Poeticlyskuac,

I have to laugh at your assertions about the defintion and meaning of conscious. I attempt to be as self-aware as possible--lots of introspection, analysis, ect. So yes, I tend to be aware of what I am doing and why in most situations. There are exceptions of course, habits that I either can't or haven't bothered to break, or things that I understand differently than the norm (things that appear to be excpetions because they're ascribed with meaning x while I assign them meaning y).

There are also exceptions when talking to superiours or in job interviews--there, a controlled self-presentation is everything. I don't present myself as more capable than I am (a stragety that tends to bite one in the butt anyway--if you say you're fluent in Spanish when you're not, it tends to come out), but I do censure my behaviour when talking to these types of people in a way that I do not when interacting with my peers.


Oh yes, good luck trying to get me to admit anything when you're not listening to me and dispute everything that I say because of it.

In general, that is correct. I'm not saying that I haven't massively miscalculated in the past, and I will likely continue to do so in the future. Intense observation and questioning, however, is able to overcome many things. You simply have to be aware of your own internal dialogue and what leads you to construct it--something that is, in the right circumstances, actually far easier to undercover then you would think.

I have to disagree with you on that.

Shoot for the moon an settle for the stars.

It's funny you write all your opinions as if there facts.

An just remember

You become everything you condemn. You are in fact everything you bitch or complain about. People are just mirrors, your only seeing your self when you see them.

Again irony. I won't listen to you? I have proven my point through different ways. I have proven that courtship is false presentation, that we manipulate how we present ourselves to seem like a more suitable mate(we avoid speaking the truth behind the interaction whether it be sex or relationship are intentions are not stated). Though you disagree because you are apparently the one person who is an exception to this rule in the 1000s of people I have met. I have proven that there are 5 phases through courtship, it is impossible to not include anything I said. I have proven that people change their behavior when involved in a first interaction, you are the one person that doesn't apparently(LOL man). I have even got you to admit you are not you all the time consistent with your behavior(as you stated), that you change your behavior at work/environments. I laugh and joke in interviews and at work because I am me. In other words you are not yourself all the time but ok you are. It's not my fault I have a point while you have an opinion. You are truly proving yourself to be an illogical women, something you seem to pride yourself on avoiding.

I am always aware of my actions. I am always willing to apologize for my actions because often times I say or do things before thoughts. Laugh at my assertion about my meaning of consciousness? Being conscious of your actions simply means you have had censure your behavior. It is simple, I don't ever try to be me. You apparently try to be you, which in reality means you are not being you because you are trying to be someone.

I pride myself on being me, having individuality, and having the ability to effectively communicate. You pride yourself on being conscious of your efforts not to change your behavior. Do you not understand being you is effortless? If you have to put effort in than you are not being you, You are being whatever you want to present yourself as(false I would say but hey) but that certainly isn't you.

Please explain to me how being conscious of being you is being you? In fact why on earth would you need to be conscious of being you if you are you? Why is there effort for you to be you? Are you that caught up in your presentation on who you are? Are you that insecure about people? Let's get to the root of this. Perhaps I am thinking of this from far to much of a logical outlook. How is it everyone else I know doesn't put a conscious effort in to being themselves while you have to?

I am tired of your stubbornness, it is causing you to lie. It is ok to admit your human it is not at all a fault, in fact I consider imperfections to be our perfections it helps define out individuality. You can't act as if you are the one person in the world who doesn't do these things. LOL People have been studied at the beach when they were attracted to a total stranger at the beach they chose to accentuate their feminine/masculine features(shoulders/hips). In other words they chose to represent themselves as a better mate, I would say that straightening your posture for a more youthful and stout look is a false presentation of how you look normally. These were complete strangers, you are no different than humanity. Just admit you are a human and you can be wrong, in this case you are.

_________________
Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

Fuze,

That's a misquote, actually. Shoot for the moon, and you will land among the stars. That only applies when you actually intent to shoot for the moon.

Setting your goals beyond what you can expect to attain is foolish. You'll either never be satisfied with what you can attain, or it isn't really your goal and you're just stating that in order to remind yourself to shoot for higher than thte average.

Of course, full compliance is actually something that you probably could attain, just not with a psychologically healthy and stable person. As per Aristotle, I'd also argue that it is malforming to one's own character to seek thus.

Your other principle is also highly overstated. There is some truth to it, however. Liars see the world as being full of other liars; those who view other people as objects to manipulate and use will see the world as being full of people who also see others as objects to manipulate and use. That does not mean, however, that people cannot through experience learn that the world is not entirely filled with people like them and act accordingly. Honest people can learn that liars exist and learn how to spot them, just like liars can learn that honest people exist and can learn how to spot them. As long as one is observant and willing to learn, there's not reason that the world must be percieved solely as a mirror.

If you were a guy I would say you use your words as a penis extension, it's as if you hide behind your poor communication so you can not be wrong. Serious insecurity issues I believe with each and every post.

actually far easier to undercover then you would think.


Psychology, especially social, demonstrates how we fool ourselves into thinking we understand ourselves. We suck as being aware of internal motivations

I am just going to copy and paste exactly what he said in reference to that specific sentence. Your sentence accentuates his from my stand point your stubbornness proves his point.

_________________
Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

Poeticlyskuac,

You have not proven anything. You state stuff, but where are your sources? Where did that information come from? If you're going to argue in terms of proof, you actually have to provide some. In the case that you're doing, with the levels of courtship and ect., stating isn't enough.

You haven't gotten me to admit anything that I don't already know--we're arguing about relationships, fwb, ect. Work standards don't apply in this instance. I only mentioned it because I value honesty, and whether or not it applies to a certain argument it should be stated.

