I've got two friends, we'll call them J and C.

I've known J for years, and she's always been flirty with me. She'll take my hand and hold it, she'll rest her head on my shoulder, etc... We're good friends and we do a lot of stuff together. Sometimes she just sits in my lap and wraps her arms around me.

Every time I make a move though, she rejects it. For example, the other night, we went out to dinner with her and her dad (that thinks I'm the man), then she wanted to go to another bar so I said OK, then I said we should go back to my place (her dad went home obv). She asked where she should park and if her car would be OK there in the morning. She drives us to my place.

So we're sitting on the couch drinking wine, and I asked her if she wanted to make out. She said, "Are you serious?" in an angry tone, and then said something else. A shortwhile later, she said that you can't just "ask a girl to make out", that you just have to go for it. I have a mutual friend that tried this with her, and she told me how angry she was about it - "He just THREW himself at me and forced his tongue in my mouth". Those two aren't friends anymore.

It seems like women want you to read their minds, but if you ask for any hints along the way, they get mad. They certainly won't give you any advice on how to get there, other than subtle clues that can be interpreted in a myriad of ways. Are there any books or videos the forum members here can recommend on interpretting body language? I'm not very good at it, and its a recurring problem of mine.

Around midnight, while she was talking to her boyfriend over the phone, whispered to me, "I can't sleep over, I don't have a toothbrush", so I walked over and put a toothbrush next to her and walked away (she laughed). Then she moved to my couch and said "I don't have any pajamas", so I pulled out a pair of PJs. She laughed and asked, "Why are you so accomodating?" "Because I'm the man."

She changed into my PJs and was laying on my couch, and I caught her sneak a peak at my crotch. She was laying on the couch on her back, arms above her head, facing me, and I think she wanted me to kiss her, but my previous attempt had knocked my self-esteem down a notch and I wasn't sure how to do it. Do I literally just kiss her? What do I do as an exit strategy if she rejects it?

I went to brush my teeth. When I returned, she asked if we could watch a movie, I said sure, then I told her we should watch it from my bed, because it was more comfortable. She said no (or I'm staying on the couch or something to that effect).

I assumed this was just her automatic reaction, because several months ago when I had asked the same question, she said no, then I asked again a few minutes later and she came over to my bed.

So now I'm laying in my bed, and she's on my couch. I asked again if she wanted to come to my bed and the answer was no (can't remember what the exact words were). A few minutes later she asked if I had any blankets, and I said "there are some right here in my bed."

I didn't want to go over to the couch because I felt like she'd interpret it as me chasing her, but maybe I should have? I felt like once I'd made my decision to sleep in my bed, I needed to stick to it. In retrospect, I could have also picked her up from the couch and carried her to my bed when she was arched on her back on the couch, but I feel like there is this fine line I need to walk and I'm having difficulty walking it, with girl after girl. I have a hard time understanding when it is they want me to do something, and when I'm supposed to just be chill.

Anyways, long story short, I ended up falling asleep in my bed. She had to work at 6AM, so I'm not sure exactly when she left, but she wasn't here when I woke up. She texted me the following night at 12:15AM asking if I wanted to get breakfast the next morning.

What's funny about this girl is that whenever I break communication with her for a while, she tries harder and harder to get to me. I didn't text her for a week one time and she left a voicemail wondering if I was mad at her, etc... I really don't think this girl would make a good girlfriend for me, but I think she's likely a freak in the sack (she tells me how she wishes her bf would bruise her, or that someone would throw her in the closet and just start making out with her). The problem I have is getting her to that state of mind where she wants me to do it to her. She also has real last minute resistance problems and I think is afraid of being seen as a slut.

Any advice here on how to proceed, or what her current thought process would be great. I don't really care if I get her or not, but it'd be a fun lay.

OK so let's talk about C...

C is my roommate, which makes her a pretty bad candidate for fuck buddy, but every time I've hung out with her I've had a blast. I could see her possibly being g/f material. I've asked her if she wanted to make out (No), and we've talked about sexual things between us and its usually been something like "We're roommates, its a terrible idea." Nevertheless she's told me she's thought about having sex with me ("obviously I've thought about having sex with you" were her words lol).

We're still friends though, and she's actually my date to a wedding next month. She was absolutely thrilled when I asked her (which kind of surprised me).

The other night when J came over, I have never seen her so jealous... holy crap. As soon as J came up the stairs it was, "Can you take the trash out?; You guys are going to drink MORE?; blah blah blah," trying HARDCORE to cockblock me and express her disapproval, which was funny, because I didn't think she actually wanted anything from me, but who the hell knows. Again, this is where I fail to understand a girl's signals and what she actually wants. Even J noticed how jealous she was, and thought I was a genious for asking J over to get C jealous. I just played it cool to C like nothing was out of the ordinary.

What's funny is that the past two days, C has extremely warmed up to me, always has a smile on her face while talking to me, and I want to know what I should do to get on that? I'm not very good at flirting, so I need specific advice on what to say, but if she comes back from the gym, can I say something like "Just get back to the gym?" "Yeah" "Looks good." and just play it cool?

