Visor no offense to you but me and kasabi have our own disagreement, and he came trolling me(yes specifically me, didn't you notice how quickly he answered me but let all the other stuff go?), I ask for nothing more then the ability to troll him. It's ok for him to troll but I can't? This isn't an honest discussion about the usefulness of the section, be honest, it's an argument with a troll.
I am naturally skilled at debate, but gaining your respect wasn't my goal. It was to get you to do and say somethings, you followed through exactly as I expected. If you were studying your behavior through the words you have written what would you see?
Why did you even make that comment? What point does it hold? Are you trying to knock me down to size? LOL Seriously? Do you think any confident human being would think anything of this if it was directed at them?

You've judged me I appreciate that, but I got some very terrible news for you, I don't give a flying

FUCK!

I have never labeled myself Natural game guy, you have, thanks though. You are predictable. I know you are far more educated then me, but maybe you never learned to influence, manage, or communicate properly with people. Not very impressive for someone who has studied human beings and how they think, react, learn, to influence, and everything else. On the other hand lowly college drop out "loser" as you eloquently put it predicted exactly as you'd react. Sucks to realize but you aren't as impressive as you think. You were dead from the get go sir.

Now I truly do think you are a sharp cat, but if you think you are talking to a moron you are underestimating your opponent. I already got you to write back to me TWICE, you have been straight up predicted.

I must admit that it is quite entertaining that you have low thoughts of me, I have no reason to "qualify" for you. Why fight that argument? I am a loser by your standards, but you are to by my standards. How does that make you feel? Doubt you care.

Oh and of course why would I mind being your target? Seriously, who are you? Some internet guy named Kasabi who has some fresh thoughts? LOL Oh yeah you've studied for your PHD? So I am not smart enough to argue with you? Your higher education disqualifies my argument? How does that make you any more intelligent then me? Oh that's right education level has nothing to do with intelligence, you'd think someone like you would have figured that out but you are the smart one. Kasabi you are NOT smarter then me. More educated and for this I respect you, and I think you can teach me quite a bit but if you think I can't keep up with you then you are sorely mistaken.

Your condescending attitude is absolutely unneeded and does nothing but undermine your credibility. You are not that important to our world, as great as you feel to be the NUMBER ONE PICK UP POSTER. Wow, your life must be complete. I hope to one day reach the same Coolness you have. In case you missed it that is sarcasm.

Ok I'm done playing with you seriously, be cool with me and I'll be cool with you. I really would like to seriously participate in the other thread it could be fun, I would be very happy to learn some things.

Please, Please, lets move past this and be a respectable adults. Fight arguments with a little diplomacy. Our approval rating by people will get even higher. It disappoints me that you could just come on here and be a cool cat, but instead you just come on here to screw with people and talk crap(thought I couldn't help and do the same thing, sorry). Rather then teaching a lesson you piss people off, no one learns pissed. You don't open minds with intelligent argument you close minds with personal attacks. You could learn a lot from me in influencing people I'd bet, regardless of you understanding the tactics, it doesn't seem you are using them properly.

Kasabi I will continue to read what you have posted because you have posted some very interesting ideas and I do appreciate it, but know that I don't care enough about you for your personal attack to ever matter to me. In other words stop wasting your time on it, use it for something useful. Keep teaching, I'll keep reading, and maybe we can just avoid each other, probably far more useful to both of us then quibbling on an internet forum like losers.

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@ Kalel: lot's of good points, so I won't comb through your entire post. Here a few meta-points though.

I agree with your conception of guys who hide behind the natural sticker, and with what you say about them. Just didn't see, in your earlier post, the distinction between them and the other "natural gamers" you describe later.

As for the natural game evolution and your inner game point, natural game must focus more on inner game than any other method, no? Since you discard others' material and focus less on outer game, you've got to make it up--with inner game. True, the two are not synonymous, but I can come up with few other ingredients for natural game (assuming you want to jump right in).

I also think your description of the PUA journey, from AFC to "natural gamer" sounds sensible. Although, I want to draw a distinction. First, there are guys who are no good with women. For them, your path seems to be proper. But also, there are guys who were "natural" but then went AFC through a relationship (or some other "traumatic" event). In their case, all the gimmicks are useless and a little inner game work is all it really takes to get back.

I do believe there are enough guys who can do just fine with women, once they stop getting into their own heads. Filling their heads with theory will just overcomplicate and inhibit. And with the exception of the true internet junkies, inner game and in-field practice should work for just about anyone. Hell, I've cured seemingly hopeless cases just by taking them out and fixing their mindset.

if you really didn't gave a fuck you wouldn't talk about it ....

anyway this whole thread entertains me ... why are you guys taking this serious ? i think you shouldn't take game and natural game serious at all...

