Thats your interpretation... Pretty annoying since you know exactly what I mean but choose not to in order to make a point.

Of course women are logical, can communicate logically as well as men. Its just that women often prefer to focus on emotional stuff rather than logical. Or correction. Mix emotions into the logical thinking. Which is logical if you can handle it, but does not necessarily seem logical to men who most of the time dont make an effort to think emotionally as well as logically.

Just as a nice example I will take your statement to the dissection table. I said a general thing about women. You take offense (that is emotional) because you are a woman and feel that you are logical, at least as logical as any man. So, you get emotional. So you mix emotions into the discussion. Now, I get where you are coming from so I can see why you take it up, however, that post very clearly showed us all that I was right.

And dont tell me that your post wasnt emotional rather than logical.

Im not passing judgement on what is right and wrong here...

_________________
I'm not trying to be a dick Ezo, but you're being a Pick Up Snob in my opinion.

bbardot: you just reminded me about porn

Here ends the arugment true statistics if this all would have been false then the pay gap would be based soley on discrimination
Now if women did do as well as men the all female firm should be outputting the same amount hence an all female firm would give more profit to the boss.

Here's a list of jobs that men will NOT get Generally this will push significantly more men to harder but higher paying full-time low level jobs in the trades(plumbers, electrictions, laborers, any construction)
I honestly dont care. its my fault I'm not making more no one else's
interesting
Inarguable logic sicne the corporation is lead by a women no one is affecting her pay
I would hire someone for 2/3 pay for same work anyday even if they were a chimpanzee and threw bananas at me.
Economic theory would have women dominating the job market if they got paid less, This is simple logical math that any male CEO would follow more money in CEO's pocket. Just like how many landscape companies hire mexicans(illegals) no offense to mexican but they do it for less and no we have an illegal problem because of economic theory.


Now that I've quoted all that can we stop this. Honestly Chief do u have an ability to cut 3 pages of this thread off and move it into its own thing.
but that is case closed end of story. The logic off making more profit for a company utterly destroys the pay gap. Men CEO's would cut most men and replace with women if this pay gap was true. Guarantee there's already been numerous studies by the top companies concerning this idea. bc profit drives the company
THE
END

also if you need a link
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12760790/

_________________
Inner game is the core, outer game is just an expression of it

Jurupa,

The idea that society will sometime be free of all problems is, I agree with you, sheer lunacy. History has shown what happens when humanity decides to adhere to this route. Believing that justice consists of balancing injustice is a distortion of the concept.

I don't dispute that article. Despite my concerns with the inequity in pay scales, I'm fully aware of the complexity of the issue. Women tend to earn less than men for a varierty of reasons, some of which should be corrected and some of which should not. I never argued that the discrepancy is caused solely be discrimination, nor would I ever. Some of the problems stem from the companies/industies involved and some stem from lingering stereotypes and perceptions in society. We've gotten a lot better, but we still have a long way to go. Returning to your article, if there truly is no bias whatsoever, why do males who become female suddenly earn so much less?

Apologies, I misunderstand what you meant. Once again, however, you haven't actually contradicted me. I argue in favour of equality. Injustices do not, and will never, balance each other out on a society-wide scale.

I don't have time to find the article on stereotypes in the workplace, but they're always a powerful force. They also affect how women negotiate for their pay, further lowering their earnings.

In terms of pay, it's an issue of what jobs and why women or men are disproportionately drawn to them. Both are influenced by stereotypes (women are nurturing, ect.) the question is simply which set of stereotypes is more limiting.

Ezo,

Actually, I found your comment more humorous and uninformed than anything else. I was attempting to point out the irony of it--ie. arguing that women are emotional when talking to a woman who happens to be applying logic. The fact that you went straight to my gender in examining my response indicates far more about your biases than mine.

The reality is that both men and women are frequently driven by emotional impulses as opposed to logic, the difference simply being in how their emotions are displayed. Men tend to be far more aggressive and domineering. All that concern about one's macho image and being the biggest man in the locker room?--all based on emotion.

