I believe. I edited the most obnoxious parts out of my own previous post.
Yes, a Jester leads the consciousness of the human race in some manner. It can be on a smaller or larger scale, but a Jester leads in the realm of ideas.
I talked with my Mom about this, who was a protester and lived through all of this. She said Lennon never wanted to be seen as an anti-war leader, that he did not take to the street. However, he definitely advanced his point of view through his music, and reached, many, many people that way. In her opinion his contribution to the anti-war effort was significant, arguably reaching more people overall than the direct confrontationalists. If you listen to Lennon's lyrics after he went solo, it's quite obvious how political he became.
Yes he definitely did listen, we agree on that. But he also shouted, and displayed anger, and called people out. His lyrics when he went solo are as confrontational as lyrics get. For instance, let's look at one that's relevant to PUA, "Woman Is The Nigger Of The World" from 1972. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woman_Is_t ... _the_World

Woman is the nigger of
the world
Yes she is...think about it
Woman is the nigger of
the world
Think about it...do
something about it

We make her paint her
face and dance
If she won't be slave ,we
say that she don't love us
If she's real, we say she's
trying to be a man
While putting her down we
pretend that she is above us
Woman is the nigger of
the world...yes she is
If you don't belive me take a
look to the one you're with
Woman is the slaves of
the slaves
Ah yeah...better screem
about it
That's a cop-out. When you repeat opinions, you either take ownership of them as things you believe, or you are giving them as "reportage," i.e. he-said she-said. Reporters generally frame them as such, disclaiming the opinions as not their own. In either case the opinions are transmitted, they are not kept quiet.
The USA lost the war. If not by the protesters crippling the USA's military involvement, how do you suppose the war was lost?
Glad to hear that you don't think of protesters as passive sheep.
That is true of WW II. But Korea was a draw, and we lost the Vietnam war. What really gave us what we have today, were the nuclear missiles that kept the USA and the USSR from destroying each other. Not the proxy wars. The Soviets had exactly the same problem in Afghanistan as we had in Vietnam. The superpowers were arrogant about what was a threat, what needed to be done, and what could be done. Vietnam has mattered not one stinkin' bit to US security.

One, two, three
What are we fightin' for?
Don't ask me I don't give a damn
Next stop is Vietnam
And it's five, six, seven
Open up the pearly gates!
There ain't no time to wonder why
Whoopie! we're all gonna die. Alright!
Apples to oranges. We won in Iraq. Or at least, we haven't seen any new dictator take over yet, and at this point my bet is it won't happen. The disappointing thing about Iraq is that in hindsight, the French, Germans, and Russians were right. We should have just contained Saddam and harassed him with UN Weapons Inspectors indefinitely. He didn't actually have any WMDs that anyone could find. We killed or indirectly got killed a lot of Iraqis for not much strategic gain in safety.

Afghanistan, we haven't won, we haven't lost, we just took our eye off the ball while stomping on Iraq. And now we're facing Afghanistan from a position of war weariness and massive budget deficit. Sun Tzu said, "No country ever benefited from a protracted war."
No, I don't. It takes courage to march when police beat you with riot batons. It takes courage to stand your ground and exercise your civil rights when they say they're going to arrest you. It takes courage to be handcuffed and hauled off to jail for what you believe in. The courage does score points. The media attention scores points. That is the Fourth Estate. That is how the game is played.

Sure Lennon was active. He was absolutely but when you are pointing out 72, he had been a part of a group called the Beatles that were international super stars. That group was started in 57(got big in the early 60s). The first protest wasn't in the states but happened in 61. This was the time disparity I was speaking about. Spearheading is just not the statement I would use with him. He had a lot of ears, he believed in something they listened because they respected him as a musician.

Was Lennon against the war? YES! However you seem to think he did more. He sponsored 12 billboards and spoke out about it in the 70s. Everyone does, he was famous, believed in something most people agreed with.

I do believe in standing up for something you believe in. I do, but like I said Riots for me are a demonstration. When you get towards physical violence it is past protest for me. It is a demonstration of what we are capable of doing to control the "authorities". The Riot in '92(happened all over the country), was a perfect display of what the people are capable of.

Ok I tell my opinions to everyone if that is the case. I am a hypocrite. I will secede to you if you feel that necessary.

I understand that Vietnam didn't matter to US security. That wasn't necessarily what I was referring to when I said someone fought for me to be more comfortable. I am talking about the people like Chavez who fought for the rights of the workers. MLK who fought for the rights of minorities. Lincoln who fought against slavery(there is a lot to this I will leave out). The Zoot Suiters who fought for the rights of the Hispanic population in WWII. Hell even the person who fought to build my high school as a kid(my HS was built my freshmen year). My parents who fought through life to feed me, shelter me, and cloth me. These are the people who fought for us.

