The cultivation of spiritual/mental discipline isn't necessarily found in endurance or rigidity. Some people are simply scatter brains. This, however, doesn't disqualify their growth. Lu Dongbin (see Taoist immortals) was a drunk and a PUA in his own regard. Yet he advocated growth thru feelings of discomfort. Does this make you nervous? Scared? Anxious? Are you afraid to try it? The push is where you learn something, not the horse stance.
This is a false choice. Everyone has something to teach you. In The Game, Strauss draws a line in the sand against Tyler Durden and RSD. These two schools of thought are palpable when visiting their respective sites, and yes their students are reflective of the teacher, but it doesn't mean there's not a good lesson to be learned with each. In this way it is the student, and not the teacher, who holds the responsibility to decipher between what they know to be relevant and what they don't want. You may be the world's greatest teacher, but if you only have a class of morons, then your lessons will also be dull.
Here you prove Fin's point for him. You've clearly seen MMA as a threat to the moral/cultural underpinnings of your foundations in TMA. This is a problem with your view, not the schools of MMA. If you have the right mindset, then it doesn't matter if you're a boxer, a rugby player, or a Huashan ascetic.

While I think you've got a lot of good stuff going on upstairs, Zac, you should take these learnings with a grain of humility. Not knowing you from Adam, my first impression is to say that you sound very young. Having checked off a lot of these boxes when I was about 20, I can safely say that it was my own arrogance that prevented me from seeing the wisdom of everything around me, and not just my newly-minted sense of spiritual identity. Don't make this mistake. Share, don't preach. Fin's POV is absolutely relevant and respectable and HIS. The harder you push against his interpretation, the further into definition you wander. It is definition which causes this tension, and in the idea of spiritual and "inner game" fluidity, definition and projection will only set you back.

You two should move off this pissing contest and let Zac get back to charting his journey.

Ya..sametime I hope you understand most Taoist even the one you stated didn't get to the point of saying that without working out physically...One can do what you say and I do stress that- same time, some things just need to get out via physical means. "Some people being scatter brain" means..thats something they gotta work on, same thing with people being rigid-->they gotta be more scattered brain.

Now...not everyone HAS to do physical things for that, however- its one of the easiest ways to train the mental aspects, especially these days with people being not connected to their body at all. Back in Lu Dongbin's day...you physically needed to do things to live--> we don't have that perk anymore.

True, that said I never said that there were never any lessons to be learned with each (you just made an assumption)--> I learn more and more everyday that everything is ultimately the same in the type of work I do, just a different context. Meaning..learn from everyone. Further you made my next pt, the student is the teacher also. Both teach each other--> remember a teacher is always a student. As of world's greatest teacher..true and false; it is the students responsibility as much as the teachers. That said on the student..if you can't empty your cup why bother? Empty your cup with everyone. As of the lessons being dull...if that gets it across to them sure! Do whatever works...why? Cause you chose your students. Meaning you take on that responsibility to teach them.

Actually no I don't find it a threat...I'm happy to discuss this with people via PM, its just not suitable for the forums. For the aim of this thread though there are things I know Fin is missing in his interpretation, that is fine. I pretty much agree on everything you 2 say- only thing I disagree is that one part I ain't saying, cause again..unsuitable to the forum, + I would want to screen people before I give that information. What you say of mindset is only partial...there are many other aspects. (Which is the thing I'm mostly negating here cause I choose not to openly talk about it here- so its only half the information I could give.)
Yes..your correct, and I am always aware of it. I don't preach though- the point of this thread was to share. And no..I do get where Fin is coming from and agree- in no way am I pushing my interpretation on him...I'm just telling him numerously in different ways- what your thinking isn't just that...theres more (though he keeps saying well x and that). You gotta understand in my POV...TMA ARE MMA- the MMA I talk of in this context is your punching a bag and just sparring (similar to UFC)(And yes I'm aware its stereotypical..however thats basically where most people are coming from- though there are always exceptions). TMA has a couple more aspects MMA has dropped cause their "spiritual" and not practical. If you want to call that resistant to a point where I could say..look I don't care, cause its his thing fine. I could easily just stop posting and ignore his stuff..however for his own growth I keep replying. In no way am I trying force my view down his throat, I'm fine keeping his, he just keeps asking me for my full one which I can't give publicly cause of its content.

