I think that is a VERY naive thing to say. You don't KNOW that you haven't - just to the same extent that I dont KNOW I have never dated a murderer. People who want to hide things hide it very well. If I hadn't have told the women I have been with about PUA I very much doubt any of them would have had any clue.
Or you know, group 3 - those who are just interested in social dynamics and attraction (to name just 2 such people would be 870 and I).
Are you aware of how many people get into PUA to find "THE WOMAN OF THEIR DREAMS" so they can get married and live happily ever after.
This is genuinely interesting - please can you expand
There is one key thing to human nature which applies to EVERYONE. People NEVER do something for nothing.
There is ALWAYS a personal gain somewhere in every action. Even the people who work at the charity shop for no money are getting personal gain - the warm fuzzy feeling.
The biggest drive in everything humans do is sex. The aim to get money is ultimately the aim to get more sex (money = power. power = more sex). The aim of going to the gym is to look better = more sex. People are constantly manipulating you and themselves to try to get sex regardless of PUA.
I upset far more women before I learnt anything about PUA than I do now - I would flirt with everyone and not notice I was leading women on. Now I pick up if I someone is attracted to me when I was just being flirty and having fun. I am sure there are quite a few guys who manipulate women to get sex and break their hearts after learning PUA - but everyone who gets half good at PU realises leaving a train wreck behind you will come back and bite you in the ass.
Well thats good, cos honest I am lovely really

Anyway, feel free to PM me if you want to discuss this out of the limelight as I honest want to try to show you that the majority of PUA's are not bad people or manipulative.

Oh, by the way - if I only have a debate with you, I appreciate some things I have said may have come across a little aggressive and that was never the intent.

Define, manipulative, define misleading, define player.

I think even you are un-certain of what your message is.

I've read almost all posts and thought i share some of my key points.

1:Pua changes you as a person,but why is that?because the power you get.And that power can be seen as manipulation.Make-up,push up bra's do the same thing.How many high school girls think they are the hotest in the world?and that EVERY guy think just about fucking them? because that is how people acted around them,from the time they where getting favors to this day,power has corupted them.

2:You can never understand how an AFC feels if you didn't do it.But that's not the point,there are PUA's and AFC's,but what about the rest?Those who aren't even AFC,22 year old virgin who never had a GF,never touched a girl,he's been "that guy" all his life,and it's not his fault.Maybe he was mindfucked from every direction all his life,and now in PU he sees hope,probably the only place he can get it.

3:What is honesty?Walking with your BF,seeing a dog and thinking "wow i would fuck that!"Well that is honest,if from some reason you think something sick,you say it.Would you like to live in a world in wich everybody is honest?Hell no,we have sometimes sick perverted thoughts,that are inpropriate and offesnsive to others,but we are human.And by "lying" we can get rid of the repulsive thoughts.By the way,where you alwajs honest Melissa?you see a guy that you like,you see that he is a little shy,what do you do?Do you go and talk to him?or do you give him some signals to approach or something,being fearfull of not being labaled a slut by society.

In the end PU is giving us a way to proving our manhood,there are no boy PUA's,only men.Confidence,strenght,honor etc came from the things we did.Fought prey animals,killed each other,that made us real men.In this world we have no enemy but ourselfs,and trust me on this one,it's the most powerful enemy you could ever encounter!

This is not a debate that will have a clear end, arguing about details can go on forever as everything needs to be defined in the absolute to be correct.

The summary of what has been said and agreed on:

1.Some PUA's use manipulative techniques(such as NLP based PUA's), while some naturals also use manipulative techniques. Thus PU techniques are not manipulative but the user of the technique can be. Many PUA's preach moral concept for w/e reason (perhaps to manipulate ppl into believing their moral oh shit here we go again, its a circle)

2.Many people here have spoken up and said that they did not use PU to manipulate women.

