I just picked up HB8.5 last weekend in a mall. I usually do day-time pick ups. I used direct approach and number closed her. This all happened on Saturday morning. Before leaving, I told her that I will be calling her. She told me during pick up convo that she just graduated from a college and moved here a few days back. Anyways, I called her up the same evening. I put a time constraint like I gotta go in a minute and wanted to check wat she is upto ? I kept the convo cocky and funny. It lasted for three to five minutes and then I ended it up since I was busy and supposed to meet some friends on Saturday night. On Sunday afternoon, I texted her with flirty and funny texts. She responded instantly after my texts and I always waited for 10-15 min before sending my replies. We exchanged four texts. She told me abt wat she is doing and she replied in one of her texts that " hahaha u r full of jokes". I called her on sunday evening but she didnt pick up my phone. So i left a voice message and after 30 mins I texted her in which I wished her luck for first day at work and also flirted that she should make enough money to support both of us. But she didn't reply my call or this text. Usually she responds instantly. On Monday afternoon, I again texted her in a funny way. She replied instantly like I m fun and also she told me blah blah abt her work and that she has assignments to work on. I passed funny remark abt her workplace and then told her to finish the work and call me sometime in last text. She didnt reply to my last text. This all took exchange of three texts from each of us.
She didnt call me back the monday evening. I thought she might since how much time assignments can take? Anyways I analyzed my game and decided to Freeze-out for a couple of day. Tuesday and Wednesday (today) have been totally Frozen out by me. But no text/call from her as yet. I was thinking that she might be very concerned about her new job and work as compared to seeing a guy in a new place .
I need your help and suggestion on my strategy. I want to setup my first date with her and F-close her or at least Kiss-close her. Should I continue the freeze-out ? How should I re-engage her and Should I ask her a good time to call and then setup a date?

First off RELAX. You have game, clearly. Good. Now you have to ease up. The freeze out was such a great idea. It has made you look at least somewhat as a busy person. Texting or calling everyday gives the girl a feeling that you are a loser who has nothing better to do with his time. Think about it, once you have more women in your life, you will definately not be calling/texting everyday--there are just not enough hours in the day.

What you are doing is investing too much into her by your constant initiations. You have survived because you know how to make your interactions fun and playful--which is great!
You must give her some time. Then make sure you make the next interaction with her (i suggest a phone call) is intriguing and make it a goal to set-up a date. Simply get her attention with text or whatever and call her. You have to make her invest in you so that she will want to respond to you. Until you know how to do this, you will notice that you will initiate the interactions and will be left without responses sometimes (with other girls too).

I will give you examples of investments: lead conversations to serious (but interesting) topics whereby she gives you personal information; make her do things for you (like wait awake for you to call her or leave friends to talk to you or show her something interesting and then have her show you something weird about her); take her on a date (whereby she is giving you her time).

The main issue with investment is that you have to start small (like first you text her and she responds then it leads to the ultimate investment for females which is sex where you win). It is all a give-and-take game where you cant give too much or you are needy and unattractive, but you cant take too much or you are abusive.

Hope i helped...

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Hey Lorenzo321 ! Thanks for the great reply and pinpointing my sticking point. I need to learn/know how to make her invest in me and i would appreciate any pointers/suggestions on that from you.
You wrote "I will give you examples of investments: lead conversations to serious (but interesting) topics whereby she gives you personal information; make her do things for you (like wait awake for you to call her or leave friends to talk to you or show her something interesting and then have her show you something weird about her); take her on a date (whereby she is giving you her time)."

At early stages, I think its all abt conversations. Making her things do for me might require a date so that there is more comfort and emotional connection. You mentioned about leading conversations to serious (but interesting) topics whereby she gives you personal information. Can you give me some examples of such topics and conversations in that regard? I know push-pull and teasing game but I really want a good grip in this investment thing. Any pointers and examples?

Definitely dude, I will be your "Knight_gt" in Shining Armor, lol. This is long but well worth it ...

Investment is very important dude as you are aware. I’m glad that you are also aware that there are levels of investments that require more from the TGT than you can get right from the beginning.