And I do appreciate the warning...my teachers kick my ass about it almost everyday. So I'm more than aware. Good reminder though.

Assertion of ideas and the discussion of them are different things. Push and pull, give and take. There's never a reason to overly assert your "correctness" over others unless you're speaking directly of hard facts. No one will dispute that the sun is bright, yet they might disagree on the color.

People who are scatter brains aren't wrong. It might not even be something they have to "work" on. Taoists don't believe you have to "correct" yourself -- although this is an often misinterpreted idea of of the internal alchemy -- they simply understand the passiveness of understanding and humbleness.

Keep on with your lessons. Self discovery is an amazing thing when you've hit the road you were meant to travel.

I've taken it as a discussion mostly that just keeps repeating itself. As of that correctness well...I know its a fact he's missing the one piece that I can't talk of publicly in this forum (which I indirectly have aimed to put by saying...do take TMA (why cause it does cover it...)- whether he believe it or not is a different question. However...its a law basically thats been agreed on by different cultures/societies and is pretty universal. Again not everyone is ready for that kind of information though or is willingly to accept it. (And by that knowledge alone I don't share it often).

Hmm...On the Taoist thing I'll agree and disagree- You don't NEED to be correct, however there is a purification process- so in that is in itself correctness of self- action through inaction. As of scatter brains..no they aren't wrong- same time having one side only is like having one leg. Why not have two?

1. What ethics? What Morals? I've found Ethics and Morals vary from teacher to teacher, and I've only encountered one TMA school that teaches Ethics and Morals; and even that was only taught from a legal POV.

2. That's a sign of a good MMA gym, people working together, polite, courteous and friendly.

3. Again. the sign of a good MMA gym.

4. Hung Gar, Judo, Wing Chun, Wing Tsun, Chan Quan Shu, Shotokan Karate, Kyu-koshin Karate, Escrima, Roman-Greco Wrestling, Tae Kwon Do, Tang soo do, Aikido, Muay Thai.

^^ Are these not traditional martial arts? Becuase I have seen no such philosophy taught in them. I have heard people involved discussing philosophy. But there is no one sitting down with the class and saying. "Today we're going to have a discussion on... "

That being said, if the philosophy is just taught, why bother with the MA? If your after the philosophy part then just read a damn book on the subject and meditate, it would improve your understanding far more.

5. Every teacher, should spar and roll with his students. It helps in two fold ways,

A: Stops Charlatans from progressing. (If a teacher refused to show any of his physical applications in a free flowing context you have an immiediate right to question that teachers liegitimacy if he wants to say he has martial ability.

B: Stamps out egos. The people who only spar with a select few or not at all, ALWAYS have the worst egos. That's a rule of thumb to which I see very few exceptions.

6. Again these are the traits of a good MMA school.

----------------

The only difference between your definition of TMA and MMA is that TMA-ers seem to get extra curricular classes in philosophy. Classes which seem to be very hard to find.

I find that alot of TMAs lost their spirituality when they stoppped sparring and actually working for their art. Alot of MMAers aren't in it for the personal development per say as opposed to the majority of TMAers, however that doesn't mean that they don't get the benefits.

It's something that I'd like to see in the future, more TMA schools meeting up with other schools to train and fight and working MUCH harder than they currently do.

And the MMA schools, continuing their trend of blending TMA into MMA. If both these things come into alignment it won't be long before we won't need such a silly distinction.

I got reminded while talking in chat about a important core concept, so I'll post about it here- since I just about forgot it.

Death

Man thrives in death. What does that mean? Well we've talked about it in previous exercises to a degree. Death is silence. So unless a man is rooted and comfortable in silence- he is not a man. Why?

Every male's deepest fear is of the unknown, death is the representation of it. No one knows what death is unless one ventures into oneself. Being vulnerable is a emotional surrendering-> death. Being rejected is a death socially. Facing your fears internally that your not enough etc. is a psychological, emotional, and even a physical death. As a man we are constantly facing death and our deepest fears are related to it. So embrace it and regain the power of your masculinity.

Now the question is how..well, thats all covered in previous exercises- so this will be not a how to more of a philosophical view- which if you are doing the exercises will be in your life daily building up.