3.Many people here have brought up the point that women manipulate men with makeup, and other means of altering appearance-fact, but it is refuted that this does not change the way the women thinks in picking up men. Many women also read magazines that tell a women how to get men much like PU, interesting point

4.Another argument comes up concluding most people are manipulative at some point whether consciously or not and this is true bc every interaction between ppl has an effect on ppl hence causing manipulation.

A problem here is defining manipulation vs. influence

5.This in turn brings up the argument whether it should be allowed for ppl to consciously influence(manipulate) others and to what degree influencing should be allowed, having this debate will destroy the debate because there is no absolute.

Also blurrying the line between subconscious, conscious, and instincts will cause great problems along with the notion that naturals do it subconsciously while PUA's do it consciously.

I will share some things that will now will be known consciously even though the process is subconscious. now that we know simple ways to manipulate/influence others is it wrong to do it?
Note all are proven in psychology Journals, will find sources if need be. I am in a huge uni library I can actually walk to the book and get it.

Women will rate a man more attractive if:
he is dating an attractive women
next to his picture is his salary and that salary is 6 figs.
anything indcating high status/high value

A man will rate a women high if she is:
making herself appear more attractive physically
ex. make up, amount of skin shown, amount of feminine movement(waist movement)

A visual interaction created on purpose creates an effect on a person. influence? or manipulation?

Women who are dressed the most seductively and dsiplaying the most movement(dancing) at the club will be women that have a spouse and are ovulating.

When a man is exposed to vaginal secretions he loses the ability to rate attractiveness of women. yes that powerful.

Is this fair? manipulation?? or does a nature argument supercede this, now define nature, consciousness etc, everything gets lost in abstractness.



Another problem comes up with the whole interaction of men and women and the difference between them. and lets just leave that argument alone for now.

No group of people can be generalized bc that is also known as stereotyping and that never ends well, saying AFC's, Naturals, PUA's, Men, Women, etc are X. will get no one anywheres they are stereotypes of how one group behaves so then we say SOME or MOST act this way. WTF SOME people ALWAYS act some way, all arguments regarding SOME should be thrown out.
This argument is as bad as all Muslims are terrorist a horrible stereotype.

Melissa at least what we are getting at now is closer, you dislike NLP styles of PU along with other PUA's who seem to be manipulating or is it influencing.
Define a clear line jk, bc it is impossible you could create a spectrum of manipulation though
Note an example for melissa to not my actual beliefs
NLP

_________________
Inner game is the core, outer game is just an expression of it

Manipualtion is jamming a gun into someones mouth while you rape them. Manipulation is using social-economic status to force someone into prostitution.
Manipulation is forcing a business man to close down his cafe or your goons will come round and smash up his shop on a weekly basis.

Manipulation removes a persons free will.

Manipulation for sex is rape.
--------------

Studies in the field of corporate psychology have found evidence that it's not uncomon for good interview performers to get a job, even though there are qualified people with (good) Read: Better credentials available.

So did those interviewee's who got the job based on their interview performance manipulate the interviewer?

No, the interviewer made a chocie, and that's what this is, it's a choice.

When Melissa fucked that guy, she made a choice, and surrounding herself with the fable that she is some weak willed shell who will dance when commanded by a guy in a fuzzy hat won't change that. It may comfort her somewhat to believe the weakness that was in her realtionship wasn't in anyway her and her boyfriends fault, but that some external force was to blame.

It's a choice, it's a choice to enter a relationship, it's a choice to fuck someone, it's a choice to shake someones hand.

A PUA does not have power over the girl, it never was about power. She can always just say "No" and walk away for her own reasons. And there is nothing the guy can do about it.

The idea that via routines, body-language and sexual tension you can tottaly remove someone elses free will is the laughable wet dream of a 14 year old boy.

To the OP I don't see the point of your post, work out your own moral dilemmas. What if everyone were to tell you your views are wrong? are you going to change your moral's and values because we told you too. If you did change that just means you had really weak values to begin with. What if we told you go snort some coke are you going to do that too? See my point.

