ok, so conker and I can agree, regardless of what her motive is, you need to start letting her back in. And, I agree your confidence is a little lower than it should be if you expect to nail a hired gun. IT IS WORK, and if you're only interested enough to try once, why try again?

I recommended the other girl in the context of she is more desperate than you, not that she is a ultimate bitch. If she is hurting, it is a little mean to flaunt another woman in her face, and if she catches wind that is what you are doing, you're hooped.

BUT, if the context of your relationship is that you and her are frozen out to the point of no return, bringing other women to your favorite restauraunt is just that, IMO. You can reset back into a guy who frequents the place she works, and it could take a lot of time to open back up. If you let her know you like her/want your rapport back, then you get just that, all of your old context.

Let us know what you try, and how it works, this falls under a catagory of extreme circumstance, and I hope to learn form it!

shes only being so sweet to you now so she can just do the same thing again later. she obviously gets off on it. Remember you may be on your social time, but shes just at work. You're a customer.

I meant to post something along the lines of what Conker posted in his last post, but, as I said, he did it already. This man is wise.

Back to the point. To me it seems, definitely, that she's trying to earn back respect in your eyes, no doubt about it. She's proud, so she doesn't want to say sorry, but if what you'Re saying is true, she's really putting herself out there so you would give her a tiny bit of time of day. And to me, her actions, which speak louder than words, convey that she knows it hurt you. Let her in, but slowly.

As far as what the previous poster said, it might also be another ploy to get you back to liking her so she can destroy you once again to "get off". But if that's the case, then you will know that she's a certifiable loon and that you are better off. Not to mention, it will dampen you in the short run, but it will strengthen you in the long run knowing that, as a person, you did everything right.

To me there is a slight chance that it will ever happen. I say, and this is different from my first post (but you added some crucial information which was missing in your first post), try to slowly get back to communicating with her so as to re-establish an equilibrium of sorts. You might be rewarded. Again, it depends on how much you want it. As far as I'm concerned, my pride would probably stop me from doing anything close to this, and it has often been the source of many downfalls of, not just me, but others also.

At least now you've showed yourself to be a standup man.

UPDATE

Well after 2 weeks of freezing her out (not playing along when she tries to flirt, sometimes outright ignoring things she says to bring me into conversation, not talking when she tries to stand by me etc) I decided to try to open up a little more. For the two weeks I froze her out (which equals to about 4 hours of seeing her) I could tell she was getting tired of trying.

Interestingly - and not surprisingly - when I went in this week she had frozen ME out to a certain extent.

Well, seeing this, I knew I would have to make first initiative. I did, referring to an old inside joke we had, she warmed up a little after this, and after a couple of sporadic back and forth throughout the night we were back to old fake arguing routine - albeit a bit more guarded.

Conker mentioned that it's times like this that are great for opportunities you wouldn't otherwise have:

So after I reestablished our old rapport to some extent, I addressed the "hostility". What I mean by hostility is that we've always teased eachother, insulting to some extent but always fun. Lately it's gotten more and more hostile, but still tongue and cheek.

So I took a funny approach to talking about the hostility, and she mentioned a bunch of things that had sort of bothered her. So by the end of it, I was running a routine where i pretended to be nicer than I was, which was obviously sarcastic, but she thought it was funny, and allowed me to be "fake kind" instead of "fake hostile"

I'm actually thinking this will be a better way to engage - considering how negative things got.

Thanks again for the advice. i think what Conker said really hit home - that when she puts herself out there you have to respect it. I think it will also be a good time to move into a "comfort" type situation since really all we've ever done up til now was flirting.

See that "fake kind" role playing thing you came up with, could only have been invented by you in your situation. Traditional PUA material puts too much focus on "routines" instead of "mindset". Women are more impressed that you're doing your own thing, and canned material are effectively training wheels to help shy people build their confidence. 99% of PUA material should be used as inspiration and a way to get an idea of what's possible and never followed to the letter. Something you actually want to do is going to be more enriched by your enthusiasm.

I have to say, that's seems like a darn good idea to switch to the "fake nice" routine you came up with now, and yes it would be a great idea to start building comfort now. Awesome job.

Quick question: would be it be a good idea to not go in next week?

I go in once a week for the poker night they have there - so I usually only see her once a week. She always expects me to be there and I'm there like clockwork.

I'm thinking it might be a good idea to miss next week. For one, it makes me more "rare" and for another it makes me look like I have a life outside of this poker game (which I do, it's just that on a Monday night I never have anything going)

On the other hand, is going two weeks without talking to a girl a bad idea for maintaining attraction? Especially in a situation as delicate as this?

This is hilarious. I don't like fake arguments with girls...and I don't like girls who get drunk and are unstable.

Freeze her out for the rest of your life...who cares how hot she is.

_________________
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@Bachelor Code, Geez, she she may not be your type of girl, but she's chrissyside's. If you can only provide advice for your types of girls then just do that.

@chrissyside - well I guess my question is - why do you feel like she needs more "push away" at the moment (in the game of push-pull)? Seems to me you've already done a heap of pushing away with ignoring her for so long. I'd only disappear for a little if she shows signs of complacency.

If you're really concerned she might be gettin too complacent, you can still choose to freeze her out a little as required during poker night.

But in my mind it seems she needs to be shown her efforts are working at this point. Depends on how you feel about her behaviour.

I was thinking it might be a good point to make her miss me - granted we only see eachther once a week anyway.

On the other hand, seeing her only once in 2 weeks might ruin the new momentum...