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Players are different then Naturals, You are a Player, which makes perfect sense. Naturals do not operate the same, Players are good with girls, a Lady's Man is good with girls, but they are not Naturals. I think there are a lot of issues with guys thinking their above average success with women without pick up makes them a Natural, I completely disagree with this. A Natural isn't above average with women he is ridiculous with women, he doesn't sleep with 3 girls a week he calls, he sleeps with 3 girls a week he meets and CHOOSES. There is a major difference.


wowow! that is not a natural that is superman/God like shit! i stand corrected, but i am sorry i find this hard to believe...

So if me and you go out i will point a girl to you poetic, make sure is your type, and you will go get her and fu$%$ck her, sorry pal, nobody and i mean nobody, not even brad pitt himself can do that CONSISTENTLY, KEY WORD, too many factors come into play. You are exaggerating a lot here...And as much as perv that i am i do not wish sleeping with 3 girls a week, the amount of stress, logistics,time and drama involve in that, plus the waste of time and resources not worth it, plus i do not ENJOY CONDOMS... Been there done that.. Finally, i said that i have not seen discuss the topic of getting stuff from women, i was not bragging just pointing it out, i see you are skill at that good for you..So i guess i never met a natural in my life i stand corrected.

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Because it is fun to screw with people out to screw with me. That is why.

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You'd be very surprised what Naturals are capable of. I'm not asking whether Naturals are capable of this I'm telling you there are guys out there like that. There are guys that go to the bar and hook up with a girl every time, even go to the car bang them and go back and snag another. Then never talk to them again. For them it isn't a waste of time, it is just what they do. They are very consistent.

Haven't you heard of the legendary guy that goes to a party grabs a girl and leaves. Has sex, then comes back to the party and does it again? That is the Natural. It's not stress for them, it isn't resources it is Natural. That is what is so crazy about it. Sex means nothing, it is an activity they participate in.

It's hard to explain but Naturals enjoy phenomenal success. I truly respect that you choose not to have sex with 3 girls a week that is cool. I have disdain for condoms as well, not my favorite thing. I am no fool, I wrap my tool. Too much shit going on out there and I can't afford to support a human for 18 years. It's not worth it to me, I don't trust girls who say they are on birth control. I know the influence I set on girls and I know more then a few would be quite content with spending the rest of their life with me, I'm not falling in their bear trap.

I'm not a Natural. I promise you that much. I'm not even on par with you I'd bet, but I enjoy solid success. I need nothing more then what I have.

My theory on Naturals- They choose girls that are already attracted to them, they have an abundance of choices, far more then the average man. They have instinctual reading of body language(at least from a courtship perspective), they know how far they can go, and they know how to go further. They elevate through the phases of courtship by instinct and flawlessly(they still fail, but their success rate isn't like 1-5 it's 2-3 and the time needed to spend with each girl is tiny in comparison to PUAs). They "know" the right body language to send without trying or realizing. Everything is faster and easier for them because they choose girls with an initial attraction and know what to do from there.

Perhaps there is a slight over exaggeration, but not as big of a exaggeration as you may think, there are guys out there like that. I've met one true Natural and lots of players really. People to me tend to think that guys that are good with girls are Naturals, I don't consider them Naturals, I consider guys that are epic with girls Naturals. Keep in my Skills, this is my definition of Natural, not yours. You may still fulfill your definition of Natural, there is no true definition of Natural out there.

So feel absolutely free to dismiss what I say, these are my thoughts. No one else may agree with them, which I understand. So you know take it with a grain of salt.

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"You'd be very surprised what Naturals are capable of. I'm not asking whether Naturals are capable of this I'm telling you there are guys out there like that. There are guys that go to the bar and hook up with a girl every time, even go to the car bang them and go back and snag another. Then never talk to them again. For them it isn't a waste of time, it is just what they do. They are very consistent. "



Me and my friends have the ability to do this, but we choose not too... Get laid going back to the club and getting laid again, is not as much FUN as you make it seem dude..Trust me on this...For one having sex in a car is the most uncomfortable thing in the world, the same with club bathrooms, the same with the beach... Plus motels are full most of the time on weekends... Keep going dude, you have no idea what you are talking about...

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You would assume so, but when you really start to look at the material out there, you will quickly find that "inner game" is the backbone of nearly all systems. Really the material acts as a catalyst to inner game work rather than a distraction from it. Realistically, the material on it's own is useless, unless it is used to foster inner game improvement. Also, most people have a hard time finding the balance between inner and outer game. Some guys put so much emphasis on inner game, that they become obsessed with inner improvement, to the point that outer game becomes an afterthought, and no real life experience is gained. Others, focus so much upon obtaining more and more lays, that the experience becomes meaningless to them, and they no longer find enjoyment with sarging. The idea is to balance the two, improve yourself as much as possible, but remember that that includes real life experience and interactions, and that outer game must be nurtured equally with inner.

