One area I know is quite weak of mine is my value. I don't have value issues with girls, I can always DHV to them so that's never been an issue.

It's more of an issue with my guy friends. There's 2 guy friends I have who I know like to think they're above me.

You know in PUA, how we say don't always directly answer a girls question, ignore her in certain situations etc well we all know the affect it has. Well there's a couple of guys, who are familiar with The Game, that do this to me. They do it when we're out for a night and try to look superior to me in front of people.

I can see exactly what they're trying to do, they already see me as 'below' them and want to keep it that way. They give me some banter, I do have come backs which would hit them back a lot harder. And this normally doesn't bother me and I'll always hit someone back harder, but because these 2 guys because they see me as of lower status than them, I see them as higher. And I get needy to them, and won't hit them back with the banter.

It's only these 2 guys mainly, happens every now and then with other guys. As I said, it doesn't affect my game but when we're out together and us 3 start talking to girls I'm sure it shows, not good.

Not sure how I got to this situation, maybe because they are a lot older than me. Or maybe because they see me as an easy target as I never have been quick with come backs when having lad banter. An example would be, they'd poke fun of my weight, being underweight, and it would take me a good few minutes to think of a come back and that obviously doesn't count, so it gives them the upper hand. Or they'd embarrass me in public somehow.

Help on how to break out of this and give myself more value for my guy friends?

Of course there's the argument of not being friends with people who don't bring value to your life, and yeah I don't spend much time with them at all because of this. But regardless, I still want to fix the root of the problem this will just keep happening.

Get new friends. Those are not good wings.

Like I said, I rarely see those people for that very reason.

But they clearly saw something in me which led to that situation, I want to figure out what it was and how to stop that.

Value = perceived benefit / price

You can try to demonstrate your value all you'd like by advertising the benefit of your presence, friendship, even proximity but if they do not understand your value proposition, it's over.

Let's switch this around and try out an exercise. You go to the store and see a new laptop and check out its features. How much BENEFIT does that computer give you in $ figures? Want to know how much? Well let's say the laptop was priced $10,000, would you buy it? No, but if it's was $100, you'd buy it right away. So your personal benefit in $ figure would be somewhere between 100 and 10k. The people who sell computers know YOUR PERSONAL perceived benefit $ figure better than you do. This is why you probably own a laptop. Are you following me?

As a presenter of yourself, the goal is to demonstrate a HIGH PERCEIVED BENEFIT for being with you, being your friend, partying with you, working with you, and yes, in the case of women, even benefits of fucking you. And the price? Well, it's got to be less than the cost of the perceived benefit doesn't it?

You already know people who do ^this well without even knowing how/why this is happening. Well, I am telling you how/why and this is it. People are not inherently great or inherently evil. They simply don't give a rats ass about anything that does no affect them one way or another. Offer them a decent value proposition and they'll surround you like a bunch of union guys surround a bond fire on a January strike. Offer them a poor value proposition (less than 1.00) and they'll keep you around enough to meet their needs. Offer them a negative value proposition and they will look to hurt you.

If you can digest ^this, we can move on to strategy.

Ok I get it. So basically, I've got to demonstrate that I give a lot to people. And what I appear to give to others, must 'cost' me less than what I'm giving. So in words of money, I'm profiting.

What about this strategy?

What do you have to offer?

Nothing more and nothing less than what those 2 guys I described in my first post can offer.

So nothing more than the average person, my few mates say I'm the best person to go clubbing with as we always end up with some good story to tell after. That's easy for me, as I'm just myself.

I'm just the average person in terms of what I offer. Maybe that's my folley.

Sound like your friends are narcissists .

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I think most "average people" have no idea what they can offer. Have you ever been to an interview where the firm/company asks you what you can bring to the firm? The common replies are generic answers such as "I am dedicated and hard working and have loved x since I was a young age" or an example of a month where they sold a certain amount of goods without really knowing how or why they managed to be successful that month. Most people do not actually know what they can really offer the company.

If 5 people at interview all have a similar level of skill, they will all probably be able to add value to the company over time. However, four of those people do not have a self awareness of the skills they possess, or they know they possess the skill to an extent, but don't know how it is going to interact in the company. They will add limited value to the company and will need some training/experience from other people already at the company to get the best out of them. The fifth person though is aware of his skill, he knows exactly how it helps him do his job, he knows exactly how it is going to help him help the company. He doesn't need any significant training or experience, he can fit straight in and get instant results because he knows what he's good at and how it interacts with the firm. He is obviously going to add far more instant and long term value to the company. But the thing is, all five people had the same skills. They were all equally capable. They were all, as you term it, "average". Yet only one of them was self aware enough to know the full extent of that average skill and how it could best benefit himself and the company.