What are you basing this on though? For me these days, it's all about reading her vibe and adjusting the interaction accordingly. What else is there? They guy who gets the girl is the guy who can sense what she needs at any given moment. (Whether that be positive or negative SPAM)

For example, I just got off the phone wih a girl who needs a lot of comfort - that's a decision I've come to based on her past, her personality, and the way she's been talking to me. It's been going really well, it looks like she'll be coming over to my house on the first or second date, and even coming to the nude beach with me soon.

It looks like she enjoys talking with me at length because we have a lot in common, so I let the phone conversations go on at length.

Now normally I know to make sure I'm the first one to end the call, it's usually a good general rule. But as always, you have to make your own decisions in the moment, and taking her past into consideration, I'm letting us talk as long as we seem to want to, to build as much comfort as possible.

However, the last majority of phone calls, she's been the one to end it. While they are genuine reasons, there are two things to consider: 1. No matter how badly she does want to talk to me again and how genuine those excuses are, the sheer number of times she's ended it versus mine, are very much disproportionate, and this has a subconscious impact on her regardless of why it's happened. 2. It's caught me off guard every time, because she's bubbly and enthusiastic and enjoying it, and suddenly has to go, without warning. While I'm not precisely sure what this means, I do know it's definitley another sign that it's time to switch things up.

When it happened just now, I let myself sound a little startled and off guard - (I didn't need to make excuses though, because she knows I'm headed off to a party which she can't make t to because she's sick) and she certainly noticed, because her tone became a lot more light hearted and bubbly, and she tried to make things feel better. When I said "cool, tell me how your tests go tomorrow" she replied "oh, absolutely!"

I always plan the next step (but it's never set in stone) and now when I call her tomorrow (I expect to - girls never call, that's our job) I'm going to go ahead with my plan to offer her a visit (long story, not relevant), and however that turns out, I need to end the call first - of course I won't be able to make an excuse, because apparently I have the time to visit, but again, you use what seems like a negative to do something you otherwise wouldn't be able to. In this case, if she's still too sick for a visit, then rather than stay on the phone for a bit off chit chat like usual, I'll get going. It'll be done in a casual way, but the fact that I want to go do other things rather than talk to her, even when I had nothing on, is sure to catch her off guard. And from there on in, I'm adjusting my contact with her to make the idea of coming out more tempting by relying on the good rapport we've already built, but not giving her the satisfaction of talking on the phone for very long, which she seems to enjoy. Keep in mind this is a very timid girl. A loud outgoing popular girl I'd handle completely differently.


So you see it's all about feeling her vibe and doing the right things to get the appropriate response. To me it looks like you want to make her miss you out of principal that the PUA material says it's always a good idea, rather than because you suspect she needs it. I've made that mistake many times before and paid for it. You can't be ignoran of your surroundings and ignore things that need special handling.

Well said Conker -

She didn't come after me as much last time - but still seemed responsive - that's why I was thinking I should mix things up. It could be after my 2 weeks of freezeouts that she had frozen me out to some extent as well.

But reading your post I realize there are other ways to mix things up. For example, I've never walked up to her to engage her. Not once. Every time she finds an excuse to come sit by me and the convos go from there. I've never "approached" her in the conventional sense - even though I did begin the flirting.

I'm thinking a good way to mix things up might be to actually take the initiative to walk up to her and engage her.

Yes - while you're doing what you want and being confident, you should still be able to choose to attempt certain things which will allow you to gage her vibe from her response. And of those things, different ones will cause different levels of intensity in response, and you should only need to do something low intensity to get enough info, eg. you ask a simple question about something in particular, something not too risky and she simply responds, and you listen to eg. the pause before she answers, tone of voice, words she chooses, and decide what her vibe is from that.

I guess sometimes there are situations where you have to go out on a limb and do something high risk if you want the reward, and be prepared to roll with whatever happens. Being turned down and still being able to keep the situation fun like it never happened, is again, another situation that will win you points which wouldn't have otherwise happened.

Anyway don't think too deeply about what I'm saying here when the time comes - you do your deep thinking beforehand, which is an inside mindset, and then when you get in the moment, you almost forget it all and switch to an "outside" mindset and just live in the moment, and useful things will come to mind when they're needed. You're fine with this it seems (except for underestimating where you're at with her, heheh) But I think offering suggestions is always going to be a wall of long detailed text, which is better delivered in speech where it can create a good vibe and not seen as a set of instructions.

Good words Conker. Calibration is something I need to work on.

Here's a question. a friend of mine once told me that it's a mistake to think that not asking for the number is "high value" - it's actually low value to not ask for the number.

So the obvious question is, if you ask for her number, and she essentially says no - or gives you a "strange rejection" what does it say about you if you keep trying?

I'm referring to this in your post:

UPDATE!!!!

She hates me.

To catch you all up to speed - once I fell into the rut of freezing her out - I couldn't get out of it. It just became a habit to ignore her. She would occassionally try to say something, and I would be polite, but I just couldn't go back into the old routine. Occasionally we would have a funny convo but it only lasted a few seconds or so.

Finally, a few weeks ago, I walked up to her and made some comment, some fake complaint about something really really small - AND SHE LOST HER SHIT!! she actually yelled at me and basically called me a jerk. Later she acted cool about it, but it was such a BIZARRE reaction. The blowup happend a couple weeks back and since then we just haven't spoken, but when we do, its obvious she can't stand me.

Not sure how it devolved to this, or what I did to piss her off - I've thought back over it and i dont think there's anything I said that deserved it .

ah well.

first post here, but I've been enjoying reading the threads on here.
I figured it was time to be a little more proactive in the PUA scene

Clearly she has some extended issues, but I have to ask...were you trying to string her along or did you just lose interest and not feeling like closing? It seems like you had the chances.