Also, you'd be surprised how similar Alpha programs and certain direct game systems are to your idea of "natural game". In my experience, women can only really devastate and destroy the mindset of men who are already in some way insecure and weak. It's normal to be devastated in the short term, but a man with a strong psychology and confidence, will inevitably bounce back. Those who find themselves traumatized, were already in a weakened state going into the relationship, and the woman was just the breaking point.

I have know true naturals, who honestly were better with women than any pua I have know, without ever touching any pua material. And the most prevalent quality about them, is there strong sense of reality. They have a strong understanding and belief about their world and nothing can shake it, not even a woman. They do no misplace blame or absorb undeserved guilt. If a woman does something bad to them, they don't blame themselves, they blame the woman. They know who they are and they don't let women dictate how they see themselves or how they feel about themselves. They obviously get hurt, but they deal with the hurt and they move on. They don't internalize it or dwell on it. They let it run it's course, and then they continue on with their life.
This of course is a very healthy mindset to have, and one which any man can eventually obtain through inner game work.
I agree.
If you really take a step back an look at it. All this pua stuff is really just a way to give guys the confidence and mindset that they should have had from the beginning. The brain is a funny thing, and it has to be tricked into accepting a lot of things, because people are very resistant to change. If people were more apt to change, pua would be a much faster process. But they aren't, so most programs are gradual, drawn out, subtle exercises, that eventually lead to change.

Also, you have to realize that a lot of guys are walking around with a lot of misinformation about women and relationships, and erroneous mindsets on how to interact with women. A lot of these programs are designed to deal with that issue first and foremost, because this is the source of many guy's sticking points with women.

The secret to a natural is very simple, practice. Ask most true naturals, and they will tell you that they were sexual at a very young age, usually inappropriately young. And they continued experimenting and learning from then on. They have no fear or apprehensions about being sexual. They also don't get worried or frustrated about having or not having it. They expect it. They know they can get it. They don't doubt their abilities, nor should they.

Most guys are out their with an agenda about sex. They try and try and try. It's constantly on their minds, and they are always looking for ways to have it. That's not how a natural operates. A natural lives his life, and when he sees a girl he wants to fuck, he tries to fuck her; if he doesn't see any fuckable girls, he continues with what ever he was doing. Sex is not planed or thought about. It's an afterthought. It's a guarantee to them. When they go out, it's not "am I going to get laid?", it's "I'm going to get laid". That's the confidence they walk around with.

They put no value in getting laid. They are not the least bit afraid of getting rejected and getting rejecting has no affect on their confidence or self-esteem. They have high self-esteem and are usually narcissistic, and nothing shakes that self-belief. This allows them to be very shameless and outgoing around women. They can do or say anything to women and they aren't ashamed, and women love that about them. They love the uninhibited, overly confident, wild aspect of them.

he secret to a natural is very simple, practice. Ask most true naturals, and they will tell you that they were sexual at a very young age, usually inappropriately young. And they continued experimenting and learning from then on. They have no fear or apprehensions about being sexual. They also don't get worried or frustrated about having or not having it. They expect it. They know they can get it. They don't doubt their abilities, nor should they.

Most guys are out their with an agenda about sex. They try and try and try. It's constantly on their minds, and they are always looking for ways to have it. That's not how a natural operates. A natural lives his life, and when he sees a girl he wants to fuck, he tries to fuck her; if he doesn't see any fuckable girls, he continues with what ever he was doing. Sex is not planed or thought about. It's an afterthought. It's a guarantee to them. When they go out, it's not "am I going to get laid?", it's "I'm going to get laid". That's the confidence they walk around with.

They put no value in getting laid. They are not the least bit afraid of getting rejected and getting rejecting has no affect on their confidence or self-esteem. They have high self-esteem and are usually narcissistic, and nothing shakes that self-belief. This allows them to be very shameless and outgoing around women. They can do or say anything to women and they aren't ashamed, and women love that about them. They love the uninhibited, overly confident, wild aspect of them.




100% CORRECT THIS IS BRILLIANT EXACTLY! kalel you are really good at explaining the natural!!!!!good job, thumbs up...

