Hi,

I think I can *try* to build enough confidence to hit on everything that moves with direct openers. However, most of the PUA methods seem very unnatural to me (probably why I am still a virgin but..). I kinda value my directness and straightfowardness (again probably why I am not popular but..). They are kind of who I am and what make me unique. They are also some of my strengths. While I may not as popular socially, I excel in leading.

I also have above average look, so I think I kind of deserve to go rambo on women below my league without PUA methods. However, the problem is that I lack the social proof (New to the unversity and lacking social skills), and I have no idea what to talk about. I like random talks, but women dont seem to find them fun. So those are some of the specific reasons why I am here.

The biggest difference between now and before is the level of urgency (because of my age). I am now prepared to get my ass kicked endlessly. I rejected many ugly girls in the past because my standard was real high, but now I am prepared to settle for average women.


Do I have to turn into a smooth PUA talker to get anywhere with women with average looks?

Can I just go with direct openers and be assertive?

Is there a way to just close everything in the first encounter/intro in university? (Ex. I can get the contact info everytime. Is it possible to set a semi-date/some event right away? Like asking for schedule and setup a meetup?)

How can I avoid sounding desperate/clingy? (this is one thing I might be doing and feel that my confidence is being shattered when rejected).

I think I am prepared to get shot down now. I am really really tired of feeling lonely. I don't expect to marry anybody from this SPAM. However, at the same time, I do not want to create a rumor that I am this pervert, clingy guy who got shot down by 200 average looking girls.

Go and find the video/audio called "Be Relentless" from a guy called "David X" - I think he's got exactly what you're looking for.

I am 23, virgin, never kissed a girl on the lips, have terrible social anxiety and poor social skills, and almost bald too.

I rejected three girls who wanted to f-close me because I was too anxious and afraid of stds, and thought I could ask them on a 3rd date and then kiss them and have sex. Once I rejected a girl once or twice (1st one sat me on her couch, when all her 5 room mates were gone, put on a romantic film, at her place and I did not even put my hand around her, 2nd one I talked to her a lot and then she got drunk and was putting her boobs against my chest and touching my shoulders and stomach with her hands and was dragging me home and tried kissing me, we then had a date, and she tried to kiss me again and i said i just wanted to hug her (because i never kissed a girl and i was afraid i'd embarass myself), 3rd and 4th girls I got the look expectant look like "come one make a move" we went to see a movie, held hands hugged, but again i was afraid to kiss them and did not make a move when they invited me to their place. I'm just a pussy when it comes to kissing because I've never done it and afraid to f-close because I am never sure if it is ok and if it will offed a girl or if she has stds. Ok, I have a mental problem I know lol don't make fun of me.

Now, I signed up for OKCUPID and messaged and IM'ed a bunch of girls. Got some dates! That's how I learned to go on a date, flirt, developed a tiny bit of game, and started practicing kissing a girl on the cheeck and giving her hugs. There was an asian girl with social anxiety who seemed to really like me and I asked her out on a second date thinking she would be the one I would finally work up the nerve to kiss on the lips and try to f-close if she wants it, but she sent me a rejection email saying she is not interested in dating and does not like to be alone with people her age aka me when nobody else is around.

So this is your to do list:

1. Get a hair cut, shave, brush your teeth, use mouthwash, and dress clean, well fitting clothes, that make you look manly and that are good enough to go out to a restaurant.

2. Go to MEETUP and join the Ultimate Frisbee games, start your own jogging group on MEETUP and advertise for members on craigslist, smile and say how are you? to several random girls every day. For example, I tried it this morning: smiled to a girl at an intersection waiting for the Walk signal behind me and said:

Me: Going to work? (I smile, I am in front of her, slightly turned, not facing directly, there is 3-4 steps physical distance between us and I do not move to her)
She: Yes. (pause) I have an interview today. (Smiles, looks and sounds shy.)
Me: Interview? (Smile) Good luck! (I turn around and go)

I don't think like I looked a creep and she seemed please that her interview outfit got her some respectful male attention.

3. Join OKCUPID or another dating site, and message and IM 100 girls regardless of how they look. Go on a date with any of them, but don't pay for their dinner and stuff. Make them earn it. Girls on these sites are great practice and very horny.