And for Melissa you've never been a man and have no clue what it's like having to approach to women risking rejection. In most cases the man has to be the one to initiate the interaction. The women rarely make first contact.

Boyfriend destroyers are a great thing You're not thinking about the fact we may have just saved a women from a life of thinking she had no other choices, boredom, and/or an unhealthy relationship. Boyfriend destroyers also get pass girls lying about having a boyfriend.

You want to bash casual sex well how is that any different from you having sex with your boyfriend. You're not even married..., he just happens to be a guy who your screwing and spending lots of time with.

_________________
Friendzone 1-vt51424.html?postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

After calming down and thought cold about it well i think one question that's very relevant needs a debate:

Is nowadays the "classic" way of starting a relationship valid anymore?

Well let me tell you about me: I'm poor (lesser than average in my country and probably utterly poor by US standards), I own nothing (no car, no house) and the future doesn't look bright... And I'm living in a big city where fresh water, good food, fresh air, all the things that nature gave us for ages for granted are only for those with good cash. I'm not genetically exceptionally good looking, I'm average, even ugly for some but good looking for others. The thing is I would have looked way better in a natural environment but poverty, pollution, malnutrition, etc. have taken a big toll on me.
I was MAD about it, very fucking mad! And I don't complain (except now).

But all that haven't killed me. I'm still willing to dream about that iconic relationship. To meet the girl of my dreams, she likes me, etc etc things go well between us, we do a lot of fun things together, we have passionate sex, we explore our "good" human nature etc etc all that stuff you read in romance novels.

All that until you come down to me and live in my world. And see that all of those are impossible things. And see that it's a matter of surviving and not basking in comfort.

And here come some and tell me: But you should adapt and work till you die to be like us. You should accept our leadership, what we teach you, our money, our ways, our rules, our believes. But I tell them: You are cool guys, I like you. Those are really interesting things you do there, but... I feel different about this things.
I don't like working in an office eating cookies, I don't like paying for water, I don't like working till I drop dead for your money, I don't like you telling me who to fuck or not. You know what I want? I WANT THAT GIRL! And she likes me as much as 2 strangers could ever like each other. But we wont be together because YOU fucking people won't let us know each other. You wont let us open her without the fear of social awkwardness; you wont let us look good without your money, you wont let us go swim naked without paying, you wont let us sleep under the night sky because you will throw us into jail for disturbing public peace.
And you brainwashed her with your rules, morale, good manners, social conditioning, religion to go for the man that YOU deem worthy.

You will only let us do what naturally we should do ONLY IF WE PLAY BY YOUR RULES. And who the fuck are you to tell me what is wrong and what is right? FUCK YOU!

The thing is you are making it IMPOSSIBLE to me to get what I want from this life, to listen to my instincts who survived millions of years UNLESS I become like you. Unless I give up to what I am to what I love and become a zombie who passes trough life to make it more comfortable to you, the one who has more success by today's standards.

I KNOW WHAT I WANT! And I promise you I'll make pace with you and make you my friend if you leave me and my love to value what we want. I'll even agree with some things you say if you are my friend.

But sadly that won't happen. That is just dreaming bullshit. There are only 3 options left: 1. Fight 2. Get assimilated 3. Die
Guess what type I am?...

And you know what is funny? That society most likely will have the next 2 futures:
1. It will encounter Chaos. War. Natural Disaster.
2. It will turn into plastic.
And society cant evolve quietly. It cannot avoid a disaster at some point in its future. At least my logic tells me to bet my house on it.

If we will turn into plastic I'll just roll over quietly and die in a few generations.