Jelly,

I must confess some amusement at your list of jobs that men absolutely cannot get. Did you know that, a few years ago, there was a program in place encouragine men to become elementary school teachers in exchange for paying for a percentage of their schooling? Male waiters are also quite common in Italy, where being a waiter/host is considered to be a far more respectable postion than it is in the US.

I think it's particuarly interesting to examine the case of doctors in the USSR. In the old days, they were a highly respeted and well-paid profesion. Once the USSR mandated that women had to be admitted into the field, the status and pay of doctors plummeted overnight.

"Inarguable logic sicne the corporation is lead by a women no one is affecting her pay I would hire someone for 2/3 pay for same work anyday even if they were a chimpanzee and threw bananas at me. Economic theory would have women dominating the job market if they got paid less, This is simple logical math that any male CEO would follow more money in CEO's pocket. Just like how many landscape companies hire mexicans(illegals) no offense to mexican but they do it for less and no we have an illegal problem because of economic theory. "

That's entirely argueable logic becuase you're not looking at the entire issue, but a narrow subset. It isn't just a question of econmics, but of the stereotypes and climates that develop in various workplaces which mean that men are far more drawn to them than women. Things appear amazingly simple until you consider all of the relevant factors.

I will split this thread at where Ezo posted after I said to get back on topic. What should the title of the new thread be?

Ha yes and men dont complain about not getting those jobs. Other guys call that guy a pussy he shuts his mouth bc who cares theres other jobs. idk why the same logic does not happen to women. like other women go WTF that is a man's job.
Ha yes but italian culture is not western culture, they have an awesome culture but its much more laid back.

yes I forgot factors like these A communist nation that fell cannot be put into a comparison. This is western world. Otherwise the middle east will be brought up next and to us that world is f'd up idk what the women think there bc they are not allowed.
This is for the Western World only plus australia and new zealand

As a psychology major the only discrimination that really bugs me is attractiveness based discrimination, impossible to put a law against it, but that stuff is truly staggering a real issue, but no one is gonna say there ugly and get screwed over all the time. I mean wow the craziest studies I've seen are about discrimination based on attraction.

_________________
Inner game is the core, outer game is just an expression of it

Just to make sure that we are all on the same page....

Do women get paid less IN GENERAL or do they get paid less for the same job that a man does?

At my University there is 1 girl on my course. This bugs me. Women don't seem to want to study Engineering.

If I look at subjects like English Literature or Art History - there is a female dominance.

However graduates from those 2 subjects will generally have lower paid careers than engineering graduates.

That makes sense and would explain why women might get paid less in general. But I would expect (in my naive view of the world) that 2 workers doing the same job would get the same pay?

Please clarify!

Melissa,

I love your passion, but this is also your downfall. Your inability to stay neutral and decipher what people are saying is absolutely pitiful. You seem to be a smart girl but you are obviously letting your emotions in the way. This was precisely the problem I spoke of. This is why managers who are females have more often than not been super unimpressive.

When a female manager pulls a worker to the side she lets her emotions deal with the conversation BAD IDEA. I also have a male co-manger who does the same. Your emotions should be checked when you are reprimanding a person or dealing with a conflict.

For me it is not that women are incapable of these jobs, it is that the wrong women are stepping up for these jobs. You have an obsession with masculinity that makes me think you are almost jealous of it. You speak of men being domineering, I find that to be offensive, you are judging us. That is not right. Why is it ok for you to make a broad statement but not for me? In my real life experiences this is what I have dealt with. My favorite managers have all been female, but they have a much lower ratio of good to bad.

As far as your ridiculous statement about the NEW Feminist, you are outstanding with that jibberish, the Feminism and Militant have been together for longer than you have understood feminism. Domineering feminism is almost the foundation of feminism. Feminism is a bad thing overwhelming bias in a campaign for equality is hypocritical.