4. Try to get yourself invited to a party and socialize with everyone there. This is very attractive to girls when they see you talk lively to strangers, smile, and be confident and friendly. At parties, it's a sexy SPAM and many girls are looking to hook up.

5. Read Feeling Good and When Panic Strikes by Dr. Burns and Disability and the Art of Kissing by Gary Karp.

Honestly I hate openers from others, I pride myself on originality. I don't care much for routines, in fact I am against them in my particular case I should have naturally been a ladies man, my inner game held me back.

That said you need to read some of these pick up books and follow the routines a few times, not because you should be like others but because it will give you a good social interaction to gain confidence from. It will also help you understand the social interaction, what to look for, what works for you.

You can NEG without negging, you don't have to insult a girl just state it forwardly like you do. Don't act better than me. Don't judge me. Man you got me judging you already.

DV, I don't demonstrate value at all, they don't need anything but my attitude. There are some moment where you need to show value but I do most of this through my diction. Word selection can make you perceived as a totally different person it demonstrates great value.

bla bla bla the rest of the pick up stuff.

You should always be assertive(my largest flaw), but being clingy means you want them. Make them realize that you don't care for them. They are just a stranger you are having a conversation with, you shouldn't perceive it as anything thing else. That is one thing I love about the freeze out, on the pick up side they have some great concepts that you can modify.

I personally think you should become a knowledge machine if you want to be a natural pick up artist. Not only does knowing a lot help in conversation but you need to study sells. Body language should be at the top of your to learn list. I would recommend three. The definitive book on body language by Pease, What every body is saying by Joe Navarro, and Undercover Sex Signals by Leil Lowndes(she talks a lot but she knows what she is talking about). Love Signals by David Givens is also a great Courtship book that helps you explain the entire process of pick up with out the language, one of the easiest ones to start with. It is the one I make all my friends read at first. Goes over body language. Body language lets you know when it is time to bounce, you should always know when to leave.

Next I would go to other books that help you understand things about your character and others. I like Kevin Hogan books a bit, Irresistible Attraction and Covert Persuasion by Kevin Hogan are great books. Influence: The psychology of persuasion by Robert Cialdini. How to talk to anyone by Leil Lowndes is solid as well for socializing. These books help you become a naturally powerful personality. Pick up uses all of these concepts. I don't go out and field test any routines, I have learned lots of tricks to help me, little statements, etc. But those are original to me and no one else(I am remembered by my Laugh and language). One good tip, if you want to be introduced to a fag hag(girls that follow gay men around everywhere), ask the guy for an introduction to their friend, they are always cool with you if you are respectful plus it lets you neutralize them initially. Most gay men are all for chivalry, and respect. If you show both they will help the girl validate you.

Getting funnier is a huge part of natural game. You should be able to have the head pulled back and a full laugh come out rather than a awkward one. You don't want a does that guy really think he's funny look on her face.

LOOKS DON'T MATTER IN PICK UP! Presentation does though. I have always been the least attractive one of my friends(not that I am unattractive, still a good looking guy, just not a pretty boy) and had a lot of girls crush on me. In fact every girl I crush on likes me for the most part, problem is I always give them the power.

When you read body language books you can learn a lot about a people and you can analyze them straight to their face, give you something to talk about, you know what they are feeling. When you read sells books and psychology books you can tell them why they think something or why our emotions go one way. Reading evolution books are cool as well because you can tell them who they are at their rawest. They are still an animal. There are a ton of ways to do things.

I recommend reading a few pick up books and learning a routine or two if you are socially awkward. While you are using some of those things you should constantly be studying body language, psychology books(NLP included), and some general human study concepts. You need to be interesting by knowing things about them with out really knowing anything. Knowing a little about a lot is always good but that comes with time, I can talk about a lot of topics than listen(that is what girls want the most and love the most in a man).

If you are not funny you better go get some books on being funny as well as watch and steal some stand ups and steal movie quotes. If they know the movie you have automatic rapport if they don't you now have a reason to hang out to show her this awesome funny part or whatever.