Because you seem to know how to have good conversation, let’s start there. I am not sure if you ever tried this, but have a conversation with a stranger. Start with chit-chat and whatever opener you want, and then say something personal about yourself (like you had sex in an Old Navy story). Make sure what you say is interesting to the point that she is unaware of the privacy issue here (people do not say personal things about themselves to people they don’t know well, it’s taboo--but you can use that to your advantage). It is an advantage because if you know how to do this, women backwards rationalize the crazy statements that they say to you as they feel comfortable with and attraction to you. Even if they do not have personal comments to say about themselves, as long as you are cool and confident, they grow affection to you because they see themselves as important to you.

Let me give you an example, I start by saying that sadly some people are not adventurous, blah blah, and raise interest in a crazy experience I had with an ex-girlfriend. I tell the TGT that I did not want my sex life to become boring like so many people let happen, so I spontaneously took my girl shopping and surreptitiously fucked her in an Old Navy dressing room. (You got to get into details with a story like this or it is not going to have the same effect. For instance, I say how my heart was pounding full of adrenaline because the sales associate was right outside, and I had my girl biting my finger so that she did not moan loudly.)

Then I turn the conversation to the TGT. I do not expect much from her, but I challenge her by saying something like I bet you have some awesome stories yourself unless you are too innocent that you can’t handle me. Once you have built enough conversation with her (you hooked her), she will reciprocate with interesting things that have occurred to her; she must, because you have shown your vulnerabilities by opening up to her. If she says nothing fun has happened to her, you will notice her guinune reply, and that is a good sign because admitting that nothing like this has happened to her is personal information.

This all has to do with Frame and State Control, where you are in-control of the dynamics and you mimic and then change her state. Notice how you feel sad for a person who is crying in front of you. If you were to console that person, you can’t be a happy person because it is incongruent with the situation. That person is making you invest in their misery, just the same way as others invest in people who are having fun. It is amazing the statements you can get from a person you just met by using this tactic of being bold yourself. Interestingly, when you leave that person, you will notice that you have created a bond.
Pointers:
*Make sure that you take an interest in WHAT she has to say so that you don’t sound like a person who only wants to talk about himself.
*Be unapologetic about the statements that you are making.
*Just make sure that when you are doing these things you are positive and happy with smiles and shit.
*Don’t take what you are saying too seriously or it will come off bad.
*If you are normal and cool, she will be normal and cool--no matter the crazy statements that come out of your mouth...

I agree with you that you require a date and physical proximity to be able to execute higher levels of investments. I am not sure if you know, but think about a person that you care about so dearly that you would kill or die for. I was like this with my ex-girl. That was because she did things for me and I would do them for her to the point that anything was possible.

In the beginning of a relationship, you want to have her do small things. Start with conversational investment, whereby you show her how awesome a person you are and give her the opportunity to show who she is--that will create a feeling of intrigue in her that she will WANT to go out with you (when she meets up with you that is a big investment). Continue having good and fun conversations during your date with actions where she is investing in you (you must also invest in her so that she notices the reciprocity).

Let me give you some examples from small to bigger: I have them hold my coat or drink while I use the bathroom; I Kino them showing a level of compliance and comfort to me; after some time, I stop phone usage agreeing that I will not use my phone if she does not use her's (I explain it as I want to enjoy the moment with her without interruptions when with her); I lead the date as I want it to go having her say yes to all I want (simple things like what I want to eat or which movie to see etc.).

After some time, you will be associated with value and fun, causing her to put her friends aside any time you call or want to meet up with her. An important point to add here is that you need to give her space and make yourself busy (and your time with her scarce) so that whenever you do see her, she values it even more. Of course, at some time you will have sex with her and that is (I consider) the ultimate investment from her to you--that is when you win and she is your’s. Enough of this and she will fall in love with you.

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It's pretty clear to me, the vibe I get reading it, is that you did well with your "cocky funny time constraint etc. etc." tricks in the start to generate a spark, which is great, and what girls want, but once the spark is GENERATED, you don't need to keep doing those things. If you do, you start to come across as shallow. The moment she said "lol your full of jokes" is when I felt she was starting to ask "is this all this guy does?" now it's time to start having interesting conversations about stuff you both like to do...

The spark is generated, now it's time to see if you have anything in common. See if it's worth pursuing. That's the procedure, she's expecting, and you kept dancing around like a monkey and she feels like you're just doing all these things to get her into bed instead of getting to know her as a real person.

