1) Thats your experience...mine is quite opposite though I do hang around different circles than most people when it comes to MA. Being I only accept TMA taught in the TMA fashion, like they would do in temples and such (for all MA are just a moving meditation). Further I've said this before and I'll say it again...the proof is seen however even if ppl record it- everyone thinks its bunk- so eitherway it doesn't matter until you experience it 1st hand. (which I have many many times).

2) Again, anyone can do that- to a point of having them shocked and not able to move? I've experienced this personally and thats not even a direct look. That was me standing 5 meters away. In TMA thats what we would call Qi, Ki, or Prana with the mind leading it to have such a result. (which MMA doesn't cover).

3) Well then how do they view it? Because...from our discussions in the past, all I've heard you say was it was about fighting and not cultivating yourself. (as well as others). So you've either changed your POV or I remember incorrectly.

Futher...MA are the internal changes of psyche, mind, spirit which then are represented externally. You can't have one without the other, in proper training.

As of saying its developed through physical virtues...partly thats half of it, the other half would be what you call "vague esoterics", which isn't open to just anybody- however if one is ready- the teacher will show.

1. All MA is just moving meditation, go to the Philippines and tell that to those who have practised their martial arts the same way for generations, I can guarantee they will laugh their asses off.

That theory is based on the myth that all martial arts deriviate from the Shaolin temples.

2. That is your interpretation of Qi, not the universal one, we have a Kyukoshin Kai, instructor who endlessly mentions concepts of Kia. As far as he can tell it means, a spirit that wills and endures.

Sensei William Coyle, has got 40+ years under his belt studying and teaching Aikido, he is the chief instructor of the Makotokai and though he no longer has a regular amatuer class as he is now focusing on his advanced students, he still frequently holds and organises cross training events where he will teach and train the nuances of Aikido that he has picked up.

He has trained with Saito Shihan with whom he received his instructorship, trained wtih Noro Shihan and during Chiba Shihans time in the UK he was Chiba Shihans Uke for 10 years. The man has spent almost over 3/4's of his life training with and under martial arts legends in the world of Aikdo.

http://www.makotokai.co.uk/index.php

Sensei Coyle frequently refers to Ki, which he was ALWAYS taught to refer to as "heart" and still maintains that Ki is a mental quality not a spiritual one.

While I have only had a brief encounter with the man, and read up on discussions he has had. Sensei Coyle is a very polite and calm man (espcecially for one born in glasgow ;P)


But... start talking about Qi blasts, shields and magic forces and after a sound thumping you'll be tossed out onto the curb with a good dose of "don't come back till you've seen a shrink".

Should also mention that he is a fan of MMA and has been known to spar regularly with other MAist from different styles.

3. MMA is a practise, as is TMA, you make what you have of it. For some it's a way to burn of steam, for others it's a place to drop of the kids, for another it's about learning self defence.

And for those who are like you and me. It's a way to ask questions about ourselves and work to make adjustments if we decide we don't like what we see.

I've met and I've seen and I am a TMA practitioner, the notion that TMA will impart spiritual wisdom on you in a way that other things can't is romanticised elitism. It's not based on any fact, becuase so far no one has been able to pin point where this spiritual knowledge is, what it is, or what it does.

There is a spiritual development in the art practise. It's just another form of zen, and burning insence in order to feel vaugely oriental brings you no closer.

Let's not throw stereotypes.Remember,a fighter is the one who shapes his style.He is the one who has the last word on discipline,respect,etc.
Here is a disciplined MMA : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4WGyU0NZMk

No I wouldn't call it a myth. MA imo did derive off the Shaolin in China, which actually got transfered by the Indians. That said...just cause you fight I wouldn't call that a MA, anyone can fight. Would I call a wrestler a MA? No I wouldn't...why? Cause though they train their body I don't call them training themselves as would say a Shaolin monk would. My friend is a brown belt in Karate & some MMA, yet...he has no awareness or sensitivity to his environment. So what if he can throw a punch...so what if he can kick people, so in that is he living as a MA? I'd say no though he has the physical training.

