something right. In the conversation above, about the only thing I thought was good was the "bang a gong on that mofo" line because during the conversation I became aware that I was looking to her to respond positively so that it would give me that good buzz (the dopamine you're talking about I guess). I realised that I'm supposed to be pumping her state in a positive way, rather than looking to her to enhance mine, that I want to be someone she always feel better for being around. Unfortunately a lot of what I did in that conversation didn't hit the mark.

Part of my problem is I fixate too much on things and am not good at just being "natural" with women the way some guys are. So I had in mind that other thread in which Heywood advised me to post "He sounds perfect." In that instance, everyone agreed the girl wasn't interested, and this was seen as a cool parting shot. I applied the same theory to this (I'd already been told in this thread the girl didn't seem interested, so I was quite ready to see things that way). I figured that if she simply blocked me on the meeting up suggestion without saying anything positive or suggesting anything alternative or even saying "it would be nice to see you" or something like that, then she clearly wasn't interested. This is also backed up by the fact that it took one off colour remark from me for her to throw me out entirely (disqualify as you put it), which suggests to me that she was looking for an excuse. She further said that she doesn't like "shooting people down" which clarifies that this is exactly what she intended to do with her text saying no to the meetup. Therefore wasn't I right to think that she wasn't interested, when clearly that's what she's telling me she meant? And if she's definitely not interested then why not send a cool parting shot like the one I did? Okay, it didn't come off exactly, as you found it "pouty", but the intention was there. Would it really have been worth investing further in this situation?

_________________
If something's not fun, it's not worth doing

Well, I'm not interested in people who have no interest in me. Plenty of people out there who I can vibe with, why invest in one that isn't really worth my time.