So continuing, if we can establish that men are death then where does life come in?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTQLIVTA008

(Its basically just talking about the internal journey to understand oneself in death- with some other qualities in previous posts)

Life

Well easily, life is the feminine form. Females are chaotic, they are emotions, they are all over, she is chaos and within chaos there is order. So the woman is the ultimate life, the man is the ultimate death. The female who can embrace life to its fullest is the most vibrant one. Hence why the community has females testing guys hardcore (well a woman won't test..she'll change like the gust of wind cause thats her- if she's really in touch of herself- how well a man can be in that, well..thats HIS test, not hers).

So in that a death to a female is not being chaotic, not having that full spectrum of life, the anger, the crying, the joy, the full rainbow. In that she goes UP and DOWN like a roller coaster, to have her flat line like a man- means shes no longer a female. Hence thats why females partying are very energetic, loud etc. I like to dispel that the community has taught boys to be boys, because the above being energetic, high energy, lines, being the center of attention are coming from a female POV- a man wouldn't care about that and delve into himself and into the unknown more.

This is chaos/life

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FXh9UYyHbY

The confusion

So in that..the confusion is girls try to be guys taking control, protective etc. and boys try to be females, being the center of attention, ADD like, worrying about externals etc. What does that mean essentially... easy- both girls and boys ARE NOT IN THEIR NATURAL ELEMENT. Boys are trying be life-like, Girls are trying be more death-like. In that we can conclude their half-assing trying be both- in reality they can't and can, being the way their doing it they can't- however the ultimate goal is that you are both and can go freely between the two & there is a way.

What is that way? Stay to your power element, because thats where you derive everything off of & as soon as you start to go to the other side, you are neither (& not in a good way).

The Unification

Well we've talked about the above death and life. Lets get more indepth about each now in relation to each other. The man is death, he is the vanguard of life- for he is the very essence that which life isn't, so he can protect it from such. (Does that sound familiar from the earlier posts?) However unless he is fully based in such, he is not that- a good example.

Eg) Most of the community advocates that one should get the attention of females, via parlor tricks, group dynamics, lines/routines, certain types of body language, etc. Well lets break it down- why is it even remotely successful, well its because the guy (not man) has took the above & worked some focus into it (a death trait--> in order to have silence one must have focus). Mind you, most of the time he goes for girls who aren't established in thier own power base, so its already mixed on both sides.

A man: He doesn't need to do anything. From doing nothing he does everything- why he has cultivated the "death", "void", "silence" so much facing himself/working his internal crap so much that when he walks in a room, its magnetic to everyone who is life (females in particular however boys count). This magnetic pull is SO strong, that he doesn't have to do anything and the life is drawn to him, cause he is opposite of such, he is SOO grounded in himself/centered. Woman will approach him, there are no questions asked or at least give him signals that she is interested. And all he has to do is walk up, say anything, and make eye contact and its done. Or not even do any of the 3 just said and its done. Cause his presence of "void" is so strong that it blocks everything else out- think a blackhole, no light will escape (no life escapes death). A reaction from a woman would be to BE MORE lifelike in such a presence- thus the dance of life and death starts & finishes the same time. He provides the space for her to surrender into death being so lifelike and she provides the space for him to surrender to life.

Yin and Yang, in the deepest part of darkness there is life, in the deepest part of life there is death. They are also opposite to each other.

Further, if both woman and man cultivate their power in the respective areas, they are bound to know the other side of each by practice. A woman who is SOO full of life, will indeed once so full have a time where she can see death very obviously, making her appreciate her femininity even more and life as well as death. A man who cultivates his silence, void, death to the deep level will naturally see all life fully in all its wonders because he is the complete opposite of such, thus have a greater appreciation for it.

Yin and Yang once at their extreme switch to each other, mutually transforming into each other.

With both having cultivated their respective areas; they will naturally be drawn to each other. (Thus the question, why aren't there any men out there is asked constantly by females- well their not being woman enough- you attract what you are- vice versa for guys)

Yin and Yang are mutually inter-dependent on each other.