MA for my view cover the full scale of learning about yourself in cultivated practices, meaning physically, mentally, emotionally, and if you believe in energy- energetically. Its from my background you NEED to learn about medicine and other things if you do MA because so what if you can kill...that just makes you a fighter. Not a artist of life- which is much different. You can save a life or you can kill one, for every injury you can make you should be able to heal. You can make your enemy your friend. If thats very "temple" like fine...

Thats the difference between MMA (in the present) vs. TMA, cause going to the proper teachers though they emphasis fighting they also teach you to nurture/heal others and in that cultivate yourself in the process. (At least in Japanese/Chinese what I've seen). MMA like what you see on tv, though great physically and maybe having the great training mentally from that..does not teach you those aspects. Theres TMA teachers who don't do that either..however I'd say they teach a incomplete system then.

It truly it what you make it...that said with EVERYTHING you've said about MA in general, it hasnt added to this thread at all, if anything made it more complicated. I'm saying one view and I welcome others..however we've been running in circles- which doesn't benefit it at all..to anyone. The whole point in general speaking of MA was talking about the bigger picture than most people are use to. In my view..its pure cultivation & being in the innergame section, I think it fits fine in that "philosophy". So in that I'm going say, if you need to say something further...I'm welcome for PM & discussion (even if you want to open a separate thread), and we'll end the whole MA discussion here.

Hey man this is a good thread if only I found it sooner.

_________________
Three Types of Players:
1) Those who doesn't know whats happening
2) Those who watch what happens
3) Those who make it happen

I think this is very pertinent to the thread, you believe people will get some benefits from TMA that they cannot get from MMA. I however believe that they are more likely to get the benefits that you discussed in an MMA school.

I'm not going to go into the "this isn't an martial art" debate, purely becuase nowadays we have very different connotations for the term MA which makes our definition alot narrower than it should be.

Regardless could you articulate just where this additional learning is in the TMA world?

Not quite...MMA in the ways your talking can be similar to TMA, however its not...cause I know for a fact it lacks certain trainings that TMA have (at least in the indian, chinese & depending japanese schools).

Easy you learn off a teacher if they think your "good enough", meaning you won't abuse the knowledge. That said, I won't discuss this in the thread directly, by choice- if you feel the need to PM, I invite you to.

What is lacking? You're going to have to make it clear before can take such a point seriosuly.

Are you referring to incremented learning?


Not only is that aspect to training not there for the reasons you are inferring it is; yet still, how does that aspect of training impact mental/spiritual development in any way?

No...I'm not referring to that, again..you want the info PM-I will not openly talk about it in this thread nor forum.

Your best points so far are about quality, action thru inaction, and motivations. Keep going with this, you'll teach yourself (and probably a fair amount of others) a lot.

No its actually quite clear cut...that said, if you can't even do these basics for a yr. Theres no point in me even explaining the more medium level to advanced level things, all I will say is TMA does cover them.

Why should people invest there time, money and effort when you refuse to articulate anything about these benefits?

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Most people come to Martial arts with thoughts of levitating monks and anceint warrior rituals, believing that all common sense should be left behind.

This self generated hype in the MA community has allowed charlatans and con-artists to thrive and ruin the reputation of many traditional martial arts.

If someone wants the benefits of Martial arts they should be well armed with knowledge.

Why?

Because leaving them with vague half formed spiritual ideas makes them choice prey to every Martial arts fraud from here to the moon and back.

I already have articulated the basic benefits, I don't need to say anymore than that..the rest they'll discover from the training itself. Again, your taking the POV of you need all the info before doing something, where in my learning I had to take a leap of faith to do what I do- meaning I trusted the person enough to teach me and I trusted myself enough to surrender my learning like that. Hence this is where tradition has its gold and negative pt, its only meant for those who are fully committed to get what it truly holds. It doesn't open its door just to anyone- one needs to be ready.