If on the other hand shit will hit the fan then the guy who thinks like that is the guy I would bet my money on if I would be a supercomputer or something. That guy will survive, that guy will be the future.
That is how it always was. That's why I'm here because my ancestors thought like me when confronted with dire situations. And their instincts survived more than their thoughts. True instincts need a lot more than words to be changed.
And I'm stubborn like fuck.
And I'm sad to see so many people soft pampered and brainwashed and turned into beings that they are not. People that are so "by society's rules" and by "morale" and who eat McDonalds and chocolate all day. I take my chances and dare to fuck your morale hardcore!

So fuck you miss smart ass who talks about morale. UNLESS YOU COME WITH ANOTHER METHOD that can satisfy our needs and that it's also morale in your view than shut up. You are being hypocrite.

On the other hand me... I only have a few decades left to live (If I'm lucky) and the living conditions now are dire. If I shut up I'll either die or end up with some unpleasant surprise. Until now PUA is the only thing that is actually free of all that bullshit. All the manipulations you think that are so bad, are in fact nothing more than words (oh yes tons of dudes are getting scammed with worthless seminars and shits , but that's not ALL PUA's). Really those manipulation aren't that bad. They are just fucking words and shits... You give to much importance to them because you are a pampered soft person with high education and with a mind full of useless lecture of so called smart people. If you go out in the world on your own you will have a mind blowing surprise. On the other hand me, I look at the things to dire.

The truth can be somewhere between us all, and in fact the only thing that matters is me fucking whoever my instincts qualify.

_________________
Some fucking dude

Rather than simply give one reply as I have been doing, I'm going to give two responses this time, one to the rational, polite group of commentors and the other to the group of people who feel that they simply cannot make their point and adequately express their outrage at both me and the world without stooping to the level of insults and profanity. (Btw, you might be interested to know that I consider the first person to use profanity to be the autonomatic loser of any argument because such usage implies an inability to express yourself civilly.)

Unsuprisingly, I'm beginning with the first group.

Madals and Shylar,

In answer to my earlier off-handed comment that I think there are more conducive routes to assume when trying to improve one's success with the opposite gender, I feel that in many cases the problem is not actually in dating, but in one's lifestyle as a whole. I realize that certain holisitc forms of PU do address this issue, but I feel that they are lacking because they put success with the opposite gender on a pedestal. Why do you want to holisitcally improve your life through PU--so that you can get women. While I'm not arguing that that isn't or shouldn't be considered a valid goal in some cases, life is about far more than romantic relationships and sex. Trying to improve your life solely through or because of that narrow lense is unduly limiiting.

I do not disagree that people, even nice people, tend to do things because there is some benefit in it for them. Yes, the person who volunteers in the charity shop feels good about doing it. But getting something out of an action does not imply a conniving, manipulative schemeing mind with a nerfarious motive. Getting something out of your actions does not entail manipulation.

Looking at some of the other comments, I should probably define my understading of manipulation a little more clearly. It tends to be one of those rather nebulous words, like liberty or power, that is generally understood to carry a general definition or connotation although the specifics can differ from person to person. Manipulation entails using one's actions, words, or some scenario that one has created in order to influence another person or organization. Manipulation doesn't have to be bad, and it doesn't have to imply nerfarious motives. We all manipulate each other all the time--it's almost inevitable, really. What I object to is the use of blatant dishonesty (ie. a guy telling a girl that he loves her dearly and wants to marry her when all he wants is sex. If he himself is confused about his motives, that's different. A great deal of pain is caused by indecision, and although I do laud it, nor can I aboslutely condemn it in all cases.), in order to achieve one's goal.

Dishonesty I'm defining here both as saying something untrue and as presenting yourself as something that you are not in order to achieve your goals.

You are also correct to note that their is a difference between dishonesty and subjecting someone to your inner dialogue. No, I don't think that it's dishonest to have feelings for someone or think that someone is attractive and then not act on those impulses. Yes, I do think it is dishonest not to think that someone is attractive and to tell them that you think they are.

