Natural Game = Laziness



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 Post subject: Natural Game = Laziness
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:24 pm 
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Like most people who discovered The Game, through the book, 'The Game' I started my PUA journey as a Mystery Method devotee. I began learning gambits, routines, body language skills and even tried a magic trick or two (though quickly gave that up).

A few months passed and my success was growing. After spending more time on these forums, I began to notice a trend towards natural game and that MM was somewhat frowned upon.

The more I read that natural game was better, the more I began to doubt MM. The more I read MM was lame, the less effort I put into learning the formulas and techniques.

Thus, I began sarging the natural way. Just approaching girls using the calibration and body language skills I had already acquired since starting my PUA journey. I was confident, my inner game (by this stage) was somewhat sound. I used good tonality and expressed my thoughts and ideas as a high-value male. I learned not to seek the approval of women, meaning I did not come across as needy. Though scripted openers would sometimes still escape my lips and the 'best friends test' would rear its head on occasions, most of my material was made up on the spot.

I was on my way to becoming a true natural and that's when my problems started.

My success rate dropped. I was still *closing girls, but now it was different. I was just an alpha guy asking girls to kiss me. It felt very caveman/afc really. There was no style in it ('scuse pun), no finesse, no art-form. If I was kissing girls, that means it was working right? Well, If you're talking about your average girl or two at a bar, who aren't overly attractive, or interesting, yes it worked. But maybe you're referring to the HB11 surrounded by her group of workmates, in which case the answer would be a resounding no.

Admittedly not all the girls I kissed were boring or unattractive. But isn't the ultimate goal of a PUA to have the skills and ability to get the girl anywhere, anytime?

I believe as a natural there's less pressure and less work. No gambits/routines or patterns to learn. It's the simple road. Just be yourself, be fun, engaging, teasing, sociable and girls will fall at your feet. Only some will.

Many people take the natural path because it's far less work than memorizing patterns/routines and having to know the right thing to say at the right time, I was one of those people. I believe that's why the natural movement is gaining so much popularity, it's less work. But when you see the girl of your dreams at a bar, surrounded by a group of footballers, is being a confident, high-value man with decent social skills enough to get you over the line?

I recognize that MM can be very flawed if a man allows it to change him into something he's not. Especially if he's lying about his stripper ex girlfriends being abducted by sea-monkeys. This puts many people off MM, the belief that it turns you into a show-pony and tall-tale-teller. It can if you let it. But the theories and techniques behind it are impressively solid, the best. It's what pick up, as an art-form, is really based on.

On the similar note it would be unfair if I did not say that being a natural embodies many excellent things. Solid body language, tonality and more importantly, being an interesting, high value guy, for real,. These are irreplaceable attributes in becoming a PUA. But it's only half the art-form.

A natural PUA without knowledge of how solid game works is missing half the weapons out his arsenal.

It's musical ability without the theory. It's a skilled writer who can't spell. It's a street fighter with no martial technique. Am I saying that you can't be an all natural and have solid game? If solid game is getting the girl consistently, despite circumstance or depending too much on how the girl feels at the time/ her situation, the answer is yes.

If your game is struggling between natural and MM game here's my advice: Learn everything you can about being a natural. Then go back to FMAC (Find Meet Attract Close). Follow it step by step, set by set, consistently trying to reach the next level. Implement new routines, gambit, stories and note which level you can usually get your target to, then work on your sticking points. Throw out what doesn't work and take note of what does. Replace bad habits and bring discipline into your life. But do not throw out your personality or become something your not. Build your skill set. This is the simplest way to work on your game and tangibly note your improvements.

Are you a natural? Great! But that's only half the journey. Discrediting learning solid game, whatever your excuse, is going to cripple your performance and options. No doubt it takes time and effort, to learn negging, boyfriend destroying patterns, rehearse DHV stories and so on, but it's this hard work that pays off. I'm not asking people to become, 'unatural' or somebody they're not, but more asking the school of naturals to give pick-up, as an art-form, the credit it deserves.

After-all pickup is an art-form, that's why we're called artists.


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 Post subject: glad you cleared this up
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:01 pm 
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hey man great post im glad you mentioned this. Particularly about using MM but not letting it change you

good post!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:37 am 
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I couldn't agree more. I would consider myself more natural do to the fact that I am attracting girls, and sometimes I don't even know what I said to do it. I felt like I didn't have style and was just hit or missing. Natural is good, but you still have to have strategy if you want to get every women that you can.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:55 am 
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this is EASILY one of the top ten posts i have ever read on here. Mainly because this is exactly what i needed to read. I have gotten successful and now only rely on my inner game (which is in my opinion the most important part of PUA) but i seem to have forgotten that it is not the only part of PUA...

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:12 pm 
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Couldn't help but notice your post here and I'd like to give my two cents.

Perhaps natural game means hit or miss to you, getting less results out of laziness. I respect that, because the natural approach is not for everyone because...