Bringing us finally to balance- if a man is not fully in his element and a woman isn't fully in her element. It just isn't going work well, hence why people break up, get nasty with each other, saying that the other person has changed etc. OR why boys/girls can't get into healthy relationships. For if both aren't grounded or at least 1 isn't grounded in their thing (predominately the man isn't) things get bad. Because the man is death- if he can't bring that to the woman, she has nothing to stop the chaos (even if she can do that herself- its not the same) vice versa with the man--> view it as thing, a man is a specialist in death, a woman is specialist in life, though both will get a VERY good grasp of the opposite, they will never fully understand the other side since thats not their natural element. So if a vine overgrows someone doesn't cut it, it'll keep overgrowing & flourishing, getting to out of control. Even if it slows down its growth- its not the same as someone (man) going in and cutting it. And if anyone knows anything about gardening is, if you prune your plants- they grow better than if you never did at all, though they still can flourish without it. So this essential explains why the man is the dominant, and why females are attracted to that. Its very death-like to be dominant (in proper terms) and very life like to surrender (in proper terms) both have thier exceptions in proper context, however generally. All said in this paragraph is...

Mutual consumption of Yin and Yang, they need to balance each other- if 1 goes down, the other needs to balance it, if 1 goes up the other needs to match- if neither happens we got a imbalance or too much of one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVRoj1OZLgU

I'll also add here- this is WHY females generally like foreplay more and why guys want to get straight to the point of sex. Ejaculation in french is petite mort, or small death. Essentially as a guy when you cum, your giving your lifeforce away to the female so you are actaully dieing to make a kid. In that this is also why females complain that guys don't do enough foreplay (even if that isn't touching, however mental included)- cause they work from the OUTSIDE IN. Guys are INSIDE OUT. It takes time to nurture life...its been say 20 yrs for you to even read this..life takes time. Death- its instant, it comes and your dead. It maybe slow decline toward it however the actual incident of it- is sudden.

Theres the difference in mentality of females vs. males, so a Man will understand this and take his sweet time, teasing, doing foreplay etc. to see how much life his choosen woman can take before going to genital/breasts (which in her world is death having so much pleasure). Vice versa a woman will go directly for the goods, then work her way out. This said, there are exceptions however this is the general rule. Further, in knowing this, the man will have to be so comfortable in his death, that he should train himself to know life (meaning take as much foreplay as he can before his partner gets to the goods). In this the man and woman being so based in their element start to merge and become androgynous- and really understand- the other side, cause they understand their side so well.


Lastly, in the void/silence/death for Men there is action- again focus, concentration, in the chaos/life there is inaction. Again extremes are balanced by the counter. This is a general rule, its not absolute, however talk to a female who is very full of life/chaotic when shes around a Man she'll want to surrender and be at peace. Vice versa with a Man, though he is actioned orientated/cultivating the void, he'll want life around him (the woman). In order there is chaos, in chaos there is order.

Well this is a very rough outline..I hope everyone gets something off it- I may add more to this specific topic as I see fit.

How would you suggest one takes these posts and the training they provide? Should you read it all at once or should you just start with the first one and start doing the exercises first?

Great! More massively un-supported generalisations combined with esoteric ramblings. That's exactly what we need on this forum.

Just wanted to post 1 thing since it hit me in the chat.

Stop playing control games, manipulation games, or anything along those mindsets. Eg) She has the power, freeze her out.

Whats wrong with this picture, one is taking external methods instead of seeing the root. For one if she had the power, you gave yours up. Or a better view, both of you never HAD the power in the 1st place- and you just weren't being present with her past your blinders to see the situation. "Freeze her out", why? Cause your so insecure your trying to evoke a reaction?

I'd just say reflect and find out why your reacting the way you are, cause the thinking above is just a reaction instigating a thought which then went into another reaction to "get" even or try to gain something externally without seeing what it was internally.

Which goes into the whole idea of...why are you reacting in the 1st place, why are you needing to go into these power games, why are you trying force your will unto the world instead of working/accepting then redirecting it?

The above example is very common among people in the community sadly, yet if they just looked into themselves- they'd see what really drove those reactions. That said, this can be said about anything really- like "she made me mad, he's a douche- gotta amog, etc." In 95% of circumstances its all your BS and you actually interpret it that way & or made the situation the way it was. In 5% its just something random that happens because people want to project their crap on you- and even then you can take responsibility for yourself.

Food for thought.

great stuff

You have any more? These posts are very interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xerMz8aq ... re=related

Think about it...really really think about it.

interesting post. where do you learn these? i would like to learn more about these.

