In my opinion a guy that acts nice to get into your pants is just as devious as a PUA with the wrong motives.

What I'm saying is, you really can't point out a group to avoid as such guys are everywhere.

Melissa, you're fighting a losing battles




FYI I only read the first 2 pages, can't be assed reading 6 pages with WALLS of TEXT

1. I'd prefer if you kept me in a seperate category, I don't think you have a problem with casual sex.

2. Way I see it, your argument is one of emotionally loaded words, I've yet to have any clear train of thought provided to me to back up your feelings. So speculation about your motives is not un-deserved. Though I can see how it may feel probing, just ignore it and it'll go away.

3. Her choice, a BF destroyer doesn't give her false information, it doesn't ommitt anything. It takes two to tango. I have as much respect for the relationship as she has. Granted you disagree with my ethics on that issue, but that is a case of ethical difference and doesn't seem to have anything to do with lying or manipulation.

4. The distinction between unfair manipulation for sex and rape, doesn't really hold up, could you rephrase it or maybe modify it so it has some more clarity and form, at the moment it seems a bit ad hoc.

But if we are going to agree that manipulation for sex is rape. Then either....

A. PU doesn't consist of hypnotic mind tricks that remove her free will. (Which as as a student of psychology in the field of consciousness will tell you does not exist.

or

B. PUA's are psychological rapists.

4. What exactly is being done to ommitt or create false infomartion that would remove the validity of the girls consent? I'm curious on this one, maybe you could provide a couple of examples?

----

As an end note, why do you think being on this forum will help you? I can't see how it protects you from the things that you want to avoid.

You're problem has nothing much to do with Pick up, your problem is with Liars, for that a decent book on Body language would be far more effective, than hanging out with PUA's on a forum.

----

So could you provide some straight forward examples of what exactly you disagree with?

And maybe elaborate more on whether you feel manipulation for sex is different to rape, and if so "Why"?

Very true Jav

Melissa I have few questions for you. Your current boyfriend did he take on a few dates? Hang out with you a few times, Buy you gifts, have conversations with you just to make entertaining small talk? All before he actually expressed his romantic or sexual interest in you either verbally or physically?

_________________
Friendzone 1-vt51424.html?postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

OP

This is a a moralistic question and the answer is person to person. I like the OP subscribe to the policy that everyone I interact with should enjoy their experience with me. So although I have had literally dozens of opportunities to enjoy the company of a women who was already in a relationship I have a habit of changing my perception to that of the other person so that I don't do those types of things. My goal is never to hurt someone, my perception is that if I had a fly girl would I want her gamed? The absolute answer is NO. So why would I do it to someone else?

What goes around tends to come around, you hurt a bunch of girls then finally the girl you care about most will likely hurt you. Why? You will likely fall for all of the things you tricked the other girls into because those are the things that will be most effective on you. Whether she consciously knows it or not.

Melissa

I read this whole thread last night, I like Melissa, she is a sharp girl. This however is a topic where she has ruled unjustly against all PUAs because the few PUAs that are D-bags. To me this is similar to saying every Hispanic is an illegal, or every African American a criminal. While it is true that there are illegal Hispanics, criminal African Americans, and douche bag PUAs, there are illegal Africans, Caucasians, Asians, etc., there are criminals from every race, and there are PUAs that are good and bad.

Most of the PUA Gurus seem to be like this, I mean they are feasting on the weak for financial capitol of course they are douche bags. This shouldn't be about making money, this should be about helping people who need to be helped. We all got into it to be helped with this situation.

Most of the guys trying to get started in pick up do dehumanize women so that women don't have control of them via fear. The problem isn't that they mean to dehumanize them, it is that they glorified them so much that they need to lower them so that they aren't afraid of them. I am not saying it is right, in fact I consider it overkill but it is the only way they aren't afraid of them. A lot of guys give women far to much power and this is their only way of taking back that power simply put.

Most of the men that get on here are not players or douche bags, they are not soulless and come on here to learn to treat girls like crap. Most want to stop being treated like crap by women, some have revenge on their mind and that is not cool but that is person to person. Some of us have been hurt repeatedly, most of it is due to ignorance. Now we know, we know what we should or shouldn't have done. We know what we should do to get that girl we appreciate so much.

Pretty lame but I am going to us the Spider man line: "With great power comes great responsibility".

Manipulation is a large subject, a very wide subject. Melissa you are considering it a bad thing if we consciously use tactics that influence another person. Today did you say please to get something done? Did you say thank you so they would feel you are gracious? They are forms of manipulation. Have you ever modified your statement so that it sounded less ruthless? White lies are exactly that! A manipulation. You manipulate how they should feel, just as a PUA does that so that they like him more.

Just like anything the manipulator has the power to be good(make you feel good) or be bad and make you do some things you don't want to. I do not agree with RJs style just like so many others. I feel it is a bit misleading but in no way is it dishonest. I feel it is very sleezy. I believe in self improvement and education, not in manipulation. Do I know a lot of influencing tactics? Yes, those tactics have been more influential to my work and life than pick up. In my particular job (management) you need to know how people work and how to influence them realistically. If you don't know how you need to learn. Ignorance of these tactics in management is detrimental to being a good manager. So you should really look at both sides of the coin.