You need to be different some how. Diction (word selection) is one of the easiest ways to do that. Say things differently than others, use more intuitive words. Certain words help ears perk up more than others.

Natural game is the hardest to gain because it is based on inner game. What you think of your self and your confidence level. Adapting the attitude that they are the lucky ones to talk to you rather than you are lucky to be talking to them is also great.

Reading one of our posts will do nothing for you. You can get some great tips but you need to get out and read at least 10 books before you should really ask us any questions. I could write a book on natural game but it wouldn't matter. I am no pick up artist but I understand what it is instilled in.

My basic start is catching attention hi my name is or whatever else. A compliment(be very careful, must be pretty smooth for this, do not ever compliment looks in a opening, you talking to them does that, compliment clothes, accessories, hair)
Say something funny(even if it is about yourself, must be done properly).
Say something witty.

After that it is all about you and your conversation ability. You have got their attention now you need to be interesting. Some times you have to listen very carefully to the conversation so you know what they like.

Read those books man, then you will have lots of interesting stuff to talk about. Present yourself properly, I would rather dress nice than peacock, dressing nice usually makes you stand out as it is. You should always have on something that helps you stand out, I wear a necklace. Sometimes suspenders, but I never look outlandish either. I also suggest finding some layed back friends that can help you out. Having d-bag friends never helps your situation.

Ok. You have the wrong perspective on the methods.

You believe if they are "unnatural" or "difficult", you shouldn't do them, because they obviously aren't right for you.

Got news for ya. If you haven't been laid, the methods aren't going to feel "natural". If you want to get a different result, do something different. Your natural programming isn't getting you laid. Get different programming.

OF COURSE PUA methods are difficult. Anything worth doing is difficult. If you aren't ready to work hard, then you have no business being here.

Now for the disclaimers. Find the method that's closest to your personality. None of us can change our entire belief system. That's why, if you're funny, and cocky, you may as well play C&F as your system, since that's congruent. If that's not getting you laid, tweak your method. It should eventually feel right.

When I say "difficult", I mean difficult to start out with. Real pickup, when you get there, is easy. Starting out isn't.

_________________
Don't hate, just dominate.

a lot of stuff to touch on there.

if youre a direct dude, go for it. this game isnt about changing who you are, its simply giving you the tools to work with.
being direct if done in funny way with a smile on your face can work. if youre all macabre and shit, or have no positive energy, being direct can kill you.

i wouldnt lower youre standards. it will make results more difficult, but you"ll be much more satisfied with yourself. besides going out with an attractive girl is great social proof for you, and a confidence booster

hey man if youre going all direct, there is no reason to not get instant date. you can go on mini dates the instant you meet a girl. i dont have any links, but there is much info to look through on these forums

to not be clingy, you have to take a step back and take alook at what youre doing. if youre reading negative signals, take a recap of what youve been doing lately and check yo'self. another way is simply have other social options. dont be too reliant on one source for social things ie. join a club, make more friends

good luck my man

Good points. However, I must elaborate.

I kind of expected a reply like AFC Royal's. So extra thanks to others who didn't go noob bashing on me (not that Royal did).

Poetic's post matches mostly my situation imo. So 1+ rep to Poetic.

While I expected such as reply as Royal's attitude points (which is said to a lot of noobs like me, I assume), I must agree and disagree for myself. I agree fully on points that I do need to learn the basics of the game and change my atitude toward it. However, my question was "Is that really the only way?" Can I get anywhere by being direct but somewhat boring?

Is there any woman in this world who just enjoy the company of a good looking man? Does the person have to sit and do trivia sessions with the women? I personally do not think women deserve that much. I must put on a show? A fake smooth talker to get anywhere?

My basic and boring plan:
A. Introduction
B. Ask for status
C. Setup a meeting

Virtually no PUA methods (while there may be overlapping concepts on execution). Bound to get shot down somewhat a lot but it must work with some women, right?

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand that i definitly need to fix my game. I really love the SPAM on this forum. Everybody is so helpful.

I am just not that patient. It feels that I should maybe really hit the clubs for drunk chicks or something. It's too bad that I am always surrounded by the sincere people who just happen to be "not good looking people"(Not into clubs).