First off, to use your music metaphor here, some people thrive on freestyling whether it's because of their imagination, creativity or because they're risktakers who don't want to know... but see what comes next. Then there are people who thrive on coming up with 16 bars (rappers), hit pieces, choruses, and all of that. They're more analytical. Both approaches are very different, but difference doesn't equal superiority and/or inferiority.

Secondly, you sound like you assume the natural approach is "just doing something and seeing what happens." Au contrare my friend. If you pay close attention, the natural is the one who uses the circumstances of a situation and turns it into a routine... he invents a routine on the spot instead of going in with one... but at the same time he tends to fall into patterns. For example, I knew this guy who was a fisherman and natural, pretty good in clubs, but when he tried using his boat to give a tour of the harbor once for sh*ts and giggles and got what he wanted so much faster than before, he stuck to using his boat, constantly trying to tweek the ingredients of his approach yet he never heard of MM, know what I'm saying? Natural game and routine-based game are very much alike.

Last but not least: routine-based game has a pre-defined goal by nature, because it's using a routine to get a specific outcome. Natural game, however, does not have a pre-defined goal since it is freestyling. That does not mean it is flawed though, it simply means it's up to the natural to set his own goals. It's his responsibility. If he doesn't then he plans to fail because he fails to plan.

In my opinion, being a natural is more difficult than using routine-based game because it requires more responsibility (you need to set your own goals) and it requires one to be quick on his feet (if you don't have the experience with women to see through a situation, you're screwed). At the same time, the latter is an advantage: routine-based game can be broken when too many unexpected events happen, while natural game expects to go with the flow. This is why the best natural are the ones with the most social skills: they can read between the lines in situations faster, because they have more social intelligence.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:58 pm 
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This is exactly what I've been trying to say.

I made a thread on AI about this.

Natural Game promotes laziness from newbies like me, and even the best at it sacrifice quality and number of women for better connections and interactions.

I was telling the guys on AI, I wouldn't be doing game if I just wanted to get to know women really well. I want to have sex with women. Quickly. Efficiently. With a high rate of success. This isn't what I want to spend my whole life doing, I'd be great if I could master this in the next 4 years.

Learning natural, they recommend just approaching women that you are interested in. You see, this is a problem for newbies because the improvement is not coming fast enough when going at the pace the newbie wants to go at.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:04 am 
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Hey Dennis, I have alot of respect for a man who can present an argument in a clear, concise and mature manner.. So much appreciated!

Using the music metaphor (again), routines can also be seen as a form of free-styling, depending how you define it. It's picking the right things to say/do at the right time, depending on the situation (Unless you're using a routine stack or something, but let's not get too caught up in this).

and that leads to my next point,
Quote:
I knew this guy who was a fisherman and natural, pretty good in clubs, but when he tried using his boat to give a tour of the harbor once for sh*ts and giggles and got what he wanted so much faster than before, he stuck to using his boat, constantly trying to tweek the ingredients of his approach yet he never heard of MM, know what I'm saying? Natural game and routine-based game are very much alike.
Again we're basically breaking this down to definitions. What really means what? I don't like discussions that come down to definitions, but we'll proceed anyway. This guy has created a 'routine', which has become a canned routine, see what I'm getting at? He's still a natural true, but using canned material, which isn't what naturals are 'supposed' to do. If we were to say a natural is someone who only uses canned material he created himself, then he is a natural and we are admitting even true naturals use canned material.. I think what I'm getting at is that there are no true naturals, who can discredit the use of MM tactics entirely (even if they don't know it exists).

Parts of MM theory still sneaks its way into a natural PUA, just as (over time) being a natural sneaks its way into a MM PUA. See what I'm getting at?
Quote:
In my opinion, being a natural is more difficult than using routine-based game because it requires more responsibility (you need to set your own goals) and it requires one to be quick on his feet .
It is more difficult, but not in a good way. You're right, routine based game has clearly set benchmarks that one can use to measure their progress. Being a natural does not. Again I think this reinforces my point that naturals are only making it more difficult for themselves by discrediting MM based game. Yes, a natural definitely has to be quick on his feet, but does this mean a un-natural does not? Again the natural makes it harder for himself, by having to create material on his feet, he may miss key opportunities.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:44 am 
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Well...ill say a couple things...one the goal is to fuck, not kiss girls at bars. Two natural direct game works perfectly well in a group of hbs. I agree that mm n learning routines n ish is crucial. It gives u a deeper arsenal, n guarantee the convo doesn't get stale. If u havnt read the post on "shock n awe" go read it...that shit is gold!! I've just started field testing that, n it is working incredibly. You can pepper in routines, but I think that just sticking to those, keeps u from really succeeding. Think of it like this...if u use some canned non-confrontationalish opener, you probably open more sets that are cool with u n talk. If u go direct, observational style while flirting, u may get less positive results all around, but the girls who dig it, you will fuck. Do you feel me? I think mm n learning routines is crucial, n when I didn't understand HOW to really increase attraction, those tricks were incredible n got me into situations I normally wouldn't be in. The thing tho, is they are just little fun whatevers. I use routines when I feel it will help the situation, but I don't go into a sarge expecting anything. If I see a girl I want, I go over n basically tell her. Honestly...read the shock n awe post...if u can keep it going, it really is fucking amazing!! With mm its like u r flirty, but u also keep it kinda hidden but not...its real head gamizh. You can skip most of the shit, go super direct n sexual, ull get less positive, yet MUCH better responses. Gl buddy...to each their own, but ill stick to more natural game, with the abilities to play games n use routines if I want.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:46 pm 
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I think most of us started with MM , you cant go 100% w/o MM , its good strategy
and its good to use it only as strategy dont borow the lines etc , makeing your own at the spot in action its always better than "who lies more" hahaha