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A large part of my pua training was shadowing my cousin who is the greatest true natural I have ever met. He grew up in a small town in another country, where the culture had for the most part remained unchanged for the last 200 years. His mindset about women and sex was therefore very primitive and untouched by modern corruption. He was basically "man" as he would have existed hundreds of years ago, he was "man" as he was meant to be. He was never taught to be shy about his sexuality and sexual intent. He was never taught that women are delicate and must be placed on a pedestal. He was never taught to wine and dine women to get sex or to spend money on women at all. He was only taught to pursue women, and to try and get as many and as high as quality as he possibly could. It was like a game he had spent his entire youth trying to master. And as a result, he had pretty much slept with any woman in the town worth sleeping with, and that is not an exaggeration.

You posed a question in the form of a statement. A few posts ago, you essentially asked, "Did it take a lot of effort to reply to my bullshit?" - The answer is no. And the way I answered fits. You're the forum clown. Most of your contributions to this section is guesswork and you're cocky about it. This is your signature:
- and you say you're not a natural. And by what you consider game, "stand around and spot a girl who's ALREADY INTERESTED IN YOU," you really don't have a clue about any of this. So why are you here with your missionary work? You don't understand natural game, you're not a natural, and you don't even game women. If you get lucky once in a while, they GAME YOU. You stand there and spot them.

Then you keep your digging shit hole by pretending our interaction was by design? I don't know you, I don't care about you. Thus this is not a personal attack to you specifically. It's just I've found that cocky + stupid doesn't really garner too much support in the real World. You've got plenty of both.

LOL, Awesome. You are a priceless human being. You have or basically have your PHD in Psychology no? Autism is it considered a gift or a handicap? Do you communicate with just words or are your words defined by your expressions?

Get serious you know little if you are sitting here breaking down that signature as false. Is it false? NO! Is it 100% true not necessarily but, the intent of the statement is true. You seem to be making it very personal, you chose my signature of all things. How would that not be a personal attack? When I manage people I don't walk up and attack their choice of apparel, which is a similar concept to what you just did. PERSONAL ATTACK, it's fine, you mean nothing and with each argument you drop lower and lower in my thoughts of your intelligence.

If you don't think I am intelligent enough to talk out my ass like the rest of the world you are only illustrating your "high" intelligence and how open minded you are.


The funniest part about all of this is your lecture on my "arrogance" and how "cocky" I am. You of all people are in need of humbling, and yet you come to judge me, I do have my moments of arrogance, everyone does, but "Mr. Pot stop calling Mr. Kettle black". I apologize that my confidence and my tone can not be translated to a forum, I do recognize some of my statements as pompous on here, but they are meant to be humorous and the tone is impossible to translate. Yet again proving how important body language is.

I'm over Kasabi, avoid me and I will avoid you, I been away for a few weeks because of work, but I want you to know you don't matter enough to me to push me off a forum even if I am the "Clown".

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This is from fukivtimou or something like that:


"Why dont you guys help yourselves and replace the term natural with "a guy with sex appeal" or some other normal shit.

There is no such thing as pure pua and pure natural. Everyone is a mixture of sex appeal (attractiveness), and game (outergame, pua skills etc).. No matter who the guy is he will never have the ability to choose if he just sits and waits to be hit on by women. Some "naturals" just know how to attract women they want to without even wihout directly gaming them. Ive done that before in my "afc" days with a girl from some place my family visited for several weeks. No idea how, but it happened i dunno how i directed it towards the girl, all i know is i wanted her and that is it. Even though i never hit on her she felt that i wanted her and she initiated the conversation with me and we started dating (i was 16 shes 1. I did it before with classmates with 4 other chicks. I dont know how but all i know is i wanted them genuinely wanted them. And they all eventually initiated it. I was the quiet type but i never tried to be nice. I was sort of an ass but I never directly hit on them and eventually they were the ones who escalated the relationship to the next level.

There is no such thing as a pua unicorn ( natural ). Just a man who, like 90 percent of guys, had success with women. He failed he succeeded and he failed just like most guys, and just like most guys this "natural" felt like he could be better so he looks at tips online (pick up advice), and tries them (becomes a pua arguably).

This division between pua and natural is completely superficial and annoying with all the pointless threads devoted to it. The only difference are ones who are not humble enough to admit they are here because they need some degree of help.

Cant we go back to the normal days when there are no puas nor naturals just dudes trying to get laid more or better and sharing tips."

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i just gone through 2 seasons almost 3 of the keys to the vip, in couple of episodes(2), i am blown away with the puas, they perform to perfection, just saying, make me question if i should jump into structure game, i am impressed, compare to over 30 naturals the puas outperform:

http://www.hulu.com/watch/205404/keys-t ... 3-n3-so-i0


http://www.hulu.com/watch/204558/keys-t ... -aka-cajun

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