Bloke,

I like to disagree. Being a natural does not necessarily mean less work or that it's an easier path. Being natural does not necessarily mean you can just be yourself and get results that aren't as fast or better girls when you're using pick up. Instead of learning canned materials and lines that are rehearsed, to learn to be naturally attractive to women without having to do much work, takes a lot of work on learning about yourself and how to authentically improve yourself so that you can be the best sexually, confident, desirable man that you can be. To be sexy, confident, and attractive to women, has nothing to do with women at all. It has to do with yourself.

Ever heard of this line by David Deangelo, "Attraction is not a choice" When I heard this phrase, I was like, what the eff is this guy talking about? What does he mean, attraction is not a choice, how can this be when I can sweet talk her, tell her what she wants to hear, and make her like me? To me, attraction WAS a choice! but after awhile, with more experiences, I've learned that attraction isn't a choice. We don't choose who we are attracted to; we just see a beautiful girl who's fun, intriguing, and we automatically get turn on right on the spot. Same thing with women, they don't go out and choose who they are attracted to, they see how the guy carries himself, and if he carries himself as a sexy motherfucker, she's attracted to him. Women has it easier than us though. They can use the power of makeup and instantly become more attractive. They spray perfume and BAM they're instantly attractive through scent. They use the power of fashion and social skills, which draws us, men towards them.

What do guys get? Well, the only make up we get to put on are a pair of pecs, biceps, and six FUCKING PACKS! Women take 2 hours to finish their makeup, well so do we! While they're brushing and powdering, we're lifting and running. Theirs go away after they shower, ours go away from eating junk and being lazy. I can go on, but my point is,

"attraction is NOT a choice...... but becoming attractive is."

To become attractive is purely your decision. You need to learn how to become attractive and sexy to yourself FIRST, before you become attractive for that girl that you're in to. You've got to believe you're sexy, that you're confident, that you're the FUCKING MAN, and she's your woman. You've got to believe that you're entitled to your own happiness, that you can have any girl that you want, that you can just go in there, look at her in the eyes, and just say hello and BOOM you guys are both attracted. How do you get there? Learn what IS attractive to yourself and to the type of women that you're attracted to. Instead of approaching her and try to score, OBSERVE HER and see what she is attracted to. Watch how that guy dress, his posture, how he talks, how he laughs and just have a good time. That guy can be you! You need to learn how to get yourself from where you're currently are, into that potentially sexy attractive man that YOU CAN BE. You need to do something with your life so that you can see the change so that YOU can believe that you're sexy. SEEING IS BELIEVING! So start doing something for yourself to see, so that YOU CAN BELIEVE. This does not happen overnight. This is a process, and when you've truly mastered yourself the results are unbelievable. Yes, it takes more work than learning lines and openers, but when you truly become that best version of yourself, you NATURALLY ARE ATTRACTIVE and women will just come into your life easily and effortlessly because you've already did all of the work on yourself at home, at the gym, wherever it may be.

Yeah, you can learn lines and pick up which will get you faster results, but are those rehearsed routines really who YOU are? Those stuff are crutches, training wheels, and once you do get results, are you really SATISFIED? Are you a better guy than you were before you got her? Are you really that sexy?

The only reason why natural may inspire laziness is because it's not fully done correctly. Yes, to be naturally attractive means to be in the moment and not have bullshit in your head, thinking is she into me, is she not? It also means to be able to spontaneously go with the flow. That is correct; what's missing however is that being natural means being true to who you are and knowing who you are and how you work and what you must do to get what you want.

You can be a doctor, a musician, a magician, a dancer, a beggar, a manwhore, a nice guy, it doesn't matter who the fuck you are. You are responsible for your own actions. Your actions affect your life. There is something you want. You must act, make choices, that lead you to that thing that you want. You work on it, you practice, and if you constantly align yourself, fix and adjust your path so that you are 100% aligned with your goal,you will get there. This does not only apply to being good with women, this applies to all areas of your life. You want women? Become naturally attractive, how do you do that? Do something to yourself which makes you attractive. Easy said, hard to do. I'm still working, I inspire and motivate you to do it too. I inspire all of us to do it too. That way we can talk about our own experiences and goals and be able to motivate each other becoming the best men that we can be! This is my perspective, I hope it contributes everyone and help everyone see a different side of the whole picture. Take care and good luck everyone.


- Nelson

_________________
F*ck it, let's do it

"In order to fill your cup, you must first empty your cup" - Bruce Lee

"Becoming great with women is a by product of becoming great yourself" - Cory Skyy

nnguy, you raised some very good points, but I'd like say that most of what you said was any different to what I said in the first place. let me explain.