The same goes for social interactions. Average people unconsciously offer their close friends something. Otherwise none of them would have friends - why would people interact with you at all if you sat in a corner and never said a word to anyone? But they don't consciously know what it is they offer. So when they meet new people, they dry up. If you can become aware of what it is you offer your friends - even if it is nothing out of the ordinary - then you can consciously make sure you are offering that same thing to new people. Even if it's something like a dry wit, if you become more self aware of that wit, then you will actively use it with strangers and won't dry up. Then you can get to Kasabi's post about the value and benefit of your skill. Offer them that skill (a witty sense of humour, an easy going approach to life, whatever) for a "price" that seems like a bargain and they'll swarm all over you.


Kasabi - I haven't seen you post much recently. Please do - always a good read!

Nothing = nothing. And are you curious at all as to why your friends are also "nothing"?
These are your words. "Nothing" and "Average". Sound exciting to you? Are you satisfied with an average computer? Average service? Average experience? It seems you are satisfied with offering average and receiving average. That's fine. . . but the problem is, even you will toss 'average' out the window if you are offered something excellent. If a guy offers to trade in your average computer for a top of the line at no cost, you'd do it in a heart beat. Your 'friends' treat you like an average monkey because that is what you are. Make no mistake; this is the way women perceive you too. They're just too nice to disrespect you the way your male friends do.

7000 brought up the point of awareness and demonstration of "value adds" but this comes much later. For now, start getting good at something. . . Anything. "You're a good time at a night club" to your guy friend? Really? This is your value add to the World? You are having trouble demonstrating value because you have no value. If you had value, you really wouldn't need to seek it out, others would already swarm you and you'd know why.

. . . And if you can't get really good at something, don't worry. Average and Nothing makes up the majority of the World. This is how most live their lives.

Not sure what you mean by this?

I hear what you're saying, and not disagreeing with you. Although you might be getting the wrong end of the stick a little. I don't have problems socially or with people disrespecting me, ever. Just with these 2 certain guys. I'm mainly posting to here to find out what those reasons were or how I can stop it happening again.

I am definitely more than "average". Very good name for myself in my career etc and I am fully aware of what I bring to the table. Socially, I'm not aware of what it is I bring to the table. I couldn't even tell you what other people bring to the table, it's a hard question.

I have a good value, good friends, well liked etc.

My goal in this thread was to somehow figure out what is was that set the 2 blokes into seeing me of lower value to them. Probably picked a misleading name for thread title.

It's a fun exercise to ask a few 'why's every once in a while. . .

Ever wonder why fraternity houses all over America pick the pledges they do? They talk about character, academic/athletic ability, respect, etc . . . but what does all of this mean? Why pick a guy with character? Why pick a guy with a 4.0 gpa? Why the star quarterback? Because he's popular, because he has a future, because he is respected. . . OK, so now ask why again. . . why these things? Keep on asking why and do you know where we end?

Frats (Group of men) pick the pledges they do because it gives the current members of a fraternity higher chances of fucking better looking girls. Nobody gives a shit that a pledge washes dishes well or is friendly with the crew or is likable and sociable. Hey, take a absolute loser of a guy who has 20 chicks hanging on him at every party and he's willing to share the cup of vaginal juice and every frat in every college will go out of their way to recruit him.

This is a pick up forum so most are concerned with the actual act of PU. "What should I say?" "What should I do?" "How should I behave?". . . but all these things amount to strategies to PRESENT YOURSELF. If there's nothing there, no amount of marketing will change it. This is why ONS's or in a game of pick up b-ball, anybody will befriend anybody. . . but in frat houses, job market, marriages, long term relationships, people look for substance. This is why the popular frats pick popular kids. This is why the corps pick people with ability.

Take the biggest stereotypical dorks. . . concert violinists, software developers, computer engineers, and sure, low value morons might talk them down behind their backs or online but in real life, anybody with high level of talent in ANYTHING gains respect, especially from other high valued individuals. Why? Perceived benefits. . . why? . . . This is what you have to ask yourself. . . .