What is most disappointing is that men have to lie to impress women. How sad is it that a girl won't like you for you? More importantly she won't even give you a chance. Do I lie when talking to people? No. If someone makes an insulting comment about me I do agree, if that is dishonest, but I do it to not give them the satisfaction of effecting me. I am not doing it to lie, I am doing it because they are making assumptions about me that are false just like you have about the entire community.

Melissa I think you should be far more open minded, and stop making stereotypical statements, it only makes you appear less intelligent. I know this is untrue.

Your perception of manipulation is what makes it good or bad, a person can be a great manipulator and be doing it for good. Tony Robbins comes to mind for this. Do you consider him bad? Do you consider motivational speakers bad? They are there to manipulate your mind to absorb the positive in life is this bad? Melissa you are once again giving a word value as negative(we argued in that other thread).

_________________
Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

Madals,

Admittedly, my view of boyfriend destroyers is based entirely upon my own opinions and modes of behaviour. I don't play games, and I don't test people. If I built a wall in front of you, it's honestly because I want you to stay on the other side of it, not because I want to see you fling yourself over the walls that I build with ever increasing feats of dexterity. Unsuprisingly, I also don't take kindly to people who don't respect the walls that I create.

I have to confess amusement at how often I'm being accused of living in a world populated solely by Disney princesses and knights in shinning armour, particularly given the anti-romantice manifesto that I posted earlier. I also don't believe in knights with shinning armour; most often, they're using any apparently 'noble' action to abuse whatever trust you place in them as a result of whatever they have done. So, in summary, if you ever do see a knight in shinning armour, do the smart thing: run.

What I do place value on, however, is trust in relationships. Again, my view is skewed because I've never casually dated anyone. My MO involves serious. long-term relationships. If you get into one of those, you should (hopefully) have already passed the point that you're discussing.

Jelly,

I am extremely rigid in some things, and I make no apologies for that. My views are also extremely nuanced, however, something that tends to lessen the rigidity is properly understood. Some things, though, I will always condemn as wrong and will never want to be a part of. If that makes me inherently inflexible, so be it. Being too open is just as damaging.

Vaj,

It depends on how you define the battle.

I don't care about converting other people to my position. I don't care if they think that I'm flat-out wrong, illogical, immoral, ect.

Hobbit,

Manipulation (ie. misreprentation of self) does not negate free will, but it does malform it. It isn't truly free if you're being misled, even if the choice is ultimately left to you.

For instance, it's a hot day out and I've just been on a really long hike. My really good friend meets me at the top of the mountain or whatever and has two cups with different beverages in them and says that I can have the first choice. She/he says that one cup contains water, and the other contains beer. I don't like beer, so I chose the water. But then let's also say that the water isn't really water--it's an odorless, tasteless and colourless posion. I drink the 'water,' and die. I chose the cup, but was my choice really free and informed?

Fin, you say those types of comments, you get classes with that type of commentor.

My suspicion is that you're not getting all of the nuances to what I'm saying. I've run into this problem before--it isn't so much a question of intelligence, but how one operates, I believe. I don't provide straightforward answers to anything, and there is always an exception (also in some cases, ie. when laying down a general policy, I prefer to leave the exceptions unmentioned). That can be a source of immense frustration to people who see things in a more clear-cut or straightforward manner.

I never compared manipulation for sex and rape, that was someone else. I don't equate them or, at least, not in most cases. Statutory is different (again, depending, I don't consider the 18 year-old who has sex with his sixteen year-old girlfriend to be a rapist, even in cases where the age of consent is 18.)

Help is a nebulous concept, which means different things to different people. I do get something, out of it, yes, although perhaps not what you think.

Reo,

No, he did not. He expressed interest in me the evening that we met. We didn't jump straight into a relationship, and the types of elements that you speak of did precede that.

Poeticlyskuac,

I have my prejudices, as does everyone. The unacknowledged prejudice causes far more damage than the one that it recognized.

Again, realize that I have a general policy with exceptions. Since general policies are basically negated by telling people about the exceptions, I generally don't make that explicit. From what I've seen, a lot of PU stuff wouldn't work on me, either because it's directed towards something that I don't do, or because it involves something that instantly starts raising red flags. And once the red flags are up, I don't care how great of a person you are, you're done.

Men are the only ones who get treated badly, you know, and if I see a guy who's dehumanizing the other gender, I'm going to react badly to it, whatever the reason. Having been hurt does not give one the excuse to turn around and hurt others.

The manipulation thing is a slight case of me mispeaking. I believe I mentioned earlier that manipulation is a far mroe widespread phenomena then ppl like to believe, and that not all of it is objectional. What I object to is when either dishonesty or manipulation is used in conjunction with a false presentation of either the self or one's motives in order to achieve some end.