You entirely miss the nuances of my argument. I argue against misrepresentation of self--not all censuring or behaviour changes fall under this category. Everyone relates to their friends differently than when compared to complete strangers--that doesn't mean that they are misrepresenting themselves. Friends have in jokes and understand one another in ways that mean you can do things with them or act in a certain way that would inapproriate with someone else. My argument is directed solely at misrepresentation of self via dishonesty or manipulation.

People are not 2-D cutouts--generally, there are mutliple different factes of the self. Drawing on one in a particular situation and drawing on a different one in another is also not misrepresnting yourself unless you're drawing a facet that doesn't actually exist or are attempting to unduly obsecure the other parts of your personality.

You have a point, but it's not actually countering my own. You aren't arguing against my position, you just think that you. You aren't disproving anything I have said, you just think that are.

"Being conscious of your actions simply means you have had censure your behavior. It is simple, I don't ever try to be me. You apparently try to be you, which in reality means you are not being you because you are trying to be someone."

That's how you understand it--that is not, however, how I understand the world. I see no reason why your understandings should be considered superiour to my own. Why does being conscious need to imply censureship? If I'm aware that I like someone, that doesn't mean that I'm censuring my actions around them. In fact, I might be aware of the fact that I do like someone because of how I'm acting around them. (This is getting into the Behaviourist school of psychology--do our actions precede and partially create our internal responses, or do our internal thoughts/feelings/whatever create our external responses? In my opinion, in some cases it's the former, in others the latter.)

Why be conscious of being you? So that you know who you actually is. Knee-jerk responses are worthless in terms of determining character unless you actually understand why you're doing them. Do you (general you, not you specifically) bristle when someone supports abortion, or when someone maligns, disagrees, or criticizes your faith? Do you (general you, not you specifically) get frusterated or angry when someone disagrees with you, or feel as though they are entirely in the wrong? (The first question is because those tend to provoke strong reactions, the latter is because is it common.) In an of itself, that means nothing. You need to look at the why.

It is quite common when religion or abortion get involved for people to start shouting and stop either listening or examining their motives. Maybe, in the case of religion, your response is actually because, to you, anyone who disagrees with your faith is a threat. Maybe you're suspicious of their motives, and think that they're subtly poking fun at your faith. Maybe you're afraid that your own standing with whatever deity you believe in will be damaged by getting to know the person, or by otherwise trying to understand their views. You need to be conscious of what you do and why you respond the way that you in order both to know you are and to manage your reactions. For instance, if you're violently homophobic because you secretly fear that gay people may start hitting on or forcing themselves upon you, you should recognize the source of that fear and takes steps to address it (ie. in a safe situation, mention this fear to someone you know who is gay.) If you're violently homophobic because you fear that your only son is gay and he won't carry on the family name, that needs to be addressed diferently. In managing and becoming conscious of the source of these fears, you aren't mispresenting yourself, you're actually understanding yourself better, thus increasing your capacity for honest self-represntation.

When did I ever say that I wasn't human? I believe earlier I even said that I don't consider myself to be a good person. I can be wrong, but in this case I am not.

My poor communication skills? I communicate with proper grammer and formal English. It isn't my fault if other people lack the skills necesary to understand it.

The speaker is just important in communication as the listener. Your inability to send the right message is just as much your fault as your audience as already stated. You speak to your audience otherwise you sound pompous, like you do now.

_________________
Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

As pompous as you sound when you say that I "use my words as a penis extension" and clearly have serious insecurity issues?

^^
You have no idea quite how ironic that is.

----
So where are you drawing the line between persuasion and manipulation? This distinction has to be made in order for your argument to not condemn nearly all humans as manipulative beings taking advantage of one another.

Could you further explain how you think this bonding works? What he has done is made an assesment about her, this has come out true. Were he to pretend he was a tennis player in order to win the attention of another tennis player, I would take a different slant.

It seems to me like he has said something, you have assumed it means some grand thing.

Do you need consent to make someone feel an emotion? I mean there is litigation culture but this is just getting silly...

dont we all manipulate our environment all the time to get what we want both men and women!
you call your phone company and threaten to leave them unless they give you a better phone and pay less per month. isnt that manipulative
guys buy girls drinks in the hope they'll sleep with them isnt that manipulative, the girl who smiles at a guy hoping she'll buy him drinks with the possible lore of sex, isnt that manipulative!

any action with a desired outcome that benefits yourself is in a sense manipulative, as much as human beings like each other sadly they will like themselves more its a fact of life, any dating is manipulative you meet a girl in the hope that you have sex, i am not ashamed to admit that. when a guy sees any girl the two things he is thinking is: i wonder what she looks like naked and i wonder how great she is in bed! theres no denying that,

_________________
life sucks and then you die! deal with it

Poeticlyskuac,

That is exactly what I said earlier in the thread. (That the process of creating an understanding between two people is dependent upon and requires engagement on the part of both parties.)

Fin,

I already stated that people try to manipulate one another nearly all the time. The distinction that must be made isn't between persuasion and manipulation, but between honest manipulation (ie. features a genuine presentation of self) and dishonest manipulation (ie. features a false presentation of self).

I have already explained why I disagree with the RJ video. He didn't make an assessment of her, he pulled out some observation that applies to everyone and acted as though it pertained exculsively to her, therby also implying that he possessed some special insight into her character that he did not possess.

To some extent, yes, you should have another person's consent when trying to fiddle with their emotional state. (That doesn't mean that I think you should be able to sue someone who doesn't.) Informed consent is the key part of this, btw; without the informed part, consent is meaningless.

Crazyoney2k,

If you'll note, earlier in the thread I acknowledged how widespread manipulation actually is in human society. My argument isn't aimed against all manipultion, but only the manipulation/dishonesty that occurs via a deliberate misrepresentation of the self.