I read this post, which I thought was similar to my situation, but unfortunately it doesn't have a real solution to it: girl-chasing-me-forever-then-flakes-and ... 63885.html

So a few questions:
1) How do I get better at reading body language? What resources are available to me to understand what on earth women are thinking at any given time?
2) How should I proceed with J and C?
3) Are there any good posts/websites on the escalation ladder that you can recommend? I seem to have issues going smoothly from one rung to the next, which I think may be the cause of my rejection.

Thank you!

Read "60 years of challenge"

Discard that escalation ladder bollocks, too complicated.

All you need to do is hold her hand. If a girl lets you hold her hand, she likes you. period.

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USER HAS BEEN BANNED FOR REPEATEDLY IGNORING MOD WARNINGS AND MULTIPLE RULE VIOLATIONS

Google Vin Dicarlo Escalation ladder pdf.

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They call me the cat whisperer, cause I know exactly what the pussy needs.

Thanks Heywood. I read that and I'll give it a shot!

PEBBLE, thanks - I will check out that too!

A little update on this -

Me, C, and one of my friends were hanging out, drinking all day. While we were out, she'd be doing things like resting her head on my shoulder, laughing at my jokes, etc...

Near the end of the night, we went to another bar and C and my friend were standing around talking, so I started talking to some other women and started dancing with this cute girl. I was just having fun, and the other girl was into it and gave me her number, but I wasn't really doing anything more than that. I turned around and saw my friend and C making out.

I don't know if she actually liked him, or if she was just trying to get me jealous. When he tried to get her to go back, she told him that she was only interested in a relationship.

I was initially a little hurt by them making out, but I got over it the next day and told myself that if I'm more emotionally invested than she is, this is a problem. I'm a little turned off by her now, and I've decided I should just continue to pursue other women and make myself less available to her.

She's been cooped up in her room since this, and today she came out to ask me a "very important question: should she go to Subway or Dominos for lunch?" I just kinda started at her and said, "Ummm, McDonalds." Obviously this was just a bogus question to start a conversation... a very poor one at that haha.

Anyhow, I think she may be concerned that she hurt me, or something like that. How do I handle this situation so that I come out on top and in the best position?

You fuck other girls and act like she's your sister.

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any Man can sweep any Woman off her feet, you just have to have the right broom...

Find a way to bring J back to ur place again and for the love of god don't ask her to make out. When the time is right just pull the trigger. Never ask, just go for it. And quit asking girls for things, be the man and tell them. You shoulda picked her up and brought her to your bed and started the movie. Then escalated from there. Bring her to your place again when C is there, it'll work to your advantage.

As for C, just keep on doing treating her like a friend. But flirt subtly. Touch her arm when you laugh with her and try to build sexual tension. Find a way to drink with her and make sure she's fairly tipsy. That's when you pull the trigger. You'll have plausible deniability because you're both drunk (at least she thinks you are if you aren't). That's the only way I can think of to make it work without it being awkward because of you being roommates.

Clearly both these girls are into you so just man up and pull the trigger. I also agree read vin de Carlos escalation ladder.

I wanted to give an update on this, and then I need a few suggestions:

I hooked up with C the other day. She obviously wanted to hang out that day, so I said, "I'm going to XYZ for food in 30 minutes, then I'm going to go out. Do you want to join me?"

From then on out, I made decisions largely without her input. I think at one point, I even told her, "I'm making the decisions for us tonight, and I'm deciding that your coming home with me." It was just 100% straight confidence, and it was remarkably easy.

I got shut down 4 or 5 times that night, but I just kept on pushing through. At the beginning of the night, I held her hand. She said "What are you doing?" "I'm holding your hand because I want to." Then she laughed, we held hands for a few minutes on our way to the next bar. She may have tried to pull away at first, but I just held it tighter.

The goal here was not to get her to hold my hand, but to get her thinking about me sexually that night. I was following the basic structure of the escalation ladder throughout the night.

We talked about random topics; some stuff about relationships, some about science, etc...

I opened a girl at the bar while she went to the bathroom. This girl was cute, and it really worked to my advantage. I think I literally just said "Hi" and this girl just kept talking to me. I'm continually amazed at how well women pick-up on your inner state of mind.

C came back while we were talking; I let C wait for me to finish talking to the other girl.

We went to another bar, she tried to pull the same thing on me. I left her with some guy that was talking to her and ventured around. I ran into her about 10 minutes later and she was still talking to the guy. From her body language, I could tell she wasn't into the guy.

C: "Hey I was wondering where you were, I was just about to come find you."
Me to C: "Let's go to ABC Bar."
C: "Ok."
Guy she was talking to: "ABC Bar is dead."
Me to C: "Let's go to ABC Bar."
C: "Ok."

And then we left.

At ABC Bar, while we were talking I made a quick attempt at kissing her. She laughed, said "No!" in a flattered tone. I didn't let it phase me, because I'm getting what I want tonight. I tried another 4 or 5 times and got turned down every single time. I wasn't really expecting it to work, because we were just sitting at the bar and she's not really the type to do public displays of affection. I pressed on anyways, because it got her thinking about making out with me.