I should also clarify--I don't object to all dishonesty. Who hasn't told a white lie? White lies are those that are necessary to preserve someone's feelings or those that do not hurt anyone. I've long been of the opinion that society would collapse if everyone had to be complete honest all of the time. When you get down to it, a lot of lying takes place in order to preserve civility and avoid offending people. Despite my inclinations towards debate and contentious issues, there is a time, a place and a way to say things that might offend other people.

In your case at the mall, I'd say that is a stupid move because it's a badly constructed lie. If something happens between those two people, there's always the off chance that it might come around to bite him in the butt. The guy needs to further remove himself from the conversation--it isn't his sister, it's his friend's sister and his friend wants advice. The birthday isn't tomorrow, it's coming up. (Yes, I know, contradictory. Welcome to my world.)

I don't object to that because it's innocous--a white lie. A bit, sneaky, yes, but not something that is too terribly dishonest, particularly if phrased correctly.

Magic,

I've never been a part of the PU community, nor am I likely to ever be, although I thank you for the sentiment.

Okay, a two-part reponse to some of the nice commentators as well. Dinenr is calling.

And I'm sure you're all been waiting with bated breath for my response, so I won't hold you in suspense any longer. ;)

Robizertal, I think that you may be a little confused. I never said that I was against casual sex. So long as everyone is honest, I don't care what you do. Go sleep with as many partners, of however genders, that you want and, so long as you are upfront about what your intentions are and your partner is as well, I couldn't care less.

Power is a nebulous concept. The way that I see it, PU is and isn't about gaining power. Power isn't necessarily manipulative, either. More subtle forms of it often are, but there is also such a thing as blunt power. In many, but not all, cases, people have power over other people only because those people have given it to them. It's more complicated than that, of course, because of issues such as income and necessity, but, generally speaking, there is some complicity on the part of the less-powerful in the most powerful's accruement of power.

I also don't necessarily object to existing power dynamics, depending upon how such power is collected. So long as everyone is honest about what they're doing and both parties possess a complete understanding of the just relationship, I have no objection. I object to PU when this does not hold true--ie. when the PUA is using manipulative means or misrepresenting himself in order to illegitimately gain power over another.

I also refuse to discus makeup/push-up bras/clothing any longer because I have already addressed it multiple times on this thread and, every time, there is someone who ignores me and forces me to repeat it again. If you care that much, go look it up.

I also have to laugh at your assertion that there are no boy PUAs, only men. The reality is that there are far more ignorant, spoiled and/or rage-filled little boys on this earth than there are men. PU is no exception.

Jelly,

I think a close look at my understanding of self-presentation is called for. I object to dishonesty and manipulation both according to the extent to which the subject is using them to present a false image of himself and/or his intentions.

To return to the sister/mall example. If you're the kind of guy who does actually care about what his sister thinks, and would value getting her somethign that she would like, by asking that question you're not really misrepresenting yourself although you are uttering a white lie. If, however, you aren't that kind of guy and don't care what you sister thinks, then you are misrepresnting yourself and doing so in a manner than I would condemn.

A lot of new PUA is about improving your life. Yes, it is less than optimum to improve yourself to attract the opposite sex but it is still my opinion the a hell of a lot of human nature is down to attracting the opposite sex on some level.
Sex is, biologically speaking is second only to survival - and the only reason for that is simply because you cannot reproduce when your dead. Sex is also the core of Maslow's hierarchy of needs ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_h ... y_of_needs) and again this is due to it being equal in importance to food/water/air etc.
Now let's put things into a modern day, western world scenario (which is the main stage for PUA):
Air: This is pretty much covered everywhere in the world
Food and Water: the vast majority of people are not starving in the western world and clean water is on tap.
This then leaves SEX.

Regardless of PUA, people do nearly everything in their day to day life for one thing - sex (with the subconscious aim of reproducing). You wear the clothes you do to look good (sex). You work hard at your job to get a promotion to get more money (and get better things/pride = more sex). I hope you see the theme.