You probably had your chances to actually start a good conversation with her and you kept doing your usual tricks.

So now, maybe after some time has gone, you're gonna have to get her attention in a way that isn't too far in either direction - not still cocky funny like before, but not wussy "hey I really want to get to know you" because you don't want to sound remorseful. Just busy. So you're going to have to come up with something that lets her know you're done with the dancing around and want to get to know her, but in a fun way.


Also you can't "freeze out" someone who's not interested in you. Sometimes people use that word to make themselves feel like they're in control when they're not. On the plus side, it's probably worked to your advantage to make it seem like you have other stuff going on and give her a break from the dancing monkey, so some time passes before you come around and, maybe just a LITTLE remorsefully, suggest hanging out some time (but in a fun way)

Lorenzo321 and Conker ! Guys thanks for the great replies as I am learning a lot from them. However I have a few points in my mind where I need your help.

@Lorenzo321.
That Old Navy Store story is perfect but I think it might be too good for her at this stage since she might think that I am sexually escalating very early. Can you mention some more topics or examples?
You said and I quote "Start with conversational investment, whereby you show her how awesome a person you are and give her the opportunity to show who she is--that will create a feeling of intrigue in her that she will WANT to go out with you".
Thats exactly my sticking point and thanks for finding it for me. I would appreciate if you can throw in some more examples to build conversational investment.

@Conker

Yeah, that dancing monkey thing kinda make sense to me. But as Lorenzo321 pointed out that I could not get conversational investment from her. As a result I could not start a good conversation with her and ended up like a clown. Can throw some light with examples on it that how to tailor the conversation so she gets the sense that I want to know her and and start actual conversation ?

You said and I quote "So now, maybe after some time has gone, you're gonna have to get her attention in a way that isn't too far in either direction - not still cocky funny like before, but not wussy "hey I really want to get to know you" because you don't want to sound remorseful. Just busy. So you're going to have to come up with something that lets her know you're done with the dancing around and want to get to know her, but in a fun way. "

Would you please suggest some thing here like a few example statements ? I was thinking abt re-engaging with " sssh stop thinking abt me. my ears are buzzing"
she would reply with something and then I can ask her like tell me three things about her which just pop into her mind. From there on, I ll just go. What do you think?

No that is still "gameing" and not actual conversation. "Shh stop thinking about me" I can tell that's a line you've read, and that's ok, cause if it was at the right time, eg. when you know she's infatuated with you and wondering if you'll call - perfect. Even if she knows it's a line she'd love it.

But that's not what's happening right now. If she's not responding to messages or returning calls, for a while now, that kind of joke isn't going to come off well.

If you call, and get straight through - that's all you need. Your tone of voice will tell her you want to get to know her, when you start asking how her day has been, what she does for a living, maybe what's going on on the weekend, whatever. Look for conversation threads to pick up on - after (of course) checking if it's a bad time to call or not.

My advice is to just call her in the evenings about 8pm (after dinner when she's not likely to be doing anything) but not friday or saturday. But sunday in the middle of the day is a good idea too.

Give a few days in between each call. She's gonna see the missed calls, and even if she innocently forgets to get back to you, she will remember there already was one missed call or 2 - so if you call more than that, she's gonna wonder why you're so persistent. Which is bad, if you don't have a good reason to be, in my experience.

Just look for conversation threads and be genuinely interested. I can tell from experience, sometimes you try really hard to find something to talk about, and it's clear neither of you have much in common, and the general conversation isn't gelling well either. When you have one or the other, things go pretty well. When you have both, things are going exceptionally well. So just look for that.

You can be a little bit crafty, and make a fake story, or bring up a topic, that leads down a certain path so you can ask a question like "Do you like being single?" Sometimes I tell them something as if it's happening right now but it's just something that I remembered happening in the past and is a good conversation starter. (these days there's often enough going on that I can just pick something to talk about) I can't tell you anything specific. Sometimes I will get onto a topic such as overly-jealous boyfriends, wtf is up with that. What would you do if your guy was talking with another girl? Etc.

ask questions, that's the key - look for ways in the current conversation topic to ask them questions. Examples of good questions are "what's the best/worst [insert topic] you ever had?" "What would you do if [insert topic]" etc. etc.

