Chief may have already hit this, but I'll drop in my ten cents on this really quickly.

When you go out every day, you're communicating, whether you like it or not. This communication will influence people. Since you're already influencing people whether you like it or not, I consider learning pickup to be the ONLY moral thing to do.

If you're a shitty communicator projecting a negative vibe, you're hurting the world. By improving your life and communication, you're helping others.

In short, getting laid is really just a by-product of becoming a cooler, more confident communicator.

_________________
Don't hate, just dominate.

Once again, there are far too many replies for me to respond to individually, so I'll just highlight the main complaints/observations here.

First off, this is simply how I write. I'm not doing it to impress anyone, or to make others feel inferior. It is simply how I communicate. I see no advantage to "dumbing down" my language and syntex in order to have a broader appeal. I have long since (as should be quite evident) given up trying to tailor my writing, opinions, ect. in order to try and please others.

The makeup/push-up bra point is one that I have already answered earlier in this thread. If you're going to argue with me, the least that you could do is actually read the thread. It gets quite tedious to have to repeat myself all the time. In Summary: (a) I never denied that people either intentionally or unintenionally try to manipulate one another nearly all the time, (b) I never said that all forms of manipulation were inherently bad, (c) I said that my dislike of PU stemmed from a culmination of 3 factors--the dishonesty, its manipulative aspects, and its effect upon the PU artist. Unlike superficial things like makeup, PU actually changes how the PUA thinks. Again, this alone is not an indictment: most important experiences or learning opportunities change how we think. I simply do not condone how PU changes how PUAs think.

Despite its overriding emphasis on sex, relationships (in this sense romantic relationships) are or cannot be reduced to the sum of their members' sexual organs. From what I have seen, there are inherent objectifying and/or misogenistic elements in PU. Despite all of the platitudes that PUAs love to spout off (leave her better than you found her being the most common) PU is an unapolegetically selfish activity, as can be evidenced by such things as boyfriend destroyers. PUAs, by and large, do not appear to care about what happens to the other person. You see a girl, you want to have sex with her, and you try to make it happen, regardless of whatever stands in your way (a boyfriend/finance/husband, beliefs that premarital sex is wrong, ect). And PUAs use manipulation and/or dishonesty to do it. That I will not, and could never, condone.

The idea that everything balances out in the end so everything goes in laughably simplistic. Have you never heard the childhood phrase, "Two wrongs don't make a right?" Despite my dislike of such phrases and learning tools, they often do have a point. The wrong that you suffered at the hands of person A is not compensated for by the wrong that you do to person B. The score does not, nd cannot, even out in the sense that you are describing. (Your definition of karma is also wrong, by the way. That's the colloquial understanding--karma's origin and origonal meaning is not captured by such a simplification.) This is partly because of the reality that, according to your argument, this "evening out" occurs across a whole society, rather than to the same specific individuals. Human experience cannot be aggregated in such a manner.

Random,

So PU is a necessary response to marketing techniques? That's so absurb that it's hardly even worth the effort of refuting. And what, pray tell, exactly gives you the authority necessary to dictate what human nature actually is or should be?

If you want to avoid people who have less than pure motives, you would be best with a PUA.
I am in a LTR with an amazing woman (and I am a mod on a PUA forum :O ). I have never cheated - I could have many times, but I haven't. Why? Because I like my relationship.
A guy who is an AFC is content with his relationship, not happy. He came across a woman who he isn't physically repelled by and as is willing to spread her legs for him and he decided to call her his "girlfriend" to basically sign up for semi-regular sex. If he is out in town with his mates and a hot woman makes a move on him - he is a lot more likely to take it than most PUA's would because he is used to having less options available to him. The PUA on the other hand was used to being able to have a large choice of sexual partners yet he has found one he likes for less superficial reasons.
The PUA also doesn't need to get into an exclusive relationship if he doesnt want to, as if he wants to have a casual thing there are more than enough women open to that idea.

Going back to your idea of pure intentions think of these situations (all are generally speaking, there are obviously exceptions to the rules).

