Crimsonian,
I honestly think we are playing the same song with different instruments. We're basically saying the same thing, but you're coming from the perspective of a guy who uses pick up as a catalyst to improve himself while I'm actually talking about becoming that guy with or without the catalyst.
First off, let me also break this into chunks so that I can organize my thoughts and respond to each of your comments. I totally agree that men and women are attracted to different things, because if we were all attracted to the same thing, that would suck because we would either all looked the same or we will be having a competition over that one thing that everyone wants. Fortunately, reality doesn't work that way.
Yes, there is a correlation to a man's social ability and his attractiveness to women. This social ability stems from his social awareness which he can learn and picked up from experience with or without pick up. If he actually goes out, observe his surroundings, and how everyone interacts he will know what is attractive and what isn't. This is why I encourage people, guys and girls, to just go out have fun and observe, because majority of the time people DON'T observe, because they're busy thinking about something else besides the moment. If they really watch and listen, they'll learn a lot of things. One of the problems I've seen from guys who does pick up stuff, including my friends, is that they are so critical about everything when interacting with a girl. They have to rehearsed lines, openers, and always try to have the best thing to say, which sends off this weird vibe. It doesn't seem natural to me, and if I can spot this, I'm pretty sure the ladies will spot it as well. Yeah, going through all of this process does get them girls, I'm not going to lie, but the process is to become confident and comfortable with yourself and to use pick up as a means of self improvement. I've observe and seen many guys neglect, overlook, or forget the self improvement part. I understand that having women coming into their life is what they want, but it is so much more than that. It's actually becoming attractive to yourself and to women as well. I feel like all of this lines, techniques this and technique that really distract them from their main purpose and also distract them from the moment. Psychologically they understand what everything is going on, by learning this every guy has a bit of exposure to psychology, sociology, and interpersonal relationships. This is good, I cannot disagree about that part, but I thought having a conversation is just listening and responding, listening and give back what you can give. It's not about microscoping the little details and use techniques to pull the strings to get the end result. It doesn't really feel natural anymore, and even if the guy gets what he wanted: "the girl", he hasn't really changed or become better, the only thing he's getting better at is how to memorize and habituate lines and techniques better and knowing how and when to act them out. This is not what becoming more attractive means. Maybe it is to others, but to me I know this is not what it means to be attractive to yourself and to the people around you. You might disagree with me and I completely understand and I'm okay with that. This is my opinion, and I know, to myself, that this is not what becoming attractive means. Becoming attractive does not mean knowing lines or how to touch and know psychological reasons behind every actions. A lot of men back then didn't even have pick up and they do quite fine. They just naturally have these qualities through experience, through their surroundings, and from what they picked up from others. To me, learning pick up is like instant gratification, you get results quickly. You might not get it right the first time, but there are results which you can measure how far or close you are at your goal. You then readjust yourself until you get it right. Results like you said are very concrete and visible, when you used pick up. But to me, with or without pickup you still get results. It may not be as organized, but there are still results and with these results you learn that this is no no and this is a yes. Let me quote you and elaborate on this point:
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"All these things are true, but some men still have no clue how to put these things to full use until they are aware of the principles of game. For example, how does a man lead a girl? Does he just decide one day that he's a leader, and when he's put in that situation, he'll know what to do? Or does he study up on kino escalation and alpha body language and then apply it to his interactions? To me, the latter would yield more results. "
You got a point, I agree but let me point out where most guys go wrong here. Yes, there is no way that a guy can just decide to be a leader when he has never lead in his life. No one can expect him to just know what to do when you put him in a situation and expect him to perform. In order to become a leader, this guy must know what a leader looks like, how he acts, how he behaves, and how he command an entire room, a crowd, the women, and the people around him. He needs to know what that looks like. He has to be able to visualize..... then he needs to align himself with that image to materialize. I know pick up is efficient because it produces results that the eyes can see, but sometimes in order to become truly confident in yourself, you really need to believe in yourself without a doubt that you can do this and you can achieve whatever it is that you can achieve before you even see the results. You just need to align yourself with your goals and desires constantly without losing faith in order to get there. This visualize then materialize thing, although it's vague, it is that one thing that made it possible to fly a man to the moon, flipping the switch which enabled a light bulb to turn on, and cell phones. The idea is to have the ideas and see how you can put these ideas into real life.
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Pick-up involves a lot of concepts and is dependent on a lot of experiences utilizing those concepts to become successful. I basically agree with you that it is just "training wheels," as eventually it will come naturally to men who put in the requisite effort over enough time, but 99% of guys still have a lot to learn and can become better at attracting the women they desire if they continue to apply the core principles of game.