Those topics about what you want, what you'd do in certain relationships, those are really involved topics where both of you reveal a lot about each other. I believe it's important to have those early on, you either find out you aren't going to get along, or you form a foundation that feels like you really will get along. Then AFTER that, you may find conversation naturally goes into more mundane lighthearted things more easily.

Conker....thanks again for the detailed replies. Every reply from you guys is important as I am learning a lot from them. Anyways, I tried to understand the points you mentioned and I have come up with following plan. I shall be giving her a call in SUnday afternoon around 3pm (tomorrow). This is how I will be proceeding.

1- Hey, mystery woman what kind of trouble have u been causing lately ? (Seems a nice opener which I found on some forum). Here I will ask her about her weekend too and whether she has adjusted well in new city.

2- I d run a cold read on her about appearances and use it to compliment her about adjusting to new place

3- Then run a DHV story on her which actually happened to me. Its pretty cool since the company she works for offered me a job too. I ll tease her that I didnt accept since she will be all over me at work. Using this frame, I will ask her about any interesting thing which happened to her during her very first week at work.

4- Here I ll change the frame and ask her to share three thing about her that just pop in her mind. here I m trying to get her more open. Watever she tells me here, I ll try to keep the convo going. btw should I neg her a bit here? and how can let the good convo going so she feels positive emotions from me and get hooked

5- Now I m thinking of changing the frame to childhood by telling her about my niece and then sharing a story abt my childhood. I m thinking of running Mytery's routine of childhood love. Then I can control the frame to ask her about her memories of childhood.
if you guys can share some better routine, plz let me know.

6- Now I m thinking of throwing a rapport question for her.For example "I was just wondering, what do you really love doing? Name something that you would do that you find so engrossing that you'd do it, even if you were never paid to do it? ".
Here I ll try to emotionally connect to her.
Again if you guys can tell me of better question/example, please share it.

7- Now I will exit like I gotta go etc. I was thinking that before leaving I should talk about that its not new for me and that my friends likes my company and find me fun (she already admitted that I m full of jokes). But other than fun, I also want to know her as a person since she intrigues me and thats why I picked her in the mall. What do you guys think if this opening up?
Then I ll tell her that I usually call my friends around 8pm since I am usually busy in the daytime so I might be calling her around that time later. Then I will call her with a gap of atleast two days. I wont text her at all between.

SO guys thats all my overall plan and I really want you to critique it and let me know about possible loopholes and also share if you want to replace something with better material.


@Conker....I was thinking of bringing relationship thing but then I though I might be sounding heaving and wussy. So i m leaving that for next call. There I start with some rapport (i know of a movie she really likes) and then do jealous bf thing and also ask her open questions like what is she looking for relationship, worst/best dates etc...here I also ask her out.
I ll post my plan for 2nd call too. But at the moment, I need your suggestion for the above plan?

I don't have plans - I have good ideas, then I file them away and they wait to be used at the right moment.

All those things you read about in PUA material, and things you come up with, are "good ideas" that you just read and then they stay in your memory - it's like learning a language, you keep reading / listening to the material, and then when you need them, the right words come to mind.

If you formulate a step by step plan, it will feel unnatural to her, you will miss important opportunities, and you will freeze up and fail when the plan even goes slightly astray. Real life has a billion outcomes and you're planning for just one path through those billions of possibilities - it aint' gonna happen.

Nothing is bad about any of those ideas you mentioned, I'm not saying DON'T do them, I'm saying don't TRY to shoehorn them in where they're not going to fit. Keep them in mind, write them down if you must, but pick up the phone and be ready to go with whatever happens.

If you feel that uncertain about your ability to have a normal conversation and look for conversation threads to pick up and go with, that you have to make a step by step plan, then you need more "conversation rehearsal". That means day to day life - on public transport, waiting in line, those are great times to strike up a conversation with the prettiest girl there because no one is doing anything anyway.

95% of girls will happily talk in this situation, the extra 5% is to allow for girls who are having a bad day, girls with bad social skills, or girls with just plain something wrong with them. And of those types in the 5%, all but the last one will be polite yet it will be clear she doesn't want to talk. I can only really remember one girl ever that was a bitch outright, and it was probably my bad vibe at the time anyway which triggered her bitch shield.

