This post is not meant to offend anyone (though I'm sure some people will probably find something in it to bitch about) nonetheless I feel its worth discussion.

Why do so many people think Mystery is such a great guy. He's not the greatest PUA ever, period. The only accomplishment he has made is one that every man should seek in his own life. He went from being unable to be socially fluid to the exact opposite. However, people do this all the time, without the help of MM. Myself for one, when I entered high school over 8 years ago, I was a quiet, shy, skateboarder who would get hard at the sight of a girls thong sticking out of her shorts. Less than 2 years later, I had control of my own life, and I have no-one to thank but myself and my friends who stood by me through the rough patches of my life.

Even those who have read "The Game" or "MM" or any other seduction book for that matter don't owe their respect to these self-proclaimed guru's. The reality of the matter is that while they wrote books on seduction, none of them have invented anything. Just formalized it into a method, which in my opinion is something that anyone can do. None of these men have anything that all other men don't have, other than practice. I'm just getting sick of how the seduction community seems to worship these men who have honestly, done nothing. This is not meant to be negative or demeaning towards any body who holds great respect to these men, but more of a question of why you continue to talk about them and their methods instead of following your own path towards self-improvement.

(One of the many reasons I ask is that I see that you guys are now teaching MM here, and I'm confused as to why you all wouldn't want to teach your own original ideas instead of just rehashing on something that has been more than adequately covered and used)

Peace. Love. Prosperity.
Methuselah.

_________________
Amor est Vitae Essentia

When you get control over your own life then there really isn't anybody to thank except yourself. Perhaps you have read some books on PU and/or self-improvement but in the end you are the one who made the effort to change. You are the one who did the hard work. Every man can do this hard work and in this way Mystery isn't better than any other man.

However he has done a lot. He has formalized a method that is understandable and that have helped a lot of guys to help them self. It is true that everybody can formalize a method but since he did it first there will be a lot of time to spare for those who follow. I think he deserves some respect.

In the meantime he shouldn't be worshiped. When people worship folks like Mystery it is projection. Projection is a psychological term that means that you transfer your own good qualities onto others who might have more of the same good qualities. This isn't good because projection often leads to failing in realizing the potential of oneself.

_________________
- - > "It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees"

hollywoodinpa on The Transition to Natural Game:

the-transition-to-natural-game-vt15880.html

You make a very good point Meth. They did not invent anything, instead they formalized human social and courtship behavior into a science which can be easily understood by men.

As I put into practice many of the concepts I've learned over these few weeks, I notice that most of them are intuitive and feels natural when used. For example, look a girl in the eye when she looks you in the eye. Look (and feel!) genuinely happy when she smiles, and mirror that smile. Touching on the arm to put emphasis on something, or to relate something in the conversation.

Seriously, a lot of these PUA-tricks are really just instincts we've somehow been taught to suppress our entire lives---kino feels good, eye contact feels good, leaning back with your chest out and arms out feels good, talking to strangers and finding out about them and their lives feels good.

Of course, there are times when it pays to be counterintuitive in your actions, such as brushing off a girl's kino and negging her playfully. (This does not apply to people with serious mental health issues, please stay current with your medication and if you must game, game within the boundaries of state and federal law.)

But generally, I think following your instincts, and just being a man helps tremendously in all social situations, not just with girls. Now, whenever I look down for more than a few seconds in a convo, I physically feel bad, as if I'm doing something completely against my nature. Which might have been why I avoided socializing in the past, because it is human nature to avoid feeling bad. But now, I associate talking to people and girls with feeling good, and every set I open reinforces that, even if everything doesn't go just right.

_________________
afc-challenge-to-the-masters-social-anx ... 10108.html

The reason people think that Mystery is so "great" is because he HAS put together a method, and in doing so has saved the rest of us a tremendous amount of time. Instead of us spending months or years trying to figure out what's going underneath the surface, we can shorten that time frame.

Some guys can go out and pick things up very quickly and may not need the help of some method. However, other guys genuinely, and DESPERATELY, need the help of some method to at least get them started on the right track. They need the help from someone who has broken the entire process down into practically every detail so that it's understandable.

For those guys that seem to worship him, that's overboard. But, for the rest of us that have a level head, we simply respect the man for what he's done. After all, he CAN walk into virtually any club and pick up several girls in that club. Sure, the rest of us can to, ONCE we figure out how. And THAT is where he has helped. He's broken down how to do that.

And, while Mystery may not be the greatest PUA ever, he's definitely far beyond any members of this forum. So what if he's in show business. Doesn't mean he's any less skilled or knowledgable.

I would also bet that any single member of this forum could learn something from him.

In the end, no, he didn't invent this, but, he did break it down to make it understandable for any guy that just doesn't get it.

And, I think, that's why he has earned the respect he's got, because it has been earned.

And, one day, probably soon, there will be another Mystery and Style team out there taking the PUA world by storm. And those guys will deserve the same respect that Mystery and Style have earned, because they will also have earned it.