So yes, you could argue that improving yourself just to be more attractive is limiting - but that is a key motivator for pretty much everyone in everything they do regardless of if they are a PUA or not.
I disagree. People constantly manipulate themselves and others around them in pretty much everything they do. At interviews for jobs, at clubs and bars, with their friends and family etc etc etc people are manipulating.
I will use that person at the charity shop as an example again. While on the surface it seems like just doing it to feel good seems like enough - I would almost bet they get something more out of it.

For a start - I bet they TELL people they do it. This on it's own is a massive use of their charity work as a form of manipulation. I did charity work at a hospice for a few months, it was a great experience and I learnt a lot. Ultimately though I did it because I want to get into the medical profession. However, there was a girl there who was doing it to keep her rich parents off her back for not having a job. There was a old man there who worked there because his dad died at the hospice.
All of these people were doing it for ultimately selfish reasons at some level. Now, I appreciate they had a positive bi product of their actions (the good work they all did) - but I find it hard to believe anyone does it not to manipulate people in some way.
The footballers wife who works there doesn't NEED to. Hell, she could pay 2 full time staff who would probably do a better job - she does it to feel she is doing something and to also tell people so they don't call her a gold digger who does nothing. People always have motives, they will use everything they do to their advantage (manipulating other people).

So by your argument, does this mean someone who does charity work shouldn't tell a potential partner about their charity work because it will manipulate their opinion?
This is where nothing we say can change your opinion, because you are freely moving the goal posts. Things are fine IF, in your opinion, they are not terribly dishonest. A white lie is ultimately manipulative. You are changing their opinion/thoughts on something to serve your own purpose.
While it seems like telling a white lie is to not offend them (and therefore do something bad) that is NOT why people do it.
People do it because of how offending someone will make THEMSELVES feel. If you see a overweight man, you are not going to tell him he is fat. Not because it will upset him, but because of how him being upset will emotionally effect you! Yet again, this apparently innocent act is all driven by a very selfish and manipulative drive - your own emotional state.

How is a pick up artist saying a DHV any worse than that? Even if the DHV is a lie completely, yes it is a more dishonest but it ultimately has the same effect - both people feeling good. A alternative way of explaining this is with Hess's law: If a reaction can occur via many different routes, the overall enthalpy (energy) change will be the same. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hess's_law). All while both parties are satisfied by what is happening, be that with a relationship or a one night stand - does lying actually make any difference to how happy they are if they don't find out (assume hypothetically they will NEVER find out)?

Now I agree completely that hearts getting broken is never a good thing, but its a risk you run every time you try and and have a positive experience by sexually connecting with someone (or not being able to sexually connect with someone).

p.s. I read your original response at 00:45am where I am and thought I would post a quick reply, its not 1:18 and it wasn't so quick Please excuse any typo's or even sentences that don't make sense

Fin, Reo and Random

Dear god, how many times do I have to say it. I do not have a problem with casual sex! I have a problem if you're misrepresenting yourself via dishonesty or manipulation in order to have sex. Those are two very different things.

And why on earth do all of you have such a preoccupation with my sex life? I'm sorry, when, exactly did I make it a topic of this debate/discussion? For the record, I regret nothing that I have done either sexually or romantically.

Boyfriend destroyers are an examply of exactly why I dislike and distrust PU. If she's lying about having a boyfriend, she's doing it because she doesn't want to be approached by you. If she does have a boyfriend, then, in most cases, you're just being a spoiled brat who cares about nothing but his own pleasure, however pathetic it may be. (The exceptions being cases when women are in genuinely bad relationships with abusvie guys. Then I don't object to the use of a boyfriend destroyer.)

I also never said that you could remove someone's free will. Yes, there is always a choice, but if one has been systematically and deliberately denied the information necessary to make a choice, the resulting decision will not be a free and honest one.