I totally agree with you here, if you just take the core concepts and principles and apply it to yourself, you will become better, because seriously what pick up is, is just someone naming and labeling something that already happens naturally. From what I see, most guys focused only on the techniques and forget about the concepts. What to say, how do I say it, she says this, now what do I do? etc. etc. The reason why these things work because it shows that you are non-needy, it shows that you can take a joke, it shows that you're confident and that you're socially aware. It also shows that you're comfortable with your sexuality. etc. etc. Well the guy may appear to be that guy through what he says, but after he gets the girl, then what? He focused so much on the "how to's and what to do's" so much that he forgets why what he did worked in the first place. He got the girl, but now can he keep her? Getting her to me is the easy part, but keeping her is another game with different rules. If you were not that guy who said this and did that, when you have her, chances are you will lose her because that wasn't you from the very beginning. Yes, he can be cocky and funny, yes he can say this or do that, but eventually shit's going to get old and she will get bored and be able to predict him. He has now run out of tricks, now what? This is why I advocate actually improving yourself, gain all of these qualities on your own, by visualizing this, then taking actions which help you develop these qualities. Confidence like you said is very vague, and developing it is different for everyone. Find something that makes you confident. I don't care if it's dancing, political science, or whatever it is. Find that thing that makes you confident, and learn why it makes you confident. It's because you know your abilities in that area and you are confident in how well you will perform. Well, let's derive that and apply it to yourself and your dating life. Who are you? What does your situation with the ladies look like? What is so great about you, what is so attractive about you? What isn't attractive, what can you do to become more attractive and more confident in yourself which get the ladies to come to you? These are all personal questions one must ask oneself, and the answers vary depending on their personality. It is vague, yes, it doesn't provide a clear simple solution as pick up does, but coming up with the solution on your own is basically you putting the work out there to solve your own questions and to really improve yourself. If you come up with the answers yourself, that is true confidence, that is your abilities as an individual to solve your own questions, this is you learning what is right and what is wrong, what is attractive and what is not, on your own. This is where confidence comes in, because you know you've work for it, and everything that you get, you are responsible for all of it. Not you learning lines and getting the results, you're confident in the pick up, but you're not confident in yourself. You may be confident in yourself using pick up, but to be truly confident in yourself being attractive, being sure that this is who you are, and women love it.... I find that hardly the case.
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I believe the fastest way to "increasing confidence" (another vague concept that has been hammered home to men since time immemorial, and typically never garnering actual results) is to do until one becomes. It is much more difficult to become before one does because there is no real-world success to boost your self-esteem. Deciding to carry yourself with confidence and live a great lifestyle should always be encouraged, but nothing beats actually going out there, stepping out of your comfort zone and applying concepts that don't come naturally to you, and closing a beautiful woman. And as the success increases, so does the true confidence that will make one a natural.
I totally agree. It is very difficult to become before doing, but doing does not necessarily mean you have to use pick up lines. Doing can mean actually find things to improve yourself, and do it, become that man, and go out there and see what happens. With or without pick up, in order to improve yourself and become the better version of yourself, you HAVE to step outside of your comfort zone, you HAVE to apply everything that you've learn from experiences and begin to change your bad habits and things that aren't natural to you, and you must have this constant strife to becoming better with yourself and the women around you. This is how I see it, and this is what I believe in. I see the benefits of learning pick up, I'm not going to lie, I did try it myself, and I do see results, but I feel like there's so much more than that. There's so much more way beyond pick up lines and openers, there's more to that, and I know when I'm actually in a relationship, I don't even think about whatever I've learned or have used, I still do okay. I don't even use openers, kino, etc. etc, anymore either, and I attract women to me, it's not because I've develop the habit of this and doing all of this autopilot style, it's because I have come to a realization that I am attractive, women want me, and I have so many qualities as a man whom any girl can dream of. I know I'm confident, I know I'm sexy, I know the women that I want, want me. I have a strong desire to pleasure her in bed and just the desire to "make her life better than before I have met her." Being certain of all these qualities, that isn't really as concrete, I still get results. It's because I am sure of myself, I am confident, and the mindset and innergame that I have. I know I don't even need to say things to her to have her know this, I simply show it through my actions. The way I look at her, the way I smile, the way I talk, and everything. It's jsut me and her and no one else, there's this connection, that I can't really put into words. It's a feeling, it's not love, it's not sexual, it's just this feeling that draw us towards each other. And this is not from learning pick up, it's basically my mindset and how I see myself and the world around me. This is why I stress so much on improving yourself or just basically learn more about yourself because once you know who you are and what makes you so attractive, you don't have to think about when to touch her, when to cocky funny her, when to do this or that. You just do, because you've put so much work on yourself that you naturally become that man whom attract the types of women that you want.
- Nelson
CHAT
If you want her, get her. Don't push her if she's not ready, but that doesn't mean you should be her free therapist or a friend either. Just go out and do soemthing fun with your life, and invite her to come along. Worry about having fun, and don't stress about her having fun too much, if you're not having fun, chances are she won't either. If she calls you out and questions you, just be honest about it and say, "I just want to have fun, I'm not looking for a relationship, I know you need some fun, so why not worry about having fun?" Let her know you're interested in her, let her know you're not looking for a relationship, because if she really broke up with her ex, she DOESN'T need a relationship right now. You're not her rebound, you're just here to have a good time, and she just happens to be that girl that you are attracted to, whom you want to have fun with. So, have fun. 