"I bought this for you"
AFC: "I got this for you so you might have sex with me"
PUA: "I got this for you because I know you would like it"

"I love you"
AFC: "I think there is a chance you will sleep with me, maybe this will convince you"
PUA: "I actually love you"

Girls says "What shall we do today?"
AFC: "What would you like to do" - *If she decides maybe she will have sex with me*
PUA: "Lets go to X, Y and Z - they look so awesome" - *there are some cool things I have considered doing and I would like to experience them with you*


New's flash. Most men lie, most women lie. Pretty much everyone lies. Remember when your best friend said those shorts didn't make your ass look fat? she probably lied The only thing that changes is WHY people lie. Men who don't have options available to them lie to get something (sex).

Madals,

You may subscribe to your version of what a PUA is, I'll subscribe to mine. I do not deny that there is no monolithic view or purpose to which all PUAs. Like all organizaions, persuasions or affliations, all of the people within it will not be same.

That said, PUAs are not all as noble as you make them out to be. If they were, why are there such things as boyfriend destroyers? Not everyone that PUAs try them on is going to be in a terrible relationship (meaning a relationship that the world is better off without--abusive, ect.). Why are there all of these attempts at frame control? Why are there the games, such as the one posted in the most recent Ross Jefferies thread, where the PUA deliberately tries to position himself as somone with deep insight into the woman's personality/innermost self by spouting off observations/cold readings that would actually fit a majority of the human population? I mean, seriously, who doesn't sometimes zone out while someone else is talking to them and start daydreaming? (As an aside, this is partly what I mean when I argue that PUAs are dishonest. There is no lie contained in what he did, but I still consider it to be fundamentally dishonest because he is portraying himself as being something--someone with deep insight into her character--that he is not.)

AFCs are also not all as desperate and pathetic as you make them out to be. I know that it fits the PU mantra, but the reality is that some of them are just as happy and fulfilled in their relationships as PUAs are. In some cases, I would actually argue that they are more satisfied due to a fallacy of human thinking. Choice is good, but more choice is not always better. Too much choice can have a paralyzing effect upon the human pysche: one can either refuse to choose, or one can become caught in a repetitve cycle because "there's always something/somone out there that/who is better, I just have to keep looking." The reality is that one's ascent up the ladder of quality can only go so far. Being trapped in a repetive cycle where on thinks there is always something better is incredibly damaging.

Most people do lie--the difference is not just in motives, but the scope of lie. I can and do distrust what people say based on both dimensions.

Hobbit,

First off, if you can find statistics, I'd love to see them. Somehow I highly doubt that there are any and, even if there were, I'd still be susicicous until the methods via which they were created are fully disclosed. I have enough basic knowledge about statistics to know, in many cases, whether or not the results have been manipulated vie shoddy or questionable methods of gathering the information that you desire.

My arguments here are based on what I've read, watched and experienced. Yes, I realize that there is a slight fallacy here since I'm not arguing facts, but, so long as the facts do not exist, I have little choice in the matter.

There is only 1 difference between a PUA and every other guy on the planet when it comes to "boyfriend destroyers" and that is PUA's gave it a name.
I can think of about 5 guys this week who have tried to hit on my GF (male friends) and all of them tried to run "boyfriend destroyers". Non of them have any clue on PUA.

I am not saying you should trust all PUA's. I am not saying all PUA's are honest. What I am trying to make you see is that you are saying "I need to be careful of those dishonest PUA's" - it makes very little difference they are PUA's but simply that they are human.

Any guy who finds you attractive will try to manipulate you into liking him. So why limit yourself to avoiding PUA's?

As for your argument that changing themselves is worse than superficially changing themselves it just doesn't make sense. They are not being dishonest if they have actually changed - they are simply a better person.
It's like saying someone who carries around a guitar is better than someone who learns to play it.
Why is it wrong for a guy to learn what a women wants and to pick up on her signals? How is it manipulative and dishonest to pay attention to what a woman is saying and to comment on parts of it your interested about?

Madals,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVuYdsSJmX4

That's the video that I was referring to. In it, Ross Jefferies basically goes up to a woman and says "Hello. I'll bet your the kind of person that..." In this case, the "that" is the kind of person who has a very vivid imagination and can imagine themselves at their favorite vacation spot while someone else is talking to them. Name me one person to whom that observation doesn't apply. He's doing it in manner of where he's clearly trying to establish a large amount of rapport very quickly by positioning himself as someone who has a deep understanding of her soul. That is dishonest, because he's pretending to be something that he isn't. He doesn't have any mystical insight, he has a bunch of gimicks and the ability to fool people who don't know any better.