This post is not against natural game. It's against natural gamers who claim not to use defined, strategy or canned routines (self invented or otherwise).

The post explains that becoming the 'best version of yourself' is imperative. If you want success, mastering your 'natural game' is not an option. People must be natural to pick up, but to be a MPUA they must also have a plan.

You've based the type of women you want on your game (or vice versa). Ie. you meet a girl and if there's that natural connection, then great you want her. If it's not there, you don't want to create an 'artificial' attraction. Your approach is not wrong, just different. I'm saying sometimes I meet hot girls and there's no instant spark, and I want to create that, because I still want her. If that instant connection is what makes you find a women desirable and worth it, then don't change what you're doing, because what your doing is working well for you.
I'm guessing you're mostly talking about physical appearance since you mentioned going to gym and being disciplined. Being 'good looking' does not get you girls. It does get you more attention, more open opportunities. But unless you have the ability to convert the opportunities you won't do much better than your average looking guy and definitely not better than an average looking guy with killer personality. Becoming attractive is good and we should all try to look our best, we shouldn't depend on it though.

I agree with you, looks does not mean shit if you can't back it up with your personality. I think we are on the same page but there's a bit of misunderstanding, let me clarify by quoting myself and show you what I meant:
When I say learning about yourself and improve yourself to be the best version of yourself, I literally meant every single words. Yes, looks is part of it and I know I mentioned it, but specifically what I'm trying to say is:
Remember, this has nothing to do with women right now, this is about YOU, so what makes you so attractive? Do you know what makes you attractive? Do you see yourself as an attractive man, not just physical appearance, I mean yourself as the whole package. Do you see yourself as an attractive man? Can you see yourself attracting an abundance of women everywhere you go? What are the qualities of that type of man? When I say qualities, I don't mean looks, I mean what kind of qualities do that guy have? This connects to you when you said, That skill to convert the opportunities that you mentioned is exactly one of the qualities that a ladies man have and to gain this skill connects back to learning who you are and how you work. You've gotta know what you do, what you think, and how you feel when these opportunities does show up, by learning about yourself, you have the power to take action and do something different which may cause different outcomes. The only way to do that is to be certain of who you are and how you deal with everything.

What is attractive to you may not be attractive to me. We all have our own preferences, so what makes an attractive man? What kind of qualities does he has? Do you have those qualities? This is what I meant by working on yourself and improving yourself to be the best man that you can be, so that you attract the type of women that you want into your life.
I didn't just focus on looking attractive, I've been talking about becoming attractive overall. Becoming attractive in all areas of your life. How you look, how you think, how you feel about yourself, your own lifestyle, how you present yourself to others, your energy towards your own life, etc, etc. Do you get me? Are you living the lifestyle of a man who attracts the women that he wants? What does it take to live that life? What changes can you make to live that life?

This is what I meant when I said align yourself with what you want, make adjustments, changes, or anything that you HAVE to do to position your arrow at the bulls-eye. In order to do that, forgive me because I know I'm getting repetitive, you NEED TO KNOW WHERE YOU ARE which means you need to know who you are, how you work, and your mental habits which affect your words and actions which causes the situations. Are you with me?


I know my approach is different because I'm not focusing on how to get the girl to like me. I know who I am, I find myself attractive, I know I have all of the qualities of a confident, desirable man who can satisfy whatever fantasy she may have. What does she have to intrigue and keep me besides her looks? I know I'm attractive (beyond looks ) because I know I did a lot of work on my own, and I love myself, she should love me too, if she doesn't oh well, she's not the only attractive girl out there. This is what I meant in my previous post. I hope this clears the misunderstanding. If there is any questions, comments, or concern, please don't hesitate. Thanks for reading


- Nelson

_________________
F*ck it, let's do it

"In order to fill your cup, you must first empty your cup" - Bruce Lee

"Becoming great with women is a by product of becoming great yourself" - Cory Skyy

Well, I am really happy, that I´ve read this topic, because this thing was bothering ever since I found out a bit more about Pick up (not so long time from now). I was wondering, why naturals hate so much MM etc.......... I think most o us were not succesfull with theirs natural game and thats why we started to learn to pick up. I think tha best way to be really good pickuper is to mix the good things from both worlds...........in my opinion, as far as I have read, the good combo could be something based on MM and 60 years of Challenge.
Sorry for my english, but I am not native speaker (Czech Republic)

brilliant post! I will get my ass in gear and practice more routines. Musically speaking, you have to put in the time to learn licks for your arsenal.