Teach me cool but non-clingy/desperate sounding direct solution (something that is so direct and yet cool). A way which will not spread the rumor that I hit on 200 women & I don't come as desperate/clingy.

I don't mind getting shot down. One thing I do mind ending up looking desperate and rumored to be the loser of all. I don't mind if they think i am a playboy or something. That's okay. At least I won't be called the loser of all.

There must be somebody who takes me seriously right?

Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate all the help, and I love the forum. I love you guys. I really do. I can feel the love.

It feels that the best option for me is to just go to a club and go with "Hey, we would like to pick some chicks" and see where it takes us.

Oh and thanks icewalker.. I will give you a rep when i get another one! ! You might have been just as helpful or more.

The one person you definately have to have a look at on youtube is AFC Adam Lyons. He helps you understand the process of opening directly and not showing interest in her so you don't become another one of those guys while allowing her to invest in you and what you say. He gives great advice when it comes to social proof and how to have MLTR (multiple long term relationships).

As for a girl wanting to just enjoy the company of a good looking guy, she would much rather enjoy the company of someone who she can have a good time with and can keep an interesting conversation. You don't have to put on a show but you have to make her want to spend more time with you or it will come back to bite you in the ass.

If you don't want PUA methods check out AFC Adam because he goes into the psychology of everything.

Well, PUA is just like sells except instead of selling a product you are selling yourself(when you sell a product most of the time your selling yourself as well, after all people do business with people they know and like). All the principles are based on sales.

A freeze out is using a scarcity tactic man kind loves what they can't have. Just like a baby loves the toy the other baby has, playing hard to get, using negative space or whatever else works.

Creating a reason to hang out later movie, air hockey, pool, bar, dancing, or whatever else is commitment and consistency they already agreed to something now they are just staying on coarse.

Reciprocation is just giving them something, perhaps you gave them a piece of jewelry and asked them not to be a thief they need to return it. They owe you something back. I don't believe in buying drinks needs to be said.

Social Proof is also another tactic PUAs use a lot. Oh man you haven't done this or seen this everyone has, I will have to show you. All of the rest of the class is going. Everyone else likes you or whatever else.

People Like to talk to people they Like, that is basic, no need to get into details.

Authority is just adding value to yourself. You are an expert in a field. People listen to you because you know what your talking about

The reason i went over sells is because that is the problem a vacuum sells man has. Do you think a sells man can walk up and say hey do you want to buy a 1000 dollar vacuum? Nope, you need to talk, give them value. They should want to talk to you again. Being direct isn't always good, that is why all these tactics were invented. There are plenty of stories of guys who got looks up and down, he walks over says man your beautiful would you like to go to dinner? Then she shakes her head no or looks at him in disgust. Why did she do that? It was obvious she found him attractive. She wouldn't have made eye contact multiple times or sent him signals. The point is you can't be that direct. People need some smoke up even if they don't act like they want the games they do, this stands true especially for women in courtship.

You have to go a certain route to gain a phone number or a date. You use a lot on the psychology of selling, meaning you add value yourself(product) before you offer to hang out or ask for a phone number(price). Building a genuine attraction is the key to pick up, you can't build a genuine attraction without putting time in, being direct doesn't always allow for that.

I am a big fan of using body language if you want to be able to find a girl who likes you for you, you need to study body language. Or perhaps you want to know which girls you have the best shot at when you walk in. The first step to natural game is body language. I still say go get some books, body language is your biggest need.
Love Signals, What Every Body is Saying, The Definitive Book on Body Language, and Undercover Sex Signals(U.S.S.). These books will help you so much, not just in pick up but in general. You need to know when a girl is going to like you.

All of us guys think we choose the girl, that is not true at all, the girl chooses us. We have to be assertive, and follow through but we go give it a shot try out for the team and they choose whether we make the cut. The point is to know when you make the team and when you don't. There is no way a guy can say every time if I would have done this or that. Some girls are rough to get through, some girls are an easy pick up.

The difference between AFCs like me and a great pick up artist is that they know when to walk away, they know when to elevate and they know when to bait. A perfect sells men does the same. Knowing all of that is based off of body language.