"As for your argument that changing themselves is worse than superficially changing themselves it just doesn't make sense. They are not being dishonest if they have actually changed - they are simply a better person."

That's the rub--you define them as a better person. I define them as someone who better knows how to exploit others.

I don't just distrust PUAs. I distrust any guy that I class as a bad boy or a player. Much of what PU teaches just happens to fall into those two categories.

I felt I had to comment on this because as a normal person who enjoys this as a hobby with no intention of manipulating anyone I feel I have to defend it.

This is what I will say about PU and "the game" in general. As someone who has been around guys his whole life ( All boy's schools, fraternity, sports, etc) I will say that it seems the guys who get laid the most are typically the most grimy and by that I mean the ones that will attempt to get a girl by any means outside of what will land them in a courtroom and that includes telling them whatever dominating there frame and generally just having good "natural game" which they got from experience rather than a book. I have never and still am not someone who ever want to have to stoop down to the level some of these guys stoop to to get laid. I am also not someone who has ever looked at a woman as just a lay as trust me many men do. I learn PU because its fun, makes my life more fulfilling ( in a lot more ways than simply picking up woman), and becuase when I want a girl I want to be able to properly communicate to her that I like her in a way that wont be returned negatively.

Im a nice guy who wants to know how to get woman without looking at them as sex objects or without being super grimy. Whatever personal problems you have with teh community are your own but PU is like anything else it can be abused or it can be used correctly and a lot of the philosophies behind it are there to enrich a woman's life not to break it down. Most of the people in the community are either nice guys who are tired of getting hurt and MANIPULATED by the woman they like or guys who would like to be able to be with the woman they like rather than have to settle ( which is bad for both sides).

Men and woman feel and communicate differently and its this communication difference that leads to the many problems men and woman have. Most of what pickup is is really just speaking to a woman in her language and I know this because the longer i do this the more I see the stuff I am using get used on me where it previously would have been misinterpreted. Its about begin honest and having the confidence to make a move when its appropriate. I had a very interesting conversation in a club with a woman the other day that opened my eyes.

Me: what the biggest thing that makes you walk away from a guy
HB: boredom
Me: so youd rather a guy be overly sexual than boring
HB: ya that atleast entertaining but to be honest you shouldnt be tryign to meet girls here during the day youll meet much better quality girls.
Me: but how do you start a convo during the day?
HB: Idk just ask about a carrot or something doesn't rlly matter. Its really all about acting like you dont need them but youd like to have them in yoru life
Me: but how do I do that
HB: you practice it just dont let us know that you did.

So yes BF destroyers can be a bit manipulative and lines and routines can at times be a bit dishonest but still no more so or even less than the shit a lotta guys will do and have done to get girls.
At the end of the day its a game there really is no way around it. If you want a partner you have to play the game. The rules were made out of millions of years of evolution and are in no way fair or rite. Pickup teaches you how to play the game a bit better and with that power hopefully also comes some sence of responsibility (which every method ive ever seen seems to express in one way or another) that many naturals and AFCs ive known do not have.

P.S. to Mellisa: Your going to laugh when you marry a guy and look back on PU and realize that a lot of the stuff here is what made you attracted to him in the first place. If a man didn't do any of the things here they wouldn't be attractive and therefore you wouldn't be with him just a thought.

_________________
A woman's whole life is a history of the affections. ~Washington Irving

Melissa ... I think you are a bit confused. It's not the PU theory that makes some men manupulative and unnoble, it is the man himself who choses how to use the PU theory and to be manupulative and unnoble.

You should remember this. It's not the theory who makes the choices. In the end it's the person with the knowledge who choses. Not the other way round.
In the world, there manupulative people and there are people who are not. Actualy, being manupulative doens't have to be bad. For example: all commercials are manupulative, Obama is manupulative, everyone actualy is. But does commercials hurt you personally? No. It maybe hurts your wallet, but not you.