This was the way of ancient times...in modern day we take it like its archaic because well..no as a consumer we expect answers and a clear cut path for US to see. Point is..what can you see if your in the forest? Start walking first to get out of the forest, then you'll see it as a whole. You'll learn it when its time for you to learn it...not when you think its time. Big difference.

I agree with the knowledge part, that said...litmus test them. Looking back into the thread..I thought I did put how to, however it seems I didn't.

The Four questions you need to answer are:

1. What benefits are those basic benefits?

2. Why can you only get it from TMA's?

3. How would a student having an understanding of how benefits will be granted to him screw up his instruction?

4. What exactly are you talking about with learning?

Technique?

That's held back so new guys don't go and attempt stuff they aren't even remotly capable fo pulling off under pressure.

Spiritual wisdom?

Is this located in the technique? If so, how is that even communicated?

Is it an oral/written tradition? If so why do you need martial arts in the first place?

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I would also like to see some info on how this feudal heirarcy is traditional. Considering the way most JMA's and KMA's are trained it doesn't make sense and it doesn't sit well with the routes of most CMA's. (including the Shaolin Temple story)

1) See how they interact with people. Is the mind calm? What is their focus...is it both the cultivation aspect while learning to defend oneself? Both should be covered...ethics/morales are always talked about in TMA and the teacher should be very strict about it. While at the same time teaching practical self-defense. Think of them as a good parent figure..they'll go easy on you once they push your boundaries and push you a tad more, or they'll drive you to overcome what you think isn't possible.

Easy example...do horse stance 60 minutes. Its physically possible (if your decently healthy) yet you'll probably quit before that cause of your mental chatter.

2) Look at the students: Are the student disciplined, orderly, mannered/courteous? Or is it chaotic? Do the students approach you and ask you about what brought you here or do they just ignore you? The students are the reflection of the teacher/teachings of the system. If they are all about fighting without the cultivation aspects, I'd say thats not a place to go to. Same thing if thier all about philosophy without fighting. Yin and Yang..they should be balanced.

3) Look to see if its a "rigid" mindset or "open", again...TMA though there is tradition, are a living being in my opinion anything less means its dead. What does that mean...well it means though you learn a system- its just a system and should be open to understanding where other martial arts systems come from. What are thier roots & philosophies? Why do they do X? Though your master or the general students are focusing on the one martial art system...they should be able to appreciate all systems.

4) TMA teaches you philosophy. In the Chinese system(s) of Kungfu, they teach you philosophy and how to put abstract things such as yin/yang, or if you do the animal forms (Shaolin)- what their link is in Chinese medicine is, and basically things around that to make the it so your life is, "Philosophy in action". From there..you have a greater understanding of yourself in relation to what generally has been said by different cultures in different ways, though ultimately they all say the same thing. Doesn't matter if its Indian, Japanese, or Chinese (theres others however I do know..those cultures are very stingy teaching the philosophical aspects in relation to everything).

5) Test them...I mean it. See what they can do back, I've tested all my teachers just to see if thier BS'in at least for the self-defense, if I can't see how good they are just from their forms. (that takes a trained eye though). So initially if you dont know what to look for...say, hey I don't mean disrespect however...can you show me some of the things you can do if I attack? Good teachers usually are open to this. (The more advanced aren't being if you can't see how good they are from their form, your not ready to be taught by them)

6) Whats the vibe of the training dojo/school? Really as my old Shaolin teacher said indirectly which I'm going paraphrase: It should be like a BIG family...everyone is welcoming, happy, yet there all serious cause they train as its their life, because it is. (An example of this was when I fell down in training by slipping, I was 16. Though I was 16...the teacher freaked out on everyone (calmly) saying..what is wrong with this picture, helping me up. He goes...look he's the youngest person here you all should be looking out for him, no matter how what his age is.

"Even lowly officers should look after their subordinates"- Full metal Alchemist brotherhood--> Roy Mustang

That is your general screening process for finding a good TMA school/teacher.