It takes balls to stand up for what you believe in, but it takes even more balls to fight for what you believe in. Most of those people holding signs aren't fighting as you see it. Riots now that is fighting for something. Everyone has stood up to the bully at one point, but fighting the bully is when you get his respect. This is the difference to me between holding a sign and getting involved in the legal system to fight for say gay rights. The people putting it on the books(or trying to) are the ones helping the most. The sign holders are essential but they are not the most effective part of a protest.

Apples and Oranges? Really? The point was about the general concept of the war. The question really becomes do/did we need to be in Iraq, or Afghanistan? Nope(especially now). Just like Vietnam. We are fighting for someone's rights but we are also fighting for something for us(just like Vietnam). 9-11 would have never happened if we kept our nose out their business plain and simple.

It is estimated nearly 1.5 million Middle Easterners have been killed(since '03). In Vietnam it is estimated over 3 million Vietnamese total were killed. Around 60,000 Americans were killed(only 4400 right now which is why it hasn't got out of hand). 300 thousand wounded(total wounded estimated over 100,000). The numbers are climbing slowly and steadily, and if we don't wake up we will have killed more people there then in Vietnam.

I am not for war, keep this in mind. I am never for war. We have handled this situation terribly, it is a part of human nature to do things wrong before we do things right. The problem is hindsight as stated so many times is 20/20.

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Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

We've come to something resembling agreement on a number of points. Below are the ones where we haven't. They are mostly about standing up and being recognized, rather than keeping one's opinions to oneself. Also about where historical change comes from.
Facing ostracization is a form of fighting.
No, because they can't get laws passed without popular support. You minimize the importance of the ground troops, the grunts, thinking that only Generals make a contribution. A political mobilizer is someone who gets other people to carry signs. Demonstrations don't usually just happen, people usually organize them.
Hindsight says we didn't need to be in Iraq.

Hindsight also suggests that US security improved by damaging the Taliban and Al Qaeda. However, we didn't finish the job. However, we haven't had another 9/11. Many operations remain in shadow, it is not an open war. How do we really know what is effective and what isn't? Are we quietly winning, or quietly doing irrelevant things?
Key differences are: military technology is much better now, an opposing superpower was not supplying Iraq, Iraq was diplomatically isolated, there was no draft, the body count amongst our soldiers was a fraction of the Vietnam body count, the regime was toppled, the troops have mostly come home, and it doesn't look like the nascent democracy in Iraq is going to collapse. That sort of looks like a victory, except that it ain't over yet, and it was obtained under false pretenses.
There was nothing plain and simple about the Cold War, or the dividends of peace that followed its end. The USA and the USSR were not keeping the Muslim radicals in line anymore, and their counterintelligence posture was greatly diminished. Thus the Muslim radicals were free to act.

Being Ostracized has nothing to do with fighting for yourself. My bully statement works once again. A person being ostracized everyday at school isn't fighting back or it doesn't mean it anyways.

Raising awareness is necessary, how many times do you want me to say that. It isn't the most effective way to win. Holding a sign at the super bowl won't make your team win. You need to come to action. You need to do something about it. You need to demonstrate your ability to effect them otherwise you are just a nuisance.

I am going to tell you a personal story.

I am from Southern California, my Mom use to work for a grocery store, during the 2003 strike there were sign holders. You want to know the most effective part of their actions? It was them vandalizing. Cutting the power to the store. Slicing the load trucks tires. Popping off a wheel on all the shopping carts. The ridicule they gave people when they went shopping at a scab grocery store.

Where they held their signs was very effective, ridiculing and embarrassing people(social proof) when they would enter a store that was no longer helping pay peoples bills. Holding the sign and raising awareness was necessary and incredibly essential(don't know how many times you would like me to repeat this), power lies in numbers. What you need to realize is that it does nothing when it comes to getting shit done.

I will go even further, even after all that wide support from the grocery union, teamsters union, and every other union in southern California they still didn't get everything they wanted. So all that support, all that sign holding, didn't help get that negotiation handled. Still took ten months and millions of dollars in damage and even more millions in lost sales to convince them to give up half the stuff they did. In fact they had millions of supporters and still couldn't get everything that they wanted.