I gave you a freebie though. . . . The ability to bring on the ladies and hook up your fellow mates is the most prized ability and highest perceived value. Yeah, it sounds like pimping but money cannot buy this. . . only a friendship with you can. Go hang out in playgrounds and corporate watering holes with this in mind and you'll realize that the reality of this dynamic exists in men of all ages. All of this works naturally if you are really fucking good at something.

You're looking at this from a traditional pick up arts point of view through the lenses of DHVs and being an alpha male which has the highest value. Since you're looking at it this way, then it becomes a problem which is causing you this stress.

But if you want to be happier, let's look at this from what happens naturally in human societies. As the cliche goes, you can look at a glass of water either as half full or half empty. One point of view can make you sad while the opposite can make you happy depending on how you frame what you see.

Some marketing genius read up on alpha male gorillas or wolves and decided to package the concept as a book product. Hence, the alpha male is now a profitable concept that sells bootcamps, books, DVDs and what have you.

In gorilla societies and most primate species except humans, there can only be one alpha male; the rest will be beta males and the position doesn't last for very long. An alpha male monkey can only sustain his position for 6 months more or less.

Human societies are different, more complex, and multidimensional compared to gorilla societies. Each man or woman has a specific role to play. In some roles, a guy can play the alpha male role while in others, he has to play the beta male role. That's just fine because that's how human societies work through cooperation and collaboration.

When a police officer stops your car and shouts, "Put both of your hands on the steering wheel where I can see them," it would do you good to play the beta male role, apologize profusely to the police officer and keep your head low to show that he is the alpha male in this situation and that you are the beta male. Often times, the policeman will be happy that you're treating him right as the alpha male and instead of giving you a $300 ticket, he'll usually end up just giving you a brief lecture on traffic rules and then pat you on the back and say, "Take care. Have a good day, sir."

Now, when you go to church, even when you disagree with the priest's or pastor's sermon, it will do you good to raise your hands to the roof and just say, "Amen. Praise the Lord!" than go into an aggressive, passionate debate on why you disagree with the priest's sermon. Inside the church, the pastor is the alpha male while all of the guy church goers are the beta males. This way, you keep the priest happy and all of the women religious flock secure and comfortable in your presence as you rub your dick at the ass of a well dressed religious babe that you have been sarging for quite some time. You're happy and everybody's happy.

If you have a career, the normal set up is about the same. Your boss will be the alpha male in your company but when it's time to take out a bank loan for the payroll or convince investors to put in their money for expanding the business, your boss will betatize himself with the bank manager to successfully secure the payroll loan or kowtow like a cheap whore to the investors to leverage other people's money.

You get the point.

Now, let's focus on a smaller cell of the social circle.

In your neighborhood, you'll notice that you will have several sets of friends. In some sets, you will play the alpha male role while in other sets, you're just comfortable to be in the beta male role. That's just fine and perfectly normal.

I have a set of guy friends where we have a default alpha male. He talks the loudest, which is just fine. He betatizes us in front of some people sometimes and that's just okay. We boost up his ego and listen to his DHVs but when he gets drunk, he cries like a baby. But since he's the boss when we hangout and he feels really good around us, he always ends up footing the big bill and drives each and everyone of us home. He's happy and we're happy. Sometimes, I can even ask a personal loan from him and he refuses to accept my payment every time. When some of the guys are looking for a job, he also gives the best recommendations.

Now, it doesn't mean that since he's the alpha male and the guy with the highest DHV in our set of friends, he always keeps his women happy. Nah. A neighborhood bum was banging his wife since our friend was too busy trying to sustain his alpha male role in his career and with many of his friends.

But hey, the neighborhood bum surely did get what he deserved. Our friend is the alpha male, right? He has so many friends who are more than happy to keep the score even. But still, our friend's wife continued to cheat on him. Fuck. That's just the way it is, I guess.

My point?

Look at DHV and being alpha from a multi-dimensional human society perspective instead of looking at it from a gorilla society perspective that the most vocal PUAs around here package as the truth. The stereotypical gorilla alpha male that I see on YouTube videos don't look that happy at all. In fact, they look so angry most of the time.



P.S.

I forgot to tell you that my alpha male example is a college buddy in our fraternity. You're getting the perspective of someone who is an insider.

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'


Essentially, what he is saying.... Know your rank. And if you don't like your rank, work hard to be better than the guy above you. Your true colors eventually show through.

Nah. What I am saying is that we are playing different roles in our social interactions. It's okay to be beta some of the time but not most of the time. Being alpha 100% of the time can be very, very stressful.

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