I think you need to learn both styles. Natural game, as exhilarating as it can be, can leave you in dangerous blank spots and this is where MM stuff can help fill the blank moments.

I will also say, that the 3rd biggie is to simply approach more women. This is where you increase the odds for more closings, you get to practice more either Natural or MM, you learn more about women, and discover that there are women out there who dont require too much game to get them.

I will practice what i preach!

Bloke -

I understand where you are coming from and your perspective on the matter... Coming into the game relatively little experience... One problem is that not natural game is laziness.. Its the teacher.. Also buyer beware... Alot of the ppl on the board giving advice are novices themselves giving advice on what they dont themselves understand.. Honestly its hard to teach this sort of thing from words on a screen... Or from a book... Because often its not what you do... Its how you are doing it....
Natural game takes years to develope... Newbies cant grasp this... And there is nothing wrong with that.. In fact... I think new people to this game should be taught routines in person from an experienced PUA whom has a solid method... Often times.. This costs money that only some can afford.... I believe the reason for routine's in the first place is not to be permanent fixture... Its a start point... When you become more advanced and have practiced all these... You start to develope natural game...,you dont need the routines er gambits... You may still use a few... But now... You are now using the enviroment and full setting as your gambits.. Not pre programmed stuff...

Its a developement process...

Denis - great post



~Genuine

_________________
Keep doing that and I'll make you tremble...

Cutiest girl ask for more, unfortunately someone's creeping on my floor.. an empty glass a topless babe a knock at the door.. girlfriends girlfriends never could be more..

It really doesnt matter either way guys. There are so many ways to approach women. Look at them all use the bits that are good or fit YOU and discard the stuff that isnt.

End of the day no one school is THE way to do it. They are all just outlets for projecting who you are and your acceptance of self worth.

Dont treat PUA like a religion and crusade or become a fanboy of a certain style being the best or another is sucks, everyone is different and will find different approaches better fitting for them. Everyone has a different level of understanding or is a different age so different styles will impact them differently. Because something is good/right for you does not make so for everyone else.

Treat ALL of this as a pool of knowledge to draw from to achieve your goals whatever they are as they are all relevant.

I haven't read everyone's reply so I'm not sure if anyone has said anything similar to this. But I don't think you can call either style "lazy". Both require different skills and lots of work.

Personally, I've always been a very outgoing, social guy. Although I used to really struggle with girls, I stuck to my guns and kept going with the natural game. I preferred to stay natural and go out of my comfort zone over attempting to switch over to PUA which I simply wasn't comfortable with.

I've never been able to tolerate people (guy or girl) who are "fake" or big "story tellers". I know there's so much more than that to PUA, but that's the reason that I prefer natural game. I'm myself, no lies or gimmicks. I still neg and tease a lot and use push-pull, but that's always been part of my natural game and personality.

Natural Game is still PUA.. its just your own words your own motions etc...


The idea behind any method is to make it yours.. learn a few methods and make one..

eventually routine.. becomes NATURAL..

_________________
Keep doing that and I'll make you tremble...

Cutiest girl ask for more, unfortunately someone's creeping on my floor.. an empty glass a topless babe a knock at the door.. girlfriends girlfriends never could be more..

My point is that you can't be an awesome PU artist with only one method. You need natural game AND an idea of what you're doing/ why you're doing it.
Many of my routines I'd consider 'natural' now. But because my foundation was MM and Natural game I know which part of the PU I'm up to and can adjust accordingly. I know when I'm in comfort or when I need to build attraction and I have the tools to do both these things.

YOU NEED BOTH MM and NATURAL GAME, end of story. You can't have just one and be successful

heres the thing.. I worked my ass off to get the natural game I have now.. thats why I was saying its not lazy.. I didnt even hear of MM or PUA as an actual community until about 2010..

I was shy.. had noone to show me.. I was AFC.. I worked hard on gettin myself to get to where I was the guy they were fucking.. not the friend..


Mystery himself worked his ass off.. except he did something I didnt.. I didnt create a method to teach others.. although I have taught others.. just not for compensation.. I did it cause I wanted him to get laid.. and always saw him in friend zone with girls..

_________________
Keep doing that and I'll make you tremble...

Cutiest girl ask for more, unfortunately someone's creeping on my floor.. an empty glass a topless babe a knock at the door.. girlfriends girlfriends never could be more..