I can't speak for all women, but I don't ask men to lie to impress me. I don't expect it. Why would I? We're all human. We have flaws, and you have to take the good along with the bad. I'm not saying that there aren't some flaws or other lifestyle choices that I would reject--there are, and there should be, for everyone, particularly when talking about who you want to date. But what I am saying is that I don't want some guy to lie in order to impress me--I don't want to know his alter ego, I want to know him. (While saying this, I think there are some things that are best left unexpressed. For instance, I really don't want to know if he fantizes about other women while sleeping with me, and I would assume that the same would hold true for him. There is a difference between honesty and full disclosure.) Besides, lies tend to come out, anyway. And with the type of situations that I get myself into, it will come out because I only get into long-term relationships (or, at least, have thus far).

Anyone else get the feeling that Melissa is not a female?

Just look at the argument he makes.

Females don't get into discussions like this.

Dont feed the troll.

I am not going to lie, I consider you very fooled if you believe that none of this stuff works on you. Most of the PUA tactics are derived from science, psychological, courtship, anthropology, etc. You seem to think you are not a human, I find that hard to believe. Girls can use most of the same tactics on men and they would work phenomenally. That said I'd like you to expand on this, something you don't do? Like what? You don't talk to people? That is all pick up/ courtship is. It is learning the proper steps in an interaction to learn to be more successful with the opposite sex. I don't appreciate scripted/routines that much, I think you should learn to understand why things work and than be given an example not use someone else's personality.

I didn't say I agreed with the tactic of dehumanizing the opposite sex to destroy you fear of them. In fact as I said I figure it to be overkill. So does a women have the right to reject a man with out allowing him to speak? Women do this all the time. Why does a women have the right to hurt a man more often? A women gets what she wants more often than a guy gets what he wants in courtship.

I don't care much for RJ but he doesn't lie, he speaks broad statements that every human qualify for. When do you not manipulate someone for something? We have all done things to get what we wanted. You are no different than any of us, don't act as if you are. If you tell me you have never manipulated anyone I will outright call you a LIAR. That would be what you are. Did you hide some truth to get it? Probably, we have all covered part of the truth to get something(manipulation).

As far as asking a man to lie, that is not an intention it is a result. Courtship is about presentation, if you don't have much to present you tend to over exaggerate statements (a lie). I have talked to girls and not told them what I did for work, they found out and all of a sudden I was impressive, that is bull shit. She didn't like me for me, she liked the VALUE I presented. Mind you she wasn't against me before hand but it is ridiculous that stating my employment made her more attracted to me. I don't tell women my job very often because of that.

Women may not ask men to lie to them, but in some way they expect it. Women want to be wooed and that doesn't happen with the truth very often. I don't lie, but I also don't ever tell women everything about me. You may want to know him, but in order for you to know him often times he has to fool you for the moment so that he can show you him later. In other words pick up is merely a smoke screen to introduce a person.

Women love to get fucked as much as men like to fuck. Why do you consider women the victims? A guy manipulates a girl to get laid, a women manipulates a man to get food, drinks, a ride, etc. Women manipulate men far more often than men do to women. I may be wrong but I remember a few studies have shown that women are far better at lying (being dishonest) than men between this and their ability to read men's body language/psyche(women's intuition) they tend to manipulate with a far larger success rate. A women is not a victim when she has sex with a man, it appears as though if a man nails a girl with dishonesty he is a bad person, but what about all the women who have fucked there way into movie roles? Or girls that have Fucked the boss into a promotion? A women who fucks a guy for money? The list goes on and on. Why is it ok for a women to like a guy because of his wallet? Isn't that very dishonest? Her attraction isn't to him at all, it's his money.

You seem to act as if PUA is misleading in courtship, in general people are misleading in courtship, it is a result of trying to be successful in the reproductive process.

_________________
Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

I also would like to note that many PUA tricks are the same as what girls do in order to get a guy (or even worse: in order to get a stalker to which she won't look after but who boosts her ego).

Push&pull is one of the most familiar. Every girl is a natural master in push&pull. Push&pull is realy toying, playing with the person: if he is not prepared for it, it drives the other person nuts until he gets oneitis, and then it's almost always game over.

So PUAs use the same tactics: I think it's ok to do. Girls do it. I'm not as naturaly good as girls in push&pull, but I try to use it when there is a girl I like, but she is playing hard to get (=> push&pull), then it's time to pull out the big guns and trying to drive her nuts, so that she will get oneitis for me. Only that way I can know she realy into me and won't dump when I kiss her or whatever (many girls dump guys when they have them and thus are no challenge anymore).

_________________
You WANT to make a change.
You CAN make a change.
You WILL make a change.

Ambitious to be succesfull => Shyler

1. I am arguing an entirely different case to the others. It's quite confusing that you see me as part of "them" so to speak.

2. What do you call sex without informed consent? I call that rape.

3. So far it has been difficult to get any premises -> inference -> conclusion arguments out of you. And without an actual argument being presented (see below) it is almost impossible for anyone with an ounce of intellectual maturity to take your train of thought as anything more than a ramble.


EXAMPLE: We have this, and this and knowing that this brings about this, we can conclude that.

It'd be nice to get this out of the open as I believe this is an issue that alot of the posters in this thread who have been arguing against you could learn from.

Edit: I'd still love some examples of deception in PU.