[quote="40 year old virgins broth"]
well we are hardwired to hunt animals, but somwehre along the line somebody decided it was inhumane to kill animals, so many stopped.

but back in caveman times any animal that came by was lunch.

it's nature verses nuture.

I dont believe all cases of AA result from bad experiences, there isnt one human who wasnt scared to approach somewhere along the line.

Nobody who never feared dying

Nobody who never had stage fright, or got nervous.

Do all these things result from bad experiences or are they innate, normal[/quote]

Well, I am sorry but I don't see you bringing any valid evidence to the table that AA would be hardwired. I came with valid evidence to you. My evidence is people that used to be scared to death to talk to women but they lost this fear after practicing. I told you that as a kid I didn't have this fear at all. This is real evidence. The point you come up with is no evidence. If "fear of approaching women" would be hardwired by evolution you could do nothing about it. The fact that you can get AA means that you can also get rid of it.

People are hardwired to hunt ? First of all, what does hunting have to do with approaching people ? You are comparing tomatoes with potatoes. Secondly, do you have proof that hunting is hardwired ? Thirdly, what does "hunting is hardwired" even mean ?

Like you, I used to take Mystery's explanation as the truth. It is when I started to read about psychology and going infield that I realized Mystery is talking bullshit. For example, I have AA. When I see a girl in mini skirt and I look at her legs when she is walking in front of me, I feel nervouss because I care about other people seeing this and judging me for that. I experience the exact same nervouss feeling as when I want to speak to a woman. However, if I wear sunglasses I don't feel nervouss. I can look as long as I want. I don't feel nervouss because I know nobody will notice what I am doing so nobody can judge me. The beliefs inside ones head are the ones causing AA.

Im equally sorry, u havent presented other than u dont THINK we are hardwired a certain way.a shred

http://www.mensxp.com/dating/inner-game ... ction.html


We are hardwired to fear creativity
http://io9.com/5837333/our-brains-are-h ... creativity

So we are hardwired to reject science(as you appear to be)

http://daily.sightline.org/2011/02/01/a ... t-science/

we are hardwired to cheat:

http://morningquickie.com/2010/08/04/me ... accept-it/

Also read this

Anxiety is a very complex, yet very normal emotion just like anger, fear, sadness or happiness. It is hardwired into our brains as a means of survival. You have heard the saying “fight or flight” right? Well, this is it. Anxiety can develop out of an array of environmental and emotional triggers such stress, fear of failure, fear of rejection, or social anxiety. It can be brought on by public speaking, office presentations, job interviews, forced conversations with a complete stranger on your public commute, or just pure shyness. Anxiety can be unsettling and, at its worst, completely debilitating.

But we are not hardwired for approach anxiety?

Guess well agree to disagree

[quote]
Im equally sorry, u havent presented other than u dont THINK we are hardwired a certain way.a shred
[/quote]
No, you didn't understand my point. I don't mean we are not hardwired. I mean, I feel attraction for a hot woman ... this is hardwired. There is nothing I can do about that. Nobody thought me this. It is just a feeling that suddenly popped out and I have no control over that.

What I wanted to say is that fear of approaching women is not hard wired.


[quote="40 year old virgins broth"]
http://www.mensxp.com/dating/inner-game ... ction.html
We are hardwired to fear creativity
http://io9.com/5837333/our-brains-are-h ... creativity
So we are hardwired to reject science(as you appear to be)
http://daily.sightline.org/2011/02/01/a ... t-science/
we are hardwired to cheat:
http://morningquickie.com/2010/08/04/me ... accept-it/
[/quote]

First ... don't tell me I reject science. Just for the record, science is my life. I have a PhD in engineering.

Second ... as a scientist I want to make you aware that you can't just believe everything you read and take that as a science. The website www.mensxp.com/dating has no scientific value at all. And the other websites ... never heard of them. If you would be publishing in the scientific community yourself you would be more carefull about citing sites like that. You should only cite from sources that have a significant scientific impact factor. That is why publishing in Nature is hard. Articles in Nature are reviewed very thoroughly and only if your material is 100 % correct and really good, the article will be published. But because of the review process people know that these articles have a very high scientific value.

The only valid point in the articles is that people are hardwire to fear the new (what they don't know). If you put me in a room with some green Alien, I will shit my pants ... the reason is not that because of evolution I am hardwired to be scared of Aliens. How could that be ? My ancestors have never even met an alien so how can it be hardwired ? I am scared of the Alien because it is new to me. If I would be like the publishers of these articles, I could publish an article now about hard wired Alien anxiety. I hope you get my point. The rejection of science or creativity is not because people don't want to accept science. They don't want to accept NEW things. A scientist has no problem to accept correct science; but go tell a religious guy about science ... I tried ... they reject everything that goes against their belief even if the proof is completely obvious and clear.