Its the same reason that other people that write books are well respected in their fields, even if all they have done, is read a bunch of other people's research and books and compiled it. Compiling something into an easy to digest format isn't as simple as you make it sound, its a very complex procedure.

Mystery spent many years learning something and then compacted it into something that other people can learn within a very short period and master in as little as a year. Its an impressive feat.

I will grant you that he is somewhat over-idolized, but I won't claim that if I were to run into him, I wouldn't be a little star struck. The guy has an incredible amount of game, its impressive. Its the same way people idolize actors. Actors don't really do anything that a large number of people couldn't do with all the resources at their disposal. Yet, for some reason, when you see a big name actor, you always get that celebrity buzz, even if you think its stupid, you usually still get it if you're close enough to touch them.

_________________
"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

'Done nothing'? Absolute rubbish!

If it wasn’t for the few creatively-minded individuals who decided to share and take the initial leap to commercialize their ideas, the seduction community would still be in the stone-age. It’s so easy, in hindsight, to be critical!

Indeed, you should be thankful to those early few, because otherwise you wouldn’t be posting here with the ulterior motive of promoting your forum! Perhaps your ego got the best of you?

Yes, we need to acknowledge and respect - but certainly not worship - the work of the founding fathers, and, hopefully, build on it.

Sidenote: I’m a Mystery ‘worshipper’! As such, do not subjectively criticise Eric on this forum - take it elsewhere!

Mystery has saved us time and helped men all over build a new lifestyle and be more confident in themselves! Mystery, Style, Tyler D, David DeAngelo, Ross Jeffries are all just men and don't need to be worshiped. However, as a fellow PUA I respect them. I view them like I view a good actor I like. I don't worship them but I admire them for their talents. In this case their talent is "reverse engineering" the process that attracts women.

Worship, No - Respect, Without a Doubt

__________________________________________________________
You haven't really lived until you have felt the smoothness!

J SMOOTH

I think we could equate this to Magellan, or Christopher Columbus and discovering new land and changing how we looked at the world. Sure, its easy now to say, "Fuck Columbus, all he did was hop in a ship and sail across the sea! I could do THAT!" The thing that you'd be forgetting is, no one had ever done it before. No one had ever made those maps, no one knew there WAS land over there, so they didn't know it was going to work out (lets pretend for a second it wasn't a fluke and he wasn't actually trying to hit India). To be the first person to do something is always a gamble, there's always a lot of hardship trying to pave the path, people die of scurvy, or people end up turning your own material on you and creating a new style specifically to crush yours, as was the case with "Style-Mogging".

Mystery and the other Gurus where the pioneers that fought those hard battles so that we didn't have to. I know that if they hadn't done what they did, none of this would exist and I sure as hell wouldn't be here, as I was brought into the community through The Game. Furthermore, if they hadn't made running workshops into a feasable thing, then I wouldn't be planning to run workshops myself, because that would be trailblazing and that's work that I'm not willing to do while going to school.

_________________
"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

For me, I think Mystery is great cuz he formalised all these pick up shit. Well... I dont think everyone is like you who get stuff from the beginning. For the past 20 years of my life (thats like from when i was born till now) i grew up, not understanding the social dynamics of relationships (not only between men and women, but also between guy friends). So ive lived trying to figure these shit out. Well, the very first book i read that brought me into the seduction community was not TMM or TG, but David D's Double your dating ebook, and well... I was stunned. I think thats the same for most other unnaturals who like me tried to find out about all those stuff all their lives. Also, I respect mystery and other pick up gurus for coming up with new techniques, approaches and theories which all of us can learn through a bit of money (and a bit of time and practise). I think the pick up gurus (mystery, style and david d) saved me a lot of my time, and extended a bit of my life span.

No offense taken. After all, this is a thread about Mystery, not one about Starbuck.
The difference? Mystery devoted his time by putting it all down in plain language, and reached millions of otherwise frustrated guys.

So why the envy directed towards Mystery, and his method? It comes off as insecurity, DLV or something. Hey aren't you 21 years old?

You think there's something to that? Maybe you ought to join the Marines or something. Instead of just chasing young skirts and criticizing others.
I don't see anyone worshiping anybody here. Sure their maybe a few into this sort of stuff, but I don't see it on a regular basis.

If nothing else Mystery deserves the respect you would afford any other successful human being.

I don't constantly talk about them and their methods. But alas they are a fundamental resource in the pick up game. And his show on VH1 did as much to put this community on the map as anything.


I don't teach the MM. I teach a combination of different styles, including some you've obviously never head of.. That are only acquired from years and years invested in the adult school of hard knocks.

The magic of MM is it's description. It's teachable. Venusian arts is textbook like. But like any subject it's easier to describe to somebody else along with the context that's often missing from the less experienced. Experience which is often required to understand other more subtle and less defined styles.