So now I will change my sentence. There are good people in the world, and there are bad people in the world. Just keepin it simple, you can debate hours about this but I won't. The point is, PU is like a weapon. You can conquer with it. The thing is: how are you going to use it? Weapons can be used to protect people, and to save innocent people from other bad people. But it can also be used to hurt others. It all depends on how you use it, and for what purpous.

And like everywhere, in the PU community, you have people with bad intentions. They are frustrated, maybe want revenge, just want to lay every girl and dump them afterwards. They don't care about consequences and the rules attached to PU. The same goes with weapons. When you buy a gun, you have to prove yourself to the law, you must have a licence, signing a degree that you won't use it for bad purposes, like killing people. Unfortunately, some people do have these bad purposes.

Then you have people, who talk very cool about their succeses, like "yeah, after that date, I fucked her. When I got home, I got this text message from this other girls, asking me to come over ...". You know this behavior. But remember, you might read some shocking stuff here, but this site remains a men society. You should know that guys talk cool about stuff with other men. Maybe they want to impress. Just like girls, guys are also very sexual about stuff. Like girls wonder with their friends how big the dick of a specific guy would be, guys are sexual. But while acting very cool about stuff, guys can have other motives. Maybe he acts that way because he had bad experiences with relationships? Maybe he is just unable to realy be in love, no matter how much he might admire people. Maybe he wants to hide these motives by acting cool. You don't know. We're walking people, not some senseless programmed robots.

Then you have people who seriously want to improve. Ever questioned why people learn this stuff? Not because they want to lay 100 girls without emotion. But because they want to be loved. Some people were shit during high school, 'having no friends, problems at home, and so on. All they want is people to love them, to have affection.
PU does not only learn to get you laid, but if you go deeper and deeper in this stuff, you'll see that it actualy helps you to become a healthy person. Healthy in mind. It helps you deal with some very deep issues and frustrations. It's very hard to learn inner game. Yet, it helps you. PU also learns how to treat women: by teasing them, yes, but also by respecting them. To see them not as walking pussies, but as persons.
People with not the greatest intentions don't learn that stuff or see it as for the weak.

I highly respect people who go all the way with PU. Why? Because they don't give up. You see PUAs as people who act very hard, tough, rude,... against girls, but remember: they are much more hard, tough, rude, ... against themself than to girls because to reach their goal, they had to deal with very deep issues like identity, confidence, they had to come out of their comfort zone, deal with multiple rejections and humiliations and still go on.

Naturals might be as rude, hell, maybe even way more rude than PUAs. Btw, the people you call AFC in your post are actualy not AFC. Not all non-PUAs are AFC. Per definition, an AFC is an AVERAGE FRUSTRATED CHUMP, meaning he is frustrated, wants pussy all the time, desperate, don't know how to interact, and don't know how to treat women. Nerds aren't necessairly AFC.
The only difference between a natural and a real PUA is: a natural learned to seduce women by experiences and interactions throughout their life with their parents, people they met, etc.; while PUAs learned it from theories, because the way society taught them to do deal with girls or people in general was insuficiant or just wrong. Their skills remain more or less the same. It might be true that your boyfriend hasn't heard of PU communities before, that doesn't mean that he doesn't know the same rules.

And trust me, PUAs don't use PU stuff with less noble or bad intentions more than naturals.

That said, I hope you understand my, or ours point of view now, and I hope you see PUAs more as more human (that they can be good people), just as anyone else now, not just as brainwashed dishonest heart breakers.

Now I'm interested: has a PUA ever broke your heart in real life? Because I think it must be a deep thing because after all these people gave you valid and honest, good answers, you're still quite stubborn

_________________
You WANT to make a change.
You CAN make a change.
You WILL make a change.

Ambitious to be succesfull => Shyler

Here's the way I see it. Life is full of joy and heartbreak. Being a PUA has allowed me to approach life from a different angle, and generally I like to think I am spreading more love than I am hurting people. Is it right or wrong? When you walk past a beautiful girl on the street and don't say anything, how does that feel? Is it right or wrong?

If its eating you up, you can always just tell girls straight up that your not looking for a relationship right now. Not only will they appreciate your honesty, it shows that you are preselected by other women and that you have the ability to choose who you sleep with

_________________
"That's right, I said it, I meant it, I'm here to represent it." - Hank Moody

So you distrust people who tend to be the most honest.
People who are "nice" are very often only doing things to get something - thereby being dishonest.
"bad boys" simply don't do what they dont want to and will happily tell you your hot and what they want to do to you - honest.