Support is essential but it doesn't get the deal signed. I seem to down play the need for popularity, it is not what I mean, united we stand, divided we fall. The problem with this is it doesn't get the job done. Say all you want about me only believing in generals, the foot soldiers are necessary. If you want to be a foot soldier go ahead. Being a leader is hard so I understand your refusal to believe in it, there is a reason there are few leaders in this world. It is very very hard to be a leader. IE It was the most difficult thing Truman ever did(he hated it), deciding to drop the atomic bomb, then it hurt him even more dropping it the second bomb. Leaders do what others are unwilling to.

Note: My Mom was given an 80K job for her LEADERSHIP in the strike. To put this in perspective, my Mom isn't even a HS graduate, a lot of money for someone out a grocery store. They wanted her as a rep because she was a leader amongst the protesters. Her and 1 other person that was it. My Mom now helps represent over 27,000 members. See the difference between a sign holder and a leader now? You make a bigger difference.

You think the increase in security was a good thing? I don't, not at all. How could it be? A country where we don't trust people? Weren't we innocent until proven guilty? The fact that we pissed off enough people that we have to do this says a lot about us. This is the big picture you are missing. Why the hell should we have to worry about it? Every other country in the world doesn't have this PROBLEM. Only we do. What does that say?

You put a higher value on American lives then Middle Eastern. This again is a problem. How can you not see that? Oh we only lost 4400. There were over 1 million Middle Easterners killed and all you see is 4400 Americans. This is a conversation that is not going anywhere because of our difference in ethics. A lot of those people were innocent civilians.

Seriously why do you think the free radicals were pissed? You keep playing it off as if we are victims. We are villains. Not victims. We went over there trained them and pissed them off, after that we left them. We created this monster. Do I think that the free radicals should have went that far? No, but we knew the type of people we were dealing with.

You act as if this was going to happen regardless, it wasn't, always look to see what motivates people to make such an astounding statement. This is the same way I feel about all the school shootings, what motivates someone to act out like that? You need to ask why things happen once in a while, there is a catalyst for every action, and an especially large one for an action of this magnitude.

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Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

Bvanery,
This conversation is great and I want to continue it, however I'd prefer we start messaging each other. This took the thread way way off track.

_________________
Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

by creating a sense of self like this, a self assessed view of who you are, is this not giving yourself an ego which in turn can be shaken?

e.g you gain confidence because you believe yourself to be 'X' and someone makes a pun about you being the opposite of 'X', this is taking a dig at your ego, and in turn your confidence. because the two are now dependant on each other and this is who YOU believe yourself to be, when contradicted you automatically defend your perception of yourself.

on a more physical basis, your looks can give you confidence, as these inevitably fade with time, so would your confidence.

just some thoughts.

Nice perspective....

All of this stuff should be in addition to your willingness to approach girls(people), activities, etc. This shouldn't be where you get all of your confidence, you should gain confidence through multiple avenues. So yeah this is a nice start, but I expect everyone to go out and gain confidence through other means as well.

I don't gain value(especially negative) from anyone else but myself(though I do certainly appreciate compliments and enjoy getting them, it's nice to add to the notebook).

If you go around thinking "I am the Man", why would one person effect your confidence that much? How can you sit there and say "oh my, I thought I was The Man, but that guy said I am not."? One person in over 6 billion and you are using their opinion to gauge yourself?

You should realize while you gain your "social value" from the world, you gain your own value from yourself. If you don't learn to value yourself how can you allow anyone else to value you? If you are going to value everyone else's opinion of yourself over your own then you will never ever enjoy your life.

On the other hand, it is good to be aware of someone else's opinion so that you can take this as an opportunity to improve yourself, but don't let others opinions of you override your own opinion. Take it as a critique(if it is possible), but nothing more. If they are just some asshole then who cares.

Realize this now: People don't criticize you as a person, more often then not they criticize your behavior. We always take things so personally, we need to change is our behavior. In rare cases when it is related to aesthetics or whatever it may be harder to overcome, but as guys we have a distinct advantage good looks are only a part of the equation for selecting a good mate for a women.

It took me a long time to realize that someone else's opinion of me doesn't matter. Only my own does, having support for validation is great but the only one who can make you confident is you. You can have girls say your smart, handsome, funny, awesome, whatever but you derive your confidence from your opinion of yourself. I had girls say I was great, cute, awesome, funny, etc., but I still wasn't confident, the only person who could make me confident was myself.

You gain your "social value" from everyone else. Which is important but it shouldn't effect how you feel about yourself.