_________________
Lets Get The Girls.

Its been awhile since I've been here- however I thought I add in something or few things. *shrugs

Over all the topics covered- if you've read them all you can probably see they all patch together. Maybe not exactly portion to portion, probably more like a jig saw puzzle.

One topic I want to talk about is the shadow. Every person has it- there's no denying it. Further..there are a TON of ppl who discuss it- cool, thats fine. I hope to throw a slightly different take on it.

The shadow can be one of your best allies or worst enemies. Yes, its scary going into the dark- the depth of your insecurity, seeing it for what it is. Most people if they even go to that point usual try to "kill" it. That is 1 option, the 2nd option is accepting it recruiting it.

The process on HOW you do it, could take pages to cover- so this is more a philosophical discourse. If you meditate though and do all the exercises that have been written previously- its not a hard jump and you'll most likely "get" it.

Now, that said- lets take a side step and see how this relates to anything in PU. Your shadow is the thing that drove you here, it also most likely has worked itself in various facets of your life. The way you speak, the way you interact, the way you view yourself, the way you view others and many many other things. It most likely has worked itself into your memories and experiences daily.

Understanding that, one can then start analyzing oneself to spot one's shadow. As a shadow is produced in the sunlight or any light for the matter as an antagonist- one needs to see it for what it is. What is it?

It is everything you are. It is everything you deny. It is everything your afraid of and is everything you can be. It is your dreams, it is your nightmares. End of the day, it is the place where your "treasure" is to be dug.

Think about that for a second. Then think it over again.

Now, the funny part about the above is- everyone generally acts in away which tries to tell it to "step off, screw off". They do everything AGAINST it.

Eg) Dude goes into PU why--> 1) Get laid 2) Get more confidence/self esteem 3) Get lots of dates *add in whatever category next

From there the break down goes---> 1) Get laid..why? *list whatever needs or insecurities --> 2) repeat # 1 ... 3) repeat # 2 and 1.

Regardless, you can justify it to whatever you want it to be- end of the day people are driven by the shadow (at least initially).

--

In that understanding, if anyone has done laser tag or anything..when doesn't one have a shadow or a smaller one? Easy...you go into the dark where there is no light. It is at that point you need to dive- for better or worst. I state better or worst since- depending how one handles the experience, you come out "worst' being more afraid etc. OR you come out stronger than you came in initially.

Now there's various ways one can interact with the shadow, if you remember earlier I mentioned to befriend it. Why? Well..its doing something FOR you already, so you just need to change its context. Eg) You get pissed off at yourself and ignore it- however you notice it comes up alot. Now- you can start asking yourself- why do I get pissed off at myself? Whats the "reasoning" behind it. It could be something like- you need to step up for yourself. It could be other reasons, however no matter what it has a reason.

Another way to interact with the shadow is to confront it and "kill" it, but then you gotta ask yourself- if its your fears, dreams etc. and you "kill" it- whats the outcome? Well..you killed it off, so you lost whatever it was hiding. Is that worth it? That is for your own discretion.

So solution, start appreciating it and stop resisting it. Again, the 'how to" are already covered in previous posts. It is by accepting it, working with it, you start understanding yourself better. Note: Notice how this doesn't relate to external at all? But think about how much this DRIVES your external actions. It isn't bad or good, it just IS. However, its your life..so you can CHOOSE to do something about it- for your betterment or peril- since its always there.

*This post is fairly sporadic and maybe edited/ordered/added to later on*

About time I post something in here.

Here are a few thoughts:

The most important part of reading this kind of text is unterstanding the messege comming from the topic starter. To me, this is philosophy, it`ll fit perfectly into a philosophy section on the forum.

Why, you ask?

Because this is something you want to read when you have a desire to stablish some ground rules to yourself, this is where you go to when you need some principles to rule your character. What I`m saying here that Core Values of a Man is a man`s point of view on living life; therefore valid as any other guy would.

Second of all, it is indeed a good topic, I don`t care if there are some general stuff, I might aswell give it my own interpretation of the words.

In life there isn`t black or white, the more I grow old, the more I realize this is a huge grey area.

Personally, I`d like to read more about becoming a real man and less about Fin and lawls arguing about perspectives; all I want to do is open my eyes and learn, focus plays a great part in here.

So that might be a good question: how to regain focus? Can you elaborate on the topic? Is focus a main characteristic of a male?