Now someone could of course acquire the book, then go out sarging, then come back and read the book, etc.. and do this a dozen or so times. Or they can come here get with a mentor/instructor, etc.. who has studied these principles in depth, and used such methods in the real world, then read the book once or twice and realize a similar benefit. Or of course they could attend a MM bootcamp and do the same thing, if they like parting with a lot of their money.

It's nice to have options, don't you think?

BTW, welcome to the forum dude.

_________________
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4ufa-q7DcWM

In some ways, I'm with Meth. I see a lot of Hero Worship (not directed entirely at Eric, either; Neil Strauss and Wayne Elise have their followers) on all of the forums talking about this-or-that mPUA, what this mPUA did in this event, and how that mPUA would handle that situation. I think it's entirely silly. They have achieved the ranks of minor (cult?) celebrities, and for teachers, that seems somehow _off_ to me. There's something inherently creepy about it. I guess it just reminds me of the way thirteen year old girls follow their favorite Pop Tart in the tabloids...

I have to disagree about Eric not having invented anything, though. He was the first man to have in-field workshops, and I think that, more than his Method, revolutionized the way pick-up is learned, and the way pick-up is taught. Perhaps he didn't invent the individual components that went into the workshop process (I've seen similar things done in sales training), but his specific use of those components was tremendously influential in the way the community developed.

And he has become a rather stunning example of _success_. Mystery lives like a rock star. He's got a method that works for him 80% of the time, he has money coming in from all corners (the show, DVD sales when those hit, book sales, workshops, seminars, and everything else he's been up to), and he seems healthy (he could stand to gain a lot of pounds).

I'd love to have that level of success. I'd also love to have Donald Trump's level of success. So I'll learn what I can from both (and whatever other role-models I find both in and out of the community), and model my habits after the behaviors of successful men. And when I'm done, I'll be more than willing to say "I can thank myself for this," with a nod to those that were successful before me.

_________________
Repent now and save 50% on your next divine judgment.
-Monkey's Little Brother, Spud

The problem is, the hero worship doesn't just apply to PUA gurus. It applies to literally every field of endeavor where someone has achieved major success.

One thing I do agree with Meth on is his mention of people teaching MM as their own. I don't see it from many in this particular thread, but I do see those here who hand out advice all the time directly from the MM book without any kind of detail. Keyboard jockies so exsist here. Someone will put in a lot of time asking a question and telling their situation just to have someone come on and say "You need to reframe". Those aren't the answers that are going to help people.

Well, the MM is a core product to the PU community right now. So I anticipate it will continue to be referenced.

I'm not so sure this is hero worship as it is just a method that has been proven to work and is easily described to others.

To me this seems so;

"Six of one, half dozen of the other".

I mean, like I said above I use a combo of styles, and lean more towards a BB or more direct style, but I sometimes reference the MM also. Because it works. But like I've said many times, Eric and others could make practically any style work the majority of the time.

We have a couple of guys teaching the straight MM right now. I'm not one of them.

So what was the problem again?

Oh yeah, keyboard jockies and hero worship. This is more like dealing with the public 101. I suspect it will continue.
Yep, like L.A. Tripp pointed out you get this kind of stuff everywhere from the choir.

Eric's playing it perfectly.

_________________
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4ufa-q7DcWM

Don't misunderstand me guys, the title of the post was why people respect him "SO much". There is absolutely nothing wrong with having respect for him, at all. I just think that the guy's ego has turned him into a complete dickbag, anyone who thinks that their DVD set is worth 2500 has their head up their ass in my opinion.

If you think for one second that the seduction community would be in the stone age if it weren't for Mystery, you're dead wrong. Forums and websites like Sosuave and many others have been around long before Mystery created and coined Venusian Arts. Would the community be as large? Obviously not, but its progression would have evolved just fine with or without him.

The man has done some serious work in the area of seduction, and for that I congratulate him and thank him. Many of his theories have helped internalize and bring light to flaws in my own personality. When I said "done nothing" it was certainly an over-exageration of my feelings, he has done plenty. But I stand by my assertion that none of this was invented by Mystery, just merely recognized and indoctrinated. (Obviously a serious task, but nonethless, certainly do-able )
Really man? Really? Is that what you think I do with my free-time? Worry about how many users my forum has? You couldn't be any more off target with that statement Brad. I post here because I enjoy having as many people involved in discussion as I can, and if I have to post on 5 different forums to maximize the number, so be it. Perhaps your ego has gotten the best of you if you seem so worried about my non-existant ulterior motives.
Starbuck, don't get me wrong on this. I do not envy Mystery, personally I'm not a fan of his, but that is nothing more than an opinion. I posted this not as some sort of attack towards him, but rather a place to discuss and explore why some people act this way, thats all.

As far as the Marines, I don't see myself there. And I don't think you know me well enough to acurately claim that I "just chase young skirts and criticize". Criticism is healthy, it stimulates thought which brings about change and evolution, which in my opinion is something that is much needed within the community.

_________________
Amor est Vitae Essentia