As stated women and men are different they deserve equal SPAM but some jobs are suited more for women and some suited more for men. Men may make more money here and there but women don't have to blow out there bodies doing construction either.

A womens life expectancy is longer, that is unfair. Why don't you comment on that? No you bring up money, I would rather have a few years than some extra doe, you can't have time again. You see all the problems with what males get more of, well women get more life the only thing we can truly cherish right now are you going to argue it is fair for us to die earlier to make a few extra bucks? I mean why the hell isn't a women hauling 4 22 foot 2x6s with me? Why on earth should some women who hauls one at a time make as much as me? Your perspective is flawed in so many ways it is astounding that you are considering yourself so logical rather than emotional.

Should someone who is a sales floor rep make more money than a person building your house or your kids school, because those are the guys you are talking about who make more money. Should a women who doesn't really work as hard in comparison make as much as the guy who has a blown out body by 35?

You should be comparing by industry, a women makes a lot more as a waitress than a man as a waiter most of the time. Why don't you bring that up? You are comparing over all paycheck, go by industry not by comparison. Think about this seriously does a women get paid as much as any male in the corporate world, YES. At least in my corporate world.

Go both directions, you are absolutely biased and this is my absolute problem with feminism. You are like the press pointing out things than leaving out the others. You disrespect men with a lot of your statements than get offended with the reality statements some of these men have stated. They don't even necessarily agree with it, they are just saying it how it is, as unfortunate as it may be.

Melissa, I think you are very impressive but you most definitely write with emotions.

_________________
Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

Its either utopia or what we have now. Seeing that our society faces no threat of collapsing due these injustices and society seems to actually progress because of these injustices, I can only say things are "balance" because of them. Its not balance in a logical way, if it was then the fixes for them would be just easy easy and we would have utopia. But there are no easy fixes to the injustices out there.
But you have basically made it tho. Even when I brought up all of the variables and what have you, you still make discrimination your sole point. Your question as to why a man turned women is discriminated against shows this.
I don't think they are as powefull as you think. More and more women are becoming managers and CEO's. Something that was not allowed socially 20 some years ago.
So you don't think there are jobs that are more suited for one sex over the other? And you want to over look the fact that women are less incline to go after high paying jobs and are less wining to make the sacifices men do to make that big pay check?

Both.
The same goes for Computer Science and any other real area of study.
This is assuming that the 2 works had the exact same backgrounds as well, which we all know is very unlikely to happen. More often than not the guy will have a better background than the woman would because guys are more likely to make the sacrifices needed to make the extra money and/or excel in their career.

Do women really get paid less even in the corporate world? In my experiences the job position has a salary and that HUMAN gets that pay. If a women makes less it is because she has a different job. Pay is by position, some positions males are unfortunately made better for and end up in more often.

_________________
Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

Well, first off, I wasnt talking about you. I was talking in general. From a PUAs point of view...
We normally say that women communicate emotionally and men logically. We say that to demonstrate a point, men need to learn to understand women, that is need to get better at communicating emotionally. Like in storytelling, a man will state the facts, the speed of the car and whatever while a woman is more interested in whats going on emotionally.

Anyways, sorry Chief, will try to stay on topic.

Melissa, seriously... You take this way to personal. Im sorry you feel that way but nobody is attacking you. We are only having an interesting discussion, I hope that you will continue to participate in it.

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I'm not trying to be a dick Ezo, but you're being a Pick Up Snob in my opinion.

bbardot: you just reminded me about porn

Ezo was probably talking about how women communicate emotionally with regards to seduction--Being that this IS a seduction forum. In order to game a woman you must change her mood not go about it communicating logically--
I'm just sayin!

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Pure in mind, pure in body, pure in game.

grandpapua.wordpress.com

The irony of all of this is she emotionally reacting to what you are saying. She hassling you about how logical she is over her emotions while she is emotional in every response.

_________________
Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com