Dealing with Insults

Any time someone insults me, I let them know that it ain't a big deal. I expand on their insults so they realize I just think it's funny. Keep in mind these are just off the top of my head. Examples:

A person who walks up and says "your an idiot", my response "well I did put on two left shoes this morning."

A person may walk up and start saying "Your fat"(I'm heavy set), I look at them and say "but at least I am jolly."

A person may say "You are pussy!", "I am what I eat".

Someone walks up and says "You think that's funny, your not funny." I look over and say "Meh! I am still laughing".

Letting someone else's negativity effect your confidence can be a problem no doubt, I personally don't dwell on someone's insult of me. I ride with their insults because their opinion of me doesn't matter to me.

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Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

Whoops I fell off the radar! I think we said enough about politics. The main point I wanted to make, is that expressing your opinions is a good thing, both for yourself and society. I think you proved my point. Now, back to your regularly scheduled PUA.

My Observations and Experiments With Body Language: Looking Confident vs. Looking Timid

I was wondering why some people in crowd stood out. Why you could tell that one person was confident and one wasn't. So lately every where I've been going I've been looking for traits of guys that attracted attention. Guys that seemed to get their attention because of their "aura" or "present".

I already mentioned how to stand. However I want you to go out and pay attention. Those guys that attract attention, see what they do. Pay attention to their stance. I guarantee you will notice a wide stance. Most guys put their arms in a way in which they make themselves bigger. Some on their waste, others cross their arms, at any which rate they seem to have their arms held out wide.

These guys seem to be comfortable taking up a lot of space. I also wanted to pay attention to myself and what I did to gain attention as an attractive mate. I kept looking around. The confident men in the crowd ALWAYS had a wider stance.

They weren't scared to take up extra territory. One of the places I watched this was a ska show, skin heads a plenty(skin heads against racial prejudice, S.H.A.R.P. for short), dominant confident males, the ones who seem to have the most influence over their social group stood with an even wider stance and had wide shoulders.

The timid looking people seem to keep their feet in. The guys who didn't look confident/comfortable would stand with their feet very close. Most had their shoulders lowered in a submissive manner. None of these guys held their head high.

This is something that I knew but didn't realize how simple it was. I mean we all know that is what it means, but feeling what it means is different. When you can look around and say "oh that guy isn't confident" because he stands quiet and timid, that guy has slouched shoulders he isn't confident, etc.

My Experiment

With the timid stance I didn't catch too much attention, people tended to find me quite non-threatening but I didn't get given the space. I tried to keep my shoulders low and look down. Show I was an unconfident guy. It seem to do exactly as I hypothesized. It gave me the reaction I expected. At this point I have to consciously do this behavior. Not smiling fully, looking down doesn't come naturally, etc.

When I switched back to my normal behavior I attracted the attention I was use to. People gave me space, I also got more looks from girls, more respect from the general people in my area, or passing me by.

We all knew how to stand because of how I have spoken about it early on. I just wanted to re-emphasize it because of the importance I noticed it had on a crowd. Go out and stand both ways, see how you feel, see how it effects others in your area, you will notice a huge difference. Make sure to pay attention to what you can do to add a body language presence to yourself. Pay very close attention to those instructions on how to look "alpha" or confident and this alone will gain you plenty of attention.

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Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

this is one amazing post dude . two problems i have thoght is 1st i dont know how much eye contact is right because when i look someone in the eye girl or boy i try not to look away and it feels kinda creepy 2nd is the whole humour / teasing bit im ok at it but im not 100% sure with my abillites there . as in i dont know what i shold be looking to tease on or like the trick to being funny sorry about how long this is .
hope this brill topic continues thanks alot

Eye Contact

When you make eye contact make sure to smile, that is huge. Smiling will change the message a lot. If you are looking at someone even if you are neutral an intense stare can make people feel uncomfortable.

If you need you can shake your head in affirmation as you are listening. This will make both of you feel better. You shouldn't be staring at them, you want to pay close attention but you need to draw the line at the blank stare.

You should give people about 40-50% eye contact in good conversations (which is a lot) accept with girls during obvious moments looking away could be damaging in those situations. Just remember how your body language is used influences the looks influences on the situations. If you are smiling they will be happier then if you are scowling obviously.

Humor

Humor is a little more difficult but my message is the same, say things in a way so they realize you are joking and not a douche. I've said a lot of crazy things to people but I tend to have a certain style that does not make me seem as if I am an asshole.

I tend to shy away from commenting style (clothes/accessories/shoes) and looks. Girls spend a lot of time carefully putting themselves together and while the occasional statement is fine until you figure out the proper tone limit the amount of statements you make to goofy actions or body language she may do. Just comment on some of her behavior which is always acceptable as long as you hold a tone that isn't overly serious.