If AA would be hard wired there is nothing you could do about it. Why ? Because that is the definition of hard wired. You disagree on this. Well, you are attracted to women, right ? I also assume that if you see a really hot woman you feel an uncontrollable desire for her. Do you think that there is a way for you to lose that feeling ? So I mean, some CBT or exposure method to desentesize you such that you will stop feeling attraction for woman ? I am 100 % sure that this is not possible (of course without taking medicine to change your hormonal functionality). It is not possible because it is hard wired. But the simple fact that people do get rid of AA proves that AA is not hard wired.

But OK, this is all I have to say about the subject. Feel free to reply and disagree again. I will read it but I will stop the discussion because we are deviating from the topic.[quote][/quote]

well thats fine. We arent getting anywhere as u say. I post a link, u give an opinion.

You're right we're going off topic

[quote="40 year old virgins broth"]well thats fine. We arent getting anywhere as u say. I post a link, u give an opinion.

You're right we're going off topic[/quote]

Ey dude, I am not posting opinions. It may seem as my opinion but what I say comes from cognitive behavorial psychology.

Well u wanted evidence or where the theories come from. Your Alien theory is probably correct, we wouldnt have feared Aliens, but because we haven't seen one before. I know nothing is proven, but what is? CBT works, but why it works is still debatable.

Anyway, we feared heights because in caves and mountains we probably lost alot of people falling. Put a 3 year old child today on the ledge of a building they will scream and cry in horror. They didnt learn that, that was there. This was their first tinme on the ledge, just as its somebodys first time skydying when they puke and chicken out.

But with your CBT reasoning,, u seem to say that because since we can resolve it one way, that it must have been caused by the same mechanism.

If one overeats, and gets fat, then they exercise but still overate, they will slim down, even though the cause was the overating. It wasnt lack of exercise, because if they ate normally they would have been slim.

If somebody takes a pain killer for arthritis, it will relieve the pain, but the cause of arthritis wasnt pain, it was the immunesystem.

So if cbt helps peoples fears, it doesnt mean that the fears couldnt come from a different source.

respectfully.

Well, I looked a bit deeper into the origins of social fear and at this moment science doesn't really knows if it is inherited or not. I don't post any links because it is obvious to find this.

I don't know if it can be inherited or not. Science apparently can still not proof this. So Mystery's claim is just his opinion about the matter. He can't proof that. He might be correct; he might be wrong.

But I do know that there are at least people walking around with social phobia because of life experiences. So not all people with social fobia were born with it. However, if you do believe all people were born with it, I challenge you to answer the following question:

Why did I have no fear at all to talk to women until I reached the age of 15 ?

Why did I have no fear at all to talk to women until I reached the age of 15?

Probably because before that time, u werent sexually attracted to them. Then u were, and then u werent walking up to any ole person, u were walking up to somebody u might wanna have sex with.

And no doubt, there are plenty of fears that are learned. My dog used to walk with me every night, until one night she encountered an animal that even i didnt know quite what it was, and she was shaking like a leaf.

to this day she wont walk towards the area where that animal was, i tried coaxing her with treats but she wont budge when we go there.

So if it can happen to dogs, it can happen to people

[quote="40 year old virgins broth"]
Probably because before that time, u werent sexually attracted to them. Then u were, and then u werent walking up to any ole person, u were walking up to somebody u might wanna have sex with.
[/quote]

So doesn't it make any sense than that because of attraction, inside my head I have given them special value which causes my nervousness ? So couldn't my problem be rather one of beliefs rather other than a hard wiring problem ? Couldn't my problem be a result of following beliefs ? :

- If they reject me, I am worth nothing.
- I don't know what to say.
- They will probably not like me so why would I even approach.
- They are going to react badly and everyone will start laughing with me.

And if so, are these beliefs hard wired ? Maybe ... maybe not. Apparently science doesn't even know the answer to this question. But 1 thing is for sure ... during your life you can get beliefs inside your head that can cause you irrational anxiety. So I prefer to believe this over the explanation of Mystery, because if Mystery is right, I am doomed. You can't eliminated things that are hardwired, unless I take some severe drugs.

- If they reject me, I am worth nothing. (yes but why would u think that way?
what evolutionary force gave u that feeling?)

- I don't know what to say. (pressure u will fuck it up and not be able to hold your head up amongst the virile cavemen)

- They will probably not like me so why would I even approach. (might get beat up or ridiculued by the clan)
- They are going to react badly and everyone will start laughing with me. (right, but why would u think that if it hadnt happened before?)

All I know is men get themselves in all kinds of trouble, trouble that aint even worth it, trouble that they cant believe that they even allowed themselves to get in, and risk everything, to make evolution happy.