We all do have knowledge of how solid game works.
Being a natural (former mPUA) I say Natural is the way to go, heres why.

mPUA Is a great way to start. I came into game with no self confidence, clueless about what to say to girls, afraid of approaching, and like a lot of us, I wanted to be the guy laying girls and getting girls attracted to me. I saw results with reading a routine and trying it out, I had fun with it because I learned which routines fit me more and which routines were out right here. But I faced many flaws;

1. There are many girls that know game. They can turn a routine into flames if they know where your going with a routine.
2. Not everyone generally wants sex.
3. Using the same routine(s) became old and no fun because they were being turned against me due to the fact of them not working

Soon my goals changed. I didn't want to just lay girls, I wanted to be able to just talk to girls. Make Friends. Make my social circle larger without having to get to lay a girl. I actually wanted my confidence to go high and stay there, not just go up for a night or two. I wanted to meet guys and make friends with guys, I wanted the confidence to just go up to anyone and not come off as wanting to have sex with them. I wanted to find out who I was. And in the end of the day, mPUA doesn't teach you that stuff. If your looking to get laid STRICTLY, mPUA is i guess okay but still Natural is better.

One thing naturals rely on is their inner game. Inner Game is that sense of confidence, that sense of self love, that sense of knowing you ARE the man and you ARE worth it and knowing that girls do want to talk to you. With strong inner game you have that confidence to where you dont NEED direction anymore, you can do things on your own and know whats ok and what's not okay.

Another component of natural game is being DIRECT. mPUA tells you when you open, you should go indirect, use a cold approach, use a magic trick, ask for an opinion, etc. Fuck That. Guys with direct game CAN walk my a girl and glance at her, maintain that eye contact, smile at her and say " I can't lie. You are a beautiful girl" with a warm smile and introduce themselves, then work their game from there.

Natural game IS hard, its NOT easy and is RECOMMENDED for users just starting out with game. You do have to read stuff but you do need to go out and approach girls they see and instead of saying "Excuse me can I ask you a question? Me and so-n-so have a cat and..." you say something as simple as "Your cute" with a smile and introducing yourself. Its tough at first but when you get it your confidence goes through the roof.

I believe there are times to go direct and times to go indirect. You need to be able to do both..

Put it this way. PU is both an ART and a SCIENCE.

Being a natural is the art, but knowing the theory is the science (of which MM is one example)

Here's a related post I made on another site.

"The best people I've seen are the ones who learned through trial and error, and not being dogmatic.
There's no system, nothing right or wrong, just appropriate and inappropriate. You'll make all the distinctions you need along the way. Use a guide if you want.
Important thing to remember is that speaking to girls is the first step, learning how to do it well comes second. I'm all for certain people's advice, but you're harming yourself if you don't go in field and get a reference point for it."

I don't like to use the term natural, but I would be considered one by most. I don't agree that being natural is lazy. Like every skill, it's as easy or as difficult as you make it. It's up to you how much energy you invest in it.

I think people are missing the point of what being natural is. It's not an approach, a system or anything. It's taking what's in the moment to drive the conversation forward.

I'm fascinated with people and and social nuances and regularly make distinctions in my head that help me improve my social skills. Many people who never heard of the community do this both consciously and unconsciously but you can't argue they're anything but natural. It's human nature to learn and grow.

You might have some success with MM but as soon as you have method, you're filtering out any girl that doesn't fall into your categories.

A massive problem, which is heightened by using a method, is that people have no clue when to push things further, or how to do it. This could be called calibration. When I go out I can always spot a few girls who I know are up for it.

Lately I've been going more direct than ever. Having so much fun but I'm probably going to tone it back a bit in a few months. I think that once you know that you can be that direct and straightforward with a girl it is still sub-communicated.

I speak to all types of guys and girls whenever there's some about. I meet new people every day. I'm living in a place where the turnover rate of people is about a week or 2. This really thought me the value of being in the moment and making a move quickly. It also means that a lot of girls are here to party and have a good time.

I'm behind a bar as well and it's be stupid to use routines there. I HAVE TO rely on my social savvy to have fun with people and make tips. It's because of this I know that bouncing back and forth with the person, creating this energy, is so powerful. And it has to be in the moment.

Honestly, if any of you have ever experienced that flow state, where you're on super-pilot, like you're a detached observer of yourself and everything is just going smoothly, maybe a little dance to your walk, you'll know what I'm talking about.

I could write for hours but I'll leave it at this. In essence, any method or system might give you success but you'll never be able to handle situations it doesn't cover. You'll never be able to switch off. There's always logistical issues. Always circumstances.
I could charm the pants of the girls parents if I have to, or I could stop her while she's with her mother. And that's what this is about. Being able to seeing what you want and being able to get it. Being an artist, and not a photocopier.