Random, I am not your enemy. I am not a personification of everything that you so vehemently blame for everything that has gone wrong in your life. I have not stopped you from doing anything. I don't set rules for anyone apart from myself. I have opinions, and I may condemn what you do (I don't know if I do or not because you haven't clarified your methods) but , honestly, what effect does that have on you? You're never going to get approval from everyone on this planet, and I (some random women on the internet) am hardly the threat or the force that you make me out to be.

Madals,

A quick note, I really need to go.

We then understand the term manipulation differently. Yours appears to be more all-encompasing than my own. We have reached an impass--necesaary and informative, but not necessarily something that can be bridged.

Maslow's hiearchy of needs actually doesn't incorporate sex. It would be in the third third, love and belonging, far below self-actualization. I believe I recall hearing that his theory was considered quite outdated in any case.

Arguing with me is difficult because my opinions are always in motion, particularly when pressed. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's just how it is. My understaning of lammentable dishonesty and mianipulation is related to my understanding of self-presentation. So long as the deeper, core truths are displayed, you can fudge the details, basically.

There are so many things wrong with this paragraph I don't know where to start, and I really should be going to bed!

1) Women don't lie about having a boyfriend because they dont want to be approached by you. They lie to TEST. So much of human nature is simply testing. If she says she has a boyfriend, is the guy trying to pick her up going to be intmidated by this? Lose interest? Feel he obviously has no chance? Is he genuinely interested in her and not just hitting on her?
Don't get me wrong, if a woman she says she has a boyfriend after 10mins of talking to me and hasn't shown me any signs she is attracted to me then sure - she is clearly happy. However, if she says she has a boyfriend before I get "hello" out - she has judged me before she even knows anything about me or what I am like. Personally, I feel that is a little unfair as for a start she has no idea as to my intentions with her.
Sorry, but this is plain wrong. Yes, there is obviously an element of self pleasure from getting laid or winning her off another guy whatever. But I strongly believe many women have self esteem issues that make them believe that a guy is the best she can get (not just an abusive guy - a boring guy - a ugly guy - a guy with no ambition whatever).
I think in a lot of ways you are living in a fairy tale world where a prince marries a princess and they live happily ever after. They don't. Regardless of what the media and Disney tell you - people in a relationship are always open to the idea of something better.
Now, obviously if you have been together for 5 years you wont hop on the next best thing that comes along - not because of a deep romantic connection - because you value the trust/support/investment you have made in your current relationship and you are not going to risk it on a chance with something slightly better that you have very little information about. This links back to sexual security and how regular average sex is better biologically than a 1 time shot with a better partner for reproduction (which is ultimately the aim of all sex).
That being said, everyone will have their cut off point. If your idea of a perfect man comes along - you would seriously consider leaving your current boyfriend. This is not a fault in your character, its just what is biologically hard-wired into your brain. (also, if you try to say your current boyfriend is perfect I will instantly lose all respect for you as nobody is perfect and to think so is naive). This is where boyfriend destroyers are maybe immoral in some situations, but still lead to a good end result (refer back to my previous post about lying vs honesty as to how that effects this matter).

Right, defiantly off to bed now

This thread=Head explode

I've lost a point to the thread, this is nothing to be won here or to learn from. Its just an explosion of thoughts that are loosely correlated.

Putting on makeup is conscious manipulation, I put on make up that makes people think I am attractive/more attractive

Anchor attraction feeling in girls mind conscious manipulation, I put suggestion into her head to make her think I am attractive/more attractive

I dont see a difference, if I can see that she is just wearing make up I will see through the illusion, but why I'll just feel worse. If I see through an anchoring by NLP as its just an illusion I'll feel worse. Living by the rigid rules of what is manipulation and what to do about it will make you live rigid yourself, as we see you are Melissa.
I agree as I am trying to say as well, for now I have something to live by, interaction for the most good. lol. I like it though

_________________
Inner game is the core, outer game is just an expression of it