But im sure there are tons of cases of a guy who wasnt terrified of women, until one day they laughed at him and were harassing him every day at school, who got totally terrified of women ever since.

This is what I found in wikipedia (which is more or less overlapping with other articles I found concerning social anxiety).

CausesThe exact causes of social anxiety are still contested. Ongoing research on the genetic roots of physical and mental health suggests that the tendency toward feelings of anxiety, in social situations in particular, has a moderate probability of inheritance. In other words, if one parent has a mental health disorder such as social phobia, the child has a slightly higher chance of having an anxiety disorder.

Another possible cause of social anxiety is the nervous system. Medications that are prescribed to treat social anxiety affect the levels of neurotransmitters, chemical messengers that are responsible for transmitting signals in the brain. However, researchers are still unsure if the differences in these chemicals cause social anxiety. Several studies have found that certain areas of the brain, such as a small, almond-shaped area called the amygdala, can be more active in individuals with social phobia.[15]

Another possible cause of social anxiety is life experiences. Negative experiences in life, and the way one handles and reacts to them, can also lead to the development of social anxiety. If one is consistently put in situations that make him or her feel inferior or fear the judgment of other people, he or she can begin to develop negative beliefs about himself or herself and the world that can cause social anxiety. If negative experiences continue, one may also begin to develop confirmation bias and tend to pay attention only to the actions and events that will reinforce negative beliefs, creating a snowball effect. For example, a public speaker who is worried about his or her presentation being boring may selectively focus on the few people in an audience who appear bored while completely disregarding the majority of others who are watching with great interest. As the confirmation bias strengthens pejorative beliefs, one tends to start exhibiting socially anxious behaviors such as anxious sensations, like blushing, or anxious thoughts. After a while, these beliefs lead one to make negative assumptions and read too much into neutral situations. If one sees another person glance at him or her as he or she walks by, one may automatically assume that such is on account of strange appearance or an odd manner of walking without considering other possibilities such as that the person's outfit attracts attention or that the person looking prefers to make eye contact with anyone he or she passes.

If one believes that most social situations are going to be uncomfortable, he or she is naturally going to try to avoid them. Avoidance allows one to escape feelings of anxiety temporarily by avoiding an uncomfortable situation, but doing so may strengthen beliefs that one cannot handle social situations normally. This causes one to miss the chance to find out that one may be completely wrong about automatic negative assumptions. If one enjoys singing but fears the judgment of others, he or she may never be able to discover the quality of his or her voice due to constant avoidance and, as a result, often gets ignored or neglected by others due to their social awkwardness as a result of not being able to emotionally carry themselves normally in social situations.[16]

Avoiding more and more situations for fear of others' judgments will strengthen negative beliefs and prevent one from going into situations where he or she might actually enjoy himself or herself. As this pattern starts to interfere with overall functioning, the warning signs of social anxiety can become more apparent.

[edit] SPAM is not very difficult to treat social anxiety and the SPAM needed varies case to case. It is claimed that the most effective SPAM available is cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT), improving symptoms in up to 75 percent of people with social anxiety disorder according to the Mayo Clinic website. The goal of CBT is to guide the patient's thoughts in a more rational direction when faced with anxiety; it helps the person to stop avoiding situations that once caused anxiety, it teaches people to react differently to the situations that trigger their anxiety. Cognitive-behavior therapy may include systematic desensitization or controlled exposure to the feared situation. With systematic desensitization, the person imagines the anxious social situation and works through their fears in a safe and controlled environment. This desensitization gradually exposes the person to the situation but with the support of the therapist, this allows them to become better skilled at coping with these anxious situations and to develop the confidence to face them alone. CBT may also include role-playing to practice social skills and gain the comfort and confidence in order to relate to others. Relaxation or stress management techniques may be included in a SPAM plan.[3]

For some patients medication might be used along with CBT. There are several different types of medications used to treat social anxiety disorder, such as antidepressants like Paxil or tranquilizers such as Xanax, Librium, Valium, and Ativan. Beta-blockers, which are often used to treat heart conditions, may be used to mitigate some of the physical symptoms of social anxiety, such as reducing heart rate or blood pressure.[3]

Another more time-consuming approach is psychoanalytic therapy. This can be helpful in identifying the sources of anxiety in childhood, and may also be combined with medication.

In addition to seeking medical help, there are some things that people suffering from social anxiety can do on their own to handle situations likely to trigger social anxiety. Making a deliberate effort to return eye contact when walking past someone or to give someone a compliment will help to build coping skills in social situations even though it may initially be difficult or painful. Changing one's diet may also be of benefit; drinking less caffeine may help reduce some of the symptoms, because caffeine is a stimulant which increases the heart rate.[citation needed]