The trick to being funny is being spontaneous, something unexpected. A lot of comedians use unique outlooks or perspectives on things to give you something unexpected. Sometimes it is merely in how they say it, perhaps an odd comparison that somehow makes sense other times it is how it was said, or maybe an unexpected ending.

How You Say It

Instead of saying "man that was terrible, it sucked" you could say "that was a disappointing experience and I am not at all impressed with the results." Obviously one makes you look smarter, but it gives you and unexpected zest that holds humor. A lot of this stuff is dependent on tone as well.

Odd Comparison

Sometimes you may think of something that is odd but certainly comparable. Perhaps someone says something. In this case you may hear an insult like "you are an asshole", you may say something like "if you mean you I am the odd necessity you need in your life". Spoke the truth in a weird manner, just an odd comparison.

A Different Perspective

There is a pretty funny stand up, I don't remember who it was or the name of the guy. I think it was made in the early thousands. He took a different perspective on marriage. He says something referring to women having all the rights in marriage it was something like "It doesn't matter if you bought the house, paid all the cash, bought it before you married her, this is her house and she is just letting you stay as long as the marriage works out". He took a different perspective on marriage and it was true which made it even funnier. There was a lot more to the stand up but that was a good line.

The Unexpected Ending

Somebody may tell you a story and it may have an unexpected ending. This happens all the time. Maybe you went and did something that ended up an adventure with unexpected events, all the way to an outstanding ending. Drunken adventures with friends often end with some unexpected experiences through out it to making it funny, ending will be the punchline.

These are just a few thoughts on humor. You should read a book or look for a video. I have some natural humor to me so I never had to try.

Just make sure you realize you will offend people here and there all you can do is be apologetic and let them know you were joking. It's not to difficult to smooth things over if you do. You can path up the times you offend somebody with some "public relations work". Do what you can to make sure you limit criticizing a women to her behavior and this should lower the chances of you offending them with the correct tone and body language.

I tend to make fun of myself a lot, this way it doesn't offend anyone. Seriously over exaggerating bad things or good things can be funny (don't sound arrogant). Just a side bar to what you can do. It shows confidence. It also shows humility something that can make you seem down to earth.

Just go grab a book, it will help a lot more then I did with this post. Ask some more about this, I think I gave you a loose answer even though it is a long answer.

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thanks poetic thats helped alot .with eye contact i practised a bit today on the amount of time i also read a bit on internet like it talks about how you should smile n such but it also said that you should not stare or make eye contact for more than 5-6 seconds at a time , how do you look away as not to be submissive if that makes any sense
also with the humour /teasing i read one of your other posts taalking about how tone and body language is key to humour that helped . what kind of tone should you be sounding like i think i understand the body lnguage ( freindly smiling etc) .
and read some books like you said can you recommend any ?

dude really thanks again ive still got a long way with this humour/teasing stuff but im getting there

Wow! Great thread man, I truly appreciate the time you put into this whole thing. I am in high school and i am already known as a "cool" guy and am pretty popular but i will definitely use what you have written to make sure everyone has a great perspective of me. You are "The Man"

Sorry it took so long. Things go busy the last few days.

You are not looking down just glance at something else for a moment, don't look down or move your head down. You can even turn your head to the right to show you are listening intently. You could look over at something and then look back. If you need you can just move your eyes to another part of their body and then look back to their eyes(I am suggesting arms or clothes not boobs or ass.) Just don't act as if you are looking away from them, just look at something different and then back. Don't let you avoid making contact so much as looking over at something. 5-6 seconds straight can seem long but the key is the break, but it isn't with a smile.

I think the conversation is the only thing that limits or expands the amount of eye contact, if your in a conversation with a girl in an intimate situation 5-6 seconds won't seem as long. If you are having a passionate conversation about anything you'll likely make stronger eye contact. If you are listening to someone talk about calculus and you are not interested it will seem very difficult to listen for 5-6 seconds.

Humor with body language is merely a disagreement with your words. You could be saying yes I will do something with your body language but say no aloud using words. Or vice versa. The point is to have contradictory body language to your verbal message. So it looks funny. "I hate you" with a huge smile is different then with an angry look. You will see this pop up through out a lot of comedies and stand ups.

I don't know any books, go on amazon look for a highly rated book. Then buy it or go to the book store and find it. Make sure to read some reviews if you go this route. There are some fake reviews put on for marketing purposes.

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thanks for the info man