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:24 pm 
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I wouldn't know what to think of this post. On the one hand, when reading, I think (this is so me, this is so me, ...) I haven't even started looking thoroughly into MM, (insert any MPUA's name). I come to this forum once every four months. Mostly when something didn't work out and I can't seem to figure out why it went wrong. I can hardly imagine I'm the only guy on this forum who thinks likes this.

Some of the routines I've read where fun and interesting, but I do am to lazy to start learning them. So I come on here read a lot of inspirational stuff (of which most is forgotten after a few days). And I just continue, not sticking my neck out, but doing this with confidence! Objectivly seen I haven't got problems getting girls... In 2011 i've had sex with 5 different girls and made out with a total of 9. Nothing spectacular, but not bad. And all of this with natural game. Just being myself with confidence.

Problem: I'm not by far able to get every girl, still not picking up random women anytime anyplace. Just this weekend I went for the kiss with a hb 8.5 and failed. She gave me huge IOI's (I still think this has a subjective meaning, not all girls act the same around people). She flirted with a lot of people, I even saw her directly opening up some random guy and when she got his attention she ignored him. Maybe she was interested in me/ maybe not. The only sure thing I was myself (with notion of PUA in the back of my head) and I didn't get her.

The main problem is the easyness of supporting Natural Game, because it's the least effort. The problem of canned material is that you're probably lying when using routines, therefore you're not congruent. Combining the two would be the logical solution... But where to start in the maze that is called the world of Pick-up... For me personally and (I'm sure) a lot of people (not just even newcomers) this is the main problem. There is too much information, theories and opinions to cope with so we start thinking why couldn't women just like us for who we are. But then desperance turns into motivation and we continue.

One of the best posts I've read in a long time.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:26 am 
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Cali, raised some good points.

Let me just say that success is up to you. Say there's a guy who kisses 1 girl and another guy who kisses 100, the guy who kisses 100 isn't necessarily more successful. The determination of success come down to the individual person and their goals. Try not to think of it as 'the more I kiss/lay the more successful I am'. Kissing 9 girls is great and if you're happy with that, don't become unhappy because you hear other guys are getting more. In other words, don't make quantity your objective (because that is lame), rather make it quality and do what makes you happy.
Quote:
The problem of canned material is that you're probably lying when using routines, therefore you're not congruent.
I'm so glad you mentioned this! The biggest downfall of MM is telling the truth and the issue of incongruency. MM basically teaches that if you tell the lie enough times you will become use to it and it will feel congruent to you. In my opinion, this is totally fucked up thinking. Check out my thoughts on the issue here: here-vp498830.html#498830


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:20 am 
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I prefer natural. I hate MM or other fake methods because you use scripts, magic tricks (feels like a clown at a 10 yr olds bday party) and false pre-tenses to get the woman.

For me, I'm naturally cocky/funny, confident and humorous. I started cocky/funny getting into it, started using the techniques and realized it was who I naturally was. Some people are good at being natural, others are good at being fakes. Be who you want to be.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:15 am 
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^ What about that 90% of us who aren't naturally funny, confident, or decent looking?

What "natural" advice to you have for us besides "be yourself" which we've been trying to do our whole lives to no avail?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:01 am 
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Wow, got some real strong opinions on this. TBH read all the posts and the three best points and most important things that everyone needs to understand:
- its not about quantity its about quality. I know dozens of guys who make out with more girls than me, but they arent happier
- Naturals use canned matterial....the difference is that their "canned" material is something they've made up themselves and so its their signature thing
-Dennis is a champ

My own advice, its easiest to start with one and incorporate the other once you start to hit road blocks with the other. If you are using natural and you can get a girl to kiss but not fuck, look up phase shifting techniques. If you are using MM and you keep getting a girl somewhat interested and ur saying the same things as Mystery but arent getting laid then your body language is off, thus you have to go fix it. In My opinion both are mad important and its easiest to use both instead of just one.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:41 am 
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I don't use any canned material. I just go with the flow, use kino, c/f and relax. Some things may work on 1 girl but not another. The rest are A + B + C, all steps. Ok first I'm talking to her, now neg, now kino, now build rapport, etc etc. Blah blah blah...


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