I have certainly benefited from pickup literature in many ways. I became more social, outgoing and confident. I also got a higher self-esteem. But now I have a ticking point which throws me off balance.

How can using different techniques to seduce women be RIGHT thing to do. I believe building a better personality which is also more attractive to women is good, but I have serious concerns about how different techniques used by majority of guys with intention to get laid is correct? How moral is it to make girls fall in love with you, ruin relationships, hurt girls' feelings just to get sex and feed the ego. I'll tell you how I thought of this. In my first post I described the situation about a girl which I really liked, I was looking for ways to take her although she had a boyfriend, because I thought that their relationship is not serious and she is right for me. I renewed contact, but now I can see that these two love each other, and even if I could, I would never hurt their relationship even if I liked the girl A LOT- so that I even can say that I fell for her. Now many guys out there really don't care about these girls. But they also have feelings and they deserve happiness. If we learn techniques to attract them, to make them happy for some time, because they think that we are the RIGHT guys, and then just break all relationships after some time. How can this be right. Sorry for such a long post but I'm really puzzled. I don't want my happiness to be based on other peoples' unhappiness. Peace.

answer question please-or even you-yourself don't think that this is right? I hate not being able to get a girl I really like, but if I start doing unjust, I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to call myself a man! I want to see if there is a way of getting a girl you love to love you without causing sufferibg to hundreds of other girls while practicing???

Right now the only response I can think of is "it's you or them". Basicly, women (usally)have a ton of options, and maybe without even knowing it, hurt a lot of guys. All you are doing is turning the tables and having options yourself. Most guys don't have many. And from my experiance, if you turn her down, as she has done to many men, she will be hurt.
You can sit in a bar and watch a guy get turned down 5+ times, he won't care. Or at least he will act like he doesn't. Infact, it is part of most PUA's training to learn how to deal with it. Girls on the other hand freak out if they are turned down. Heance the "NEG". Turn her " I want a relastionship" down after you lay her and it only gets worse...
I have been searching for a way to avoid this myself and have tried a few different approches, with out any GREAT results. I really belive in "leave her better than you found her" but it hasn't been working so well lately.
Someone please post something positive...

Realistically, good social skills are important. Likewise, it's also important to be able to vary which social skills you use in a particular situation. Most people don't respond differently in all social groups and situations--what you say to your friends is not necessarily appropriate to say to your boss, for instance. To that extent, I can endorse some of the inner-game ideals and such. Learning to talk to people is an invaluable skill that everyone should strive to acquire.

Where I diverge is that I don't hold with all of the misdirection and dishonesty that I suspect is an integral part of the PUA community regardless of whether people admit it or not. I consider it, quite frankly, to be immoral. Honesty should always be a component of every relationship (expansive use of the term relationship here to denote a sustained series of interactions between people, not necessarily the boyfriend/girlfriend thing). Teaching people techniques runs perilously close to obscurring either the truth or reality, whichever term you'd prefer.

PU teaches men how to manipulate women. I don't care what kind of spin you put on it, that's what it does. The reality of life is that all people almost constantly attempt to manipulate each other all of the time, whether it is conscious or not. Actively studying the most effective ways to manipulate people is something else--I could never fully trust anyone who had either studied or learned that. What is seen cannot be unseen, and even once what has been learned is no longer useful it can still impact one's thought processes and/or behaviours.

(And that's without me getting started on the whole sexual focus of PUA, as well as its apparent disregard for anyone apart from the individual PUA himself, as is evidenced by such things as boyfriend-destroyers and attempts to transform women's worldviews).

alls fair in love and war.

This very question is a delusion of the ego.

You can't make girls fall in love with you. You can't make them do anything. You aren't the one in charge when a seduction is moving forward.

When it comes to girls with boyfriends, the very simple truth is...

You CANNOT make her cheat if she is in a completely fulfilling relationship. You CANNOT make her cheat if she isn't thinking of cheating already. So, in the situation you described, you wouldn't be able to get her no matter how hard you tried. If she was hiding a deep dark secret that she holds some growing contempt for her boyfriend, though, that's gonna lead her to cheat if you pull the right boyfriend destroyer on her.