Also, your whole basis is you don't like manipulative people like PUA's, bad boys or players. Yet all you are really saying is you don't like people who you KNOW are manipulative. So basically, since we all know everyone is manipulative to some degree, you like people who are manipulative but you don't know about it. Therefore they are hiding their manipulative nature and as a result are being dishonest. Refer back to my PUA vs AFC examples as to why they are being dishonest.

A good example of this is "the attraction code" by Vin DiCarlo where he suggests the following way of communication.
Intent ---> focus ----> state ----> expression.
Your intent is what you want to say: I find you attractive
Your focus is what you are concentrating on: (pua) - the attractive qualities about you.... (afc) your xyz lie that I think you will like me saying
Your state is what is effecting you: (Pua)"your concentrating on the moment so nothing".... (afc) "I hope she doesn't realise I want sex, I bet if I drive half way across town to get her keys she wont notice I only did it to increase my chances of having sex with her"
What you express is what actually shows after you your intent has been affected by your focus and state: (pua) "I find you attractive".... (afc) "I am nervous, acting creepy, but still nice".

As far as guys are concerned there are only ways they think about you (in a sexual way):
1) Not attracted to you
2) Attracted to you and trying to hide it
3) Attracted to you and are obvious about it

Personally, I think 2 is the most dishonest, but that is what most "nice" guys are doing....

I unfortunately think you are not going to change your opinion no matter what people say to you - you have your opinion and your sticking to it

I think Melissas point is an important one to have flung aroud now and again.

Though I don't feel she holds her view for moral or ethical reasons, nor do I think her view is accurate when you consider the large stereotype it assumes or the actual demogrpahics. I mean hell, surely the negative responce that she has recieved is evidence of some sense of morals within the individuals concerned.

But a strong one none-the-less.

A question to consider is, as despicable as some people are, do we have a perogative to change them by editing our writings?

It's up to the author obviously, but should an author be pressured to include ethical disclamiers?

Personally, I feel good ethics is the backbone to good PU, but regardless it is a thought worth mulling over.

Once again, too much to respond to individually, but I'll try to hit the major points.

I can say with complete confidence that I've never dated a PUA. And I'm not being delusional when I say this, although you'll just have to take my word for it since I don't feel like detailing my entire dating history on this site.

I would agree that there are two kinds of people who are drawn to PU: those who were the akward, inept guys in high school who couldn't get a girl (both Gambler and AFC Adam fit into this category, I believe) and those who go into it with, shall we say, slightly more maniacal intentions. I honestly don't object to PU because I object to casual sex--as long as everyone is honest, I don't care what you do. It's the honesty bit that's the rub.

I can sympathize with the first group--heck, I was one of them in high school (except not male), not an ugly duckling, but socially inept. We grow up, we move on, and we get on with life. I think the PU route is a dangerous one to go down, however, for the reasons that I've already outlined. I don't trust it. I don't trust people who use manipulative means to try and establish a large amount of rapport quickly. (The Ross Jefferies video is an example of this, some of the games such as the cube do this, cold reading to some extent furthers this as well.)

It's also a question of what draws people to a particular theory, and with PU I see a possibility for more harm than good. There are other, more conducive routes to improving one's success with the opposite gender.

Fair enough that I slightly misclassified an AFC--ppl on this site often tend to speak as though you're either an AFC or a PUA. But, as always, dicotomies are seldom true, and I thank you for that correction.

I also dispute that the bad boys/players tend to be more honest. In many cases, they're also fulfilling a role that they feel other people around them value for some reason or other. Not everyone who is nice is also out to manipulate people in the way that you describe. Truly pulling the wool over someone's eyes and being able to sustain it long-term is actually quite difficult. Generally, if someone is trying to pull something over you, you just have to wait for them to reveal themselves. The rub is when emotions become involved, of course, and we stop paying attention to what other people are revealling via either their actiosn or words.