If you don't find yourself in those situations very much then you can make an effort to actually go out alone to certain places where you can meet girls randomly - eg. farmers markets, night clubs, and do your rehearsal there. I found public transport and street etc. have been good because it's always there, much easier to do it without having to make a big deal about it and specifically go out and do it. So consider changing your lifestyle so that you're out and potentially amongst random girls frequently.

And negging, just like everything else, needs to happen at the right moment. You don't plan to "neg" out of the blue - if she's not deserving of it, it will just come off as plain cruel, no matter how funny it is.

Eg. if you've talked to her for a bit, and identified her as someone that's a little bit full of herself and usually gets what she wants because of her good looks, etc. and needs to be taken down a couple of notches, you can pull out something she said earlier and twist it into a neg. A FUNNY neg, still. In this case it will work cause most guys don't dare do this to HER, and it's funny.

In my case, I find the opportunity to actually neg is quite rare. Most very hot and desirable girls I know are actually really down to earth lovely girls, not full of themselves at all.

Hey conker...good insight ! By the way I called her today (Sunday) around 2pm.

Well she picked up the phone but right from the start she said that I have been crazy busy and I know its Sunday but I have a lot work to do for Monday. I told her that I have been crazy busy myself and its been around a week since our last conversation so I wanted to talk to her. Then I asked her that whats a good time to talk to her. She was like I dont know and I have to go now. So I said alrite then and hung up.

To me it seems like I have FUCKED UP a big time. Do you think that is there any other way that I can redeem the situation? I m guessing that I have lost the battle here

"Not available for some vague amount of time" = "goodbye".
Followed right up with "I have to go now" well that's just nailing the message to the wall... hah.

Yeah put this one behind you - just remember every detail of where you could have done differently so you have it in your mind for next time and hopefully avoid the mistakes.

Also you see what I mean about plans - eg. in this instance if you had all that prepared, you'd be that much more shattered when it went this way, in fact you'd probably have "performed" worse, you'd have been so off guard you'd stutter and in her mind it would be even more fail. So I say, if you took my advice and were prepared for anything, you probably avoided being TOTALLY off guard at least and saved a few points... for whatever. Maybe you run into her in the street or in a club like a year later and she sees a familiar face and is suddenly open to rekindling the interest. Sometimes that happens. That's what you work at "PUA" stuff for, to make the most of opportunities when they arise.

It is truly saddening that this had to happen to you knight. On the bright side, Conker has given you some invaluable information that can truly help you with future seductions.

I am so glad that I read these post because me and Conker share very similar styles.
Knight, you must notice that you have a small window of opportunity to exploit when you begin the seduction of a HB. You must capatalize on it by having her WANT to spend time on (and hopefully with) you (hence my whole argument in favor of having her invest in you).

Conker was giving you similar advice when he stated that you have to get into normal conversation where you both find similarities. By doing that, you both invest in the conversation and intrigue develops in her to want to know more about you--do your PUA stuff while having normal conversation.

I completely agree with Conkers when he states that you cannot have a plan for conversation. Just go with the flow. For the first conversation with a female, I jot down ideas of topics that I find interesting, topics that I know she will find interesting, so that there is no ackward silences on the phone. But just go with the banter, and dont make it into a summary-type-style robotic thing.

I clearly see the error you committed, which was to not capitalize when she was interested. If you would have taken advantage of that time, she would have had time for you. (I'm curious, Conker, on your opinion on my belief that if a woman finds someone worthwhile and interesting, no matter how busy that woman may be, she WILL find time to be with him. I think that women find some men true rarities and will find a way to be with him--even if she has a boyfriend.)

It is so interesting that females WILL make time for you if you are worthwhile. Just work on these things that me and Conker have written for you and you will do just great.

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The only women who truly are so busy that they might find it hard to make time for a guy they kinda like, very obviously have an unusual workload - eg. Running own business, job like fligh attendant that takes them all over the place.

Every othe time, if she's been "busy" it means she's too busy for "you". But you can and should always confirm this with a polite request such as "when is a good time for you?" if there was any chance she needs to realise she'll lose you, that will be it.

So other than all that, if you're just being the most attractive you can be, yes she will want to spend time with you and make time. When she does you better respect that.