It was getting late, so we walked home. I locked her arm in mine and we walked. About half-way to my (our) place, I stopped, put my arms around her and pulled her into me and stared into her eyes. I'm not sure exactly what I said, but we ended up making out. Awesome.

When we got to my place, it was pretty much smooth sailing. Went to her room, clothes came off, and got down. We didn't have sex (she later thanked me thank you for not pressuring her into that), but we did everything else. She came all over her bed, so we moved to my bed and slept there for the night.

Lessons learned:
- When you're 100% confident, it doesn't matter what you do. Make decisions, and the rest of the world follows you.
- Don't ask the girl what she wants, just do it. If she has objections, she'll tell you.
Interesting point on this: Most people do not make decisions if they don't have to, especially women. When you get your driver's license, you have the option to check a box to become an organ donor. They've talked about changing this so that the default is opt-out, where you'd check a box to NOT become an organ donor. Germany's opt-in organ-donor system has approximately 12% participation; Austria's opt-out organ-donor system has 99.98% participation. The take-home point is that you should make decisions for others and allow them to opt-out of your plans, but don't offer it as a choice. Just assume she's going to be OK with your decisions, and trust that she'll voice her objections if she has any.
-This wasn't easy. It's taken me almost a year to get to this point, and I still consider myself a noob. Don't get discouraged by your own failures, learn from them and keep pushing forward. Anyone that says this stuff is easy is either 1) Naturally talented at it at it (highly unlikely); or 2) just saying that to put you down because they themselves are insecure (very likely) or are just an asshole. It's easy once you figure it out, but its hard work getting to that point. Keep pushing through, don't give up on yourself!

So that's the success part of my story. Onto day 2...

The next day, everything was cool. I was playing at a charity golf tournament all day. When I got back, I invited her to the bar with my friend and I for a little day-drinking, but she had a graduation party to attend.

When she got home later that night, my other roommate and I were playing video games. I could tell she was super-nervous because she was making a bunch of stupid comments (and she's normally an exceptionally intelligent woman). I chuckled to myself because in my head I was thinking "wow this is kind of a turn off I hope she's not going to remain this dumb" but I know she was really just nervous because she liked me so much, so I cut her some slack.

My roommate went to bed, then I got up and went to the bathroom. When I came back, I sat down next to her and made out with her. We sat and watched an episode of Newsroom. After the show, I asked her if she wanted to sleep over, and she said that we were moving too fast. I said "It's cool" and went to bed.

In retrospect, what had happened on day two is that I killed the sexual tension. If I started making out with her, I should have escalated all the way and brought her to the bedroom. I probably should have had her come over to me instead of going to her (though I'm not sure this matters). By making out with her then just staying there and watching TV, I think I killed the sexual tension.

Anyhow, I think what I need to do now is go back to treating her like my friend, play hard to get and be unavailable, and just let her come to me. I continue to tease her like she's my sister. Basically, I never tell her where I'm going, and I never give her any indication as to what I'm thinking, so I keep her on her toes and make her work to figure me out.

My questions are: Is this what I need to do, and do I give her any IOIs during the process?; and 2) if she says "Let's just be friends," how do I respond? I don't think #2 will happen unless I become needy (I won't), but I just want to be prepared for that in case it rears its head.

You answered your own question in the very next sentence here.

That was just a little light LMR. You should have just agreed with her, pulled AWAY a little, then back to business. Rinse/repeat.
Tell her you already have enough friends, thanks anyway!

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They call me the cat whisperer, cause I know exactly what the pussy needs.

Enjoyed the update mate, in a relatively similar situation myself and a similar timescale, keep up the good work!

You're welcome. I'll continue to update this thread as things progress. I haven't hooked up with her again yet, but I'm sure I will. I've been busy and have been going out on my own in the meantime.

I've been thinking about this situation and her "rejecting" me, which is not a real rejection, but I think its essentially the same thing as a shit test. Basically, I need to own it, and then reframe it so it benefits me.

"I think we're moving too fast."

My response should be "I agree", and just keep pushing forward.

"I'm not 100% into you, and I just don't want to hurt you."

Response: "I feel the same way about you. But I think I like you enough to see where it goes," Then kiss her

A good page on shit-tests I found here: http://www.thefirstseduction.com/inner- ... rls-tests/

I do have a question, because this has happened to me on more than one occasion and I'd like to know how to handle it:

I will try to kiss a girl (or something like that), and she'll turn her head into my chest and hug me and say "Noooo", but do it in a cute like "Nooooo, I can't do it but I want to" kind of tone, then back off my chest after a second, look up into my eyes and stare at me.

What's a good response to say here? I've never really figured that out, but I'm pretty sure I could just say anything (although I'd still like a suggestion). And I'm pretty sure this is just another shit test/some of their last minute resistance stuff.

Why does everyone always think they need to "SAY' something?

After that reaction, point at your cheek, she will know exactly what you mean (a harmless kiss on the cheek) as she goes to kiss your cheek, turn your head, and *magic* you are lip to lip.

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They call me the cat whisperer, cause I know exactly what the pussy needs.

Perfect. I know I don't need to SAY something, my question should have been "What do I do next in this situation?"

Thank you!