And all of you are correct, I am ridicously stubborn. Trying to completely change my mind is a foregone conclusion, paricularly given things such as the Ross Jefferies video that I posted below. So far as I know, there is no concievable way that anyone could convice me that isn't a manipulative, misleading thing to do. (Although I would be quite impressed if someone managed to convince me that it wasn't.) One thing that you have to realize, though, is that I don't think all PUAs are bad people. I may have a firm policy against ever getting involved with one, but you must realize that almost all of my policies also have exceptions (something that I usually don't make clear because I don't want to encourage anyone. It's kind of like saying, "I never sleep with guys until the third date, but there are occassional exceptions to that rule." Telling him that defeats all purpose of having the rule in the first place.)

You are thinking of PUA as just a method to get laid. You should definitely check the morals and ethics PUA gurus put out there alongside their DVDs and methods.

If you have ever watched any of Gambler's DVDs or read any of his books, he always adds a note stating that the material he is giving you is powerful and that you should only use it if you are not going to break the girl's heart afterwards.

What you and other PUAs should do before setting out on their journey is map out exactly what you want to get out of in this journey. Do you want to get married? Do you want to get 100+ lays before settling down? Do you want to begin dating so you can eventually find "the one"?

I'm 17 years old and I have decided that I just want to get as many lays as possible at the moment because I'm young and I have my whole life ahead of me. BUT!! This does not mean I am going to say to girls that they are special and that I want to marry them just to get into their knickers and then leave them the next morning without a trace.

What I am trying to say is that you need to game differently depending on what you want to get out of it. For example, if I just want a lay then I will tell her that I am not dating and that I am just looking for a bit of fun. That way, if I do have sex with her, she doesn't expect anymore out of it and she will not be heartbroken.

Hope this helps you decide to stick with the PUA community

Magic-J

_________________
When the lights turn off I turn on

I sincerely understand your point of view, Melissa. The stuff Ross Jeffries tries to teach, is very creepy. Also, the book "The Game" gives an impression of PUAs as manipulative people, using routines to reach their goal: getting laid thousands of times, by saying the same thing to those thousands girls (although I think
Style is a good guy). Imagining being a girl, knowing about the pua stuff, then a guy coming up, trying to hypnotise like RJ or sarge you like Mystery ... it must almost look like they are trying to rape you.

I'm happy to say that now, there is more to pick up than this. Forget about Ross Jeffries and Mystery. I stay with my statement that it's not the theory, but the person who acts good or bad, again to put it very simple. You look like a creep, a maniac, if you literally repeat word after word, routine after routine with every single girl.

Secondly, "dishonesty" should be better defined. It's bad to say "I realy like you as a person" why you just seek an easy lay.
But what if you're in a bar, or better, a shopping mall, and you see this girl who is beautiful to you, the way she walks is like she is dancing, gently, and she has this intriguing look in her face, dreaming, but wondering, and she has a killer smile ...
But you don't know what to say. You're in a shopping mall. But you can't let her just go, you will regret it. You sincerly want to get to know her better, you want to explore her world, you're interested what kind of person she is.
But first, you have to start a conversation in order to get to know her better. But you don't want to be direct because you don't want to scare her off.

Are you then dishonest if you walk up to her, ask on opinion, you lie that your sister has her birthday tomorrow and you hope she might give you advice? Is that dishonest if you want to ask questions about the girl herself, want to get to know her better with little routines attached, after you used the opener?

Are you then a dishonest, manipulative person with bad intentions? It's debateable, but I personaly don't think so. I personaly don't prefer to lie and I would maybe use an other opener, but is one small lie in order to achieve things with good purposes bad?

I also agree with Melissa that being nice doesn't mean being dishonest. It might be, but saying it like that is WAY too generalise.

And like Madals says, being attracted to someone and trying to hide it, is not lying either. I rather keep it a mystery than saying "you're hot" and get blown out immediatly. I leave the words "you're beautiful to me" to a girl with whom I'm in a relationship, who I realy like and who deserves it.

I'm not going to make the post longer now. I have an exam tomorrow, it's 12pm, I'm tired, and going to sleep.

Anyway, I hope you're now convinced Melissa that the PU stuff isn't going to make you have bad intentions, but the personality of the person, who might use it the wrong way and choses only the theories that he likes can help the person with his bad intentions.

_________________
You WANT to make a change.
You CAN make a change.
You WILL make a change.

Ambitious to be succesfull => Shyler