I don't waste time on girls who tell me that they love their boyfriends in a sincere tone. This isn't so much for moral reasons as it is for logistical reasons. I just know that it's not going to work. Claiming it to be a moral issue would be an egotistical delusion.
I'm sorry that Mystery gave you that impression. Now how about giving guys like me, Zan Perrion, 60 YOC, Johnny Soporno, and all those other honest PUAs you've never even heard of some credit for once? Don't spit in all our faces just because one mainstream douchebag taught fucking magic tricks. Thanks.

And I'm sorry to hear that you could never fully trust a make up artist, Melissa. I really do enjoy women who have on great make up; I like being manipulated into seeing a girl as more beautiful through make up that accentuates the beauty in her face.

There's a difference between makeup and PU, Chief. Makeup isn't something that changes who you are. When all is said and done, even plastic surgery is only superficial. Studying PU, to some extent, does change who you are. It changes how you respond to things, it changes how you percieve the world and other people, and it changes how you think.

And when I say techniques, I'm not just talking about unnatural game. Naturals teach techniques as well, although their techniques are far less scripted.

Women dont like (or fuck) nice guys!

Would you rather be a AFC with no clue (or balls).

Women manupulate men all the time and people see nothing wrong with it, why do we have to have a conscience.


[/quote]

I don't see what's so horrible about changing your views so that you become more optimistic instead of dwelling in a victim mentality, and all those other changes associated with learning pickup. You're almost making it sound like superficial change is better than real change.

I was addressing your mistrust of people who use manipulation, as in the act of consciously guiding other peoples' perceptions of you in way that benefits you, which is something that both makeup and pickup achieve.

And, in my strongest of opinions, it's a lot better to "manipulate" people into thinking highly of you by legitimately changing yourself into a person that people would think highly of than to manipulate people into thinking highly of you via superficial means.

Chief

I become more and more interested in natural game myself, and I'm about to start exploring Zan Perrion's view on PU. I hope what you are saying about girls who are in love woth their boyfriends is true, although I doubt it.

I think becoming a better person is good, but manipulating others using different "tricks" and "techniques" is just wrong. A great example of thet is NLP-guys who use tricks to manipulate others...to take their revenge because most likely they've been hurt by women...a lot. I've been hurt myself, but after I started understanding women to some extent I have mush better opinion of them no, than I used to. Basically, I share Zan Perrion's views on PU, but I'm really worried about widespread use of NLP and other methods using different manipulative techniques...like SS or MM. Once again: I hope these techniques aren't powerful enough to destroy healthy relationships...

You can use any technology to do either good or bad. NLP itself isn't a bad thing. It's just a means of expression like any other method of pickup and art.

In terms of anything being "powerful enough to destroy healthy relationships," let me tell you about an experience I had.

I once knew a girl who was in a relationship of 4 years. We fooled around... and her boyfriend found out. They broke up. Then they eventually got back together. Was their relationship destroyed? Looks alright now. Was it ultimately strengthened? Probably. Would she have cheated on him with me if the relationship were 100% "healthy?" No. Is it healthier now? Who knows?

Take from that what you will, but, you know, it's not about power.

To the OP.

When you advance beyond that Mystery stage you will see that PU is in fact self improvement. That was the point all along.

_________________
I'm not trying to be a dick Ezo, but you're being a Pick Up Snob in my opinion.

bbardot: you just reminded me about porn

Chief, you made a powerful point

However

Is it possible to have a relationship that is 100% heathly relationship? Wouldn't that make both parties of the relationship perfect? .....

Perfection is the goal; how many ever achieve this?


Fuze

Chief, I don't object to many of the self-improvement goals of PU. Improving your social skills, learning to talk to the opposite sex, attempting self-improvement to feel better about yourself--all of these are things that I support.

Where I diverge is in my feelings about systematically learning to manipulate the opposite gender. Such learning changes how one thinks forever, and not in a good way.

Makeup doesn't change how you think. Surgery can, depending upon what issue is addressed (if one has a disfiguring scar or some other deformity, for instance, and gets it corrected). Botox and other such measures don't--or at least, not much. Not all changes in how one thinks or in one's personality are necessarily bad. PU, however, I consider to morally damaging. I could never trust anyone who has actually studied it as a student rather than, as I am doing, learning about it so that I know what to avoid.

Melissa,

You'll benefit more from breaking down the dividers to see how we are all the same instead of trying to avoid others based on what you see as differences.

And, besides: when push comes to shove, you can always say no, and you can always walk away.