If you want to go through the basic courtship there are steps. Pretty simple:

1. Approach/Catch attention(Establish contact, why peacocking works)
2. Recognition(knowing when your liked or who you like)
3. Speech(conversation is always the start to building a genuine attraction rather than physical)
4. Touching(kino)
5. Sex

In PUA that is all you do, the point is knowing how to build an attraction. The rest is following the steps, knowing when to push and when to pull.

The conversation can't be boring or you are just the same as every other guy that walks up, somebody with a physical attraction that has nothing to offer. If you want drunk girls it can be easy to bed them as they are animalistic and at their rawest it is why I have had my door knocked on at 2 AM by a horny neighbor in fish nets drunk on Tequila(fantastic experience, a dear Penthouse story).

If you want to not be a guy that gets shot down by 200 girls than just have a basic conversation with them.

Start it out basic:
Hi how are you?/What's your name?/Those are some interesting bracelets. Or whatever you are just trying to open a conversation up.
Say something funny about an observation or whatever.
Say something witty to make you seem more intelligent or crafty.

Then just start a normal conversation, you do need to be able to joke through out the conversation so they are having fun. Know their body language, if they start to like you you will receive IOIs, as you receive them move closer, as you do carefully watch their body language. If they wince or their torso moves back you need to give them their space. If they don't than let them come closer to you, sometimes you have to be more assertive in cases where the individual is shy. One guy refers to it as negative space. Also be aware rural girls will appreciate more space.

Than as you receive more IOIs you need to elevate a little more go on to touch or Kino as it is affectionately called on here. Sometimes it is easy to say hey lets go talk, so you put their arm around yours making sure they grab your arm not just loosely hang on to it. A nice hand on the back or shoulder is sometimes a good start, Kino should be escalated as well with more IOIs. Leaning into you, means your hand should be on her waste or small of her back, basically in a more sexual area. Pay attention to body language know when to back up.

Sometimes you will need to see them a second time for what is next. Collect information for a later meeting. Other times your solid right here.

Eye contact is key to the kiss, my biggest flaw is right here when I say more I need to be more assertive I mean I will make enough eye contact the moment will be right than I will flop it. When you make a certain amount of eye contact with silence the pupils will be dilated, bedroom eyes will appear, sometimes you just know do to a lot of eye contact. After all you already established connection.

After the kiss you got to elevate your self a bit more. Body language is important, know where you can touch and where you can't initially. A tug on their hair while controlling a kiss. I am a big fan of certain areas, neck, hips(one of my favorites is grabbing their underwear on both sides and using them as reigns to control her hips, girls love it), lower back, sides, knees when sitting, when they are warmed up every place is able to be touched but their is a order to things most of the time. I usually will move my hands everywhere giving them a taste of everything, crotch is careful.

After that it is all on you. You set it up and close the deal, there is always going to be some last minute resistance so be careful and play it right. Sells tactics will help once more.

If you follow that outline you will not get denied. Don't start hitting on them at all, poke fun flirt a little but don't necessarily hit on them. If you do that you will just look like some guy looking for someone to enjoy a conversation with. If they show IOIs than start some flirting.

The fact that you started a conversation at all is all they need to know about your interest. You just need to know when to elevate, that is all you need. That is all anyone needs. Routines just work because it makes the person interesting, the experience fun, that is why they receive results, they have worked in the past. Kind of like how you use a general sales routine.

Nice post, Poetic!

Thank you.

Yea, the more I read about it, the more I realize how I am on the extreme opposite end of it. I am a person who love fast results and build everything on personal specialty/skill and directness & honesty based on the level of expertise. So I find myself quite effective at giving speeches or leading. But I was never popular socially.

I always believed that while I love socializing, socializing is a waste of time as most people don't really say that they really want to say because people almost always tend to say what the other person wants to hear. So I actually even refrained from having conversations at one point because I would be too honest with people when I was getting bullshit lies from them.

It feels as if I need to study 2~4 years in order to fully grasp it. My patience is really going to be challenged. However, I will definitly try because the great thing from this is that as you and some others point out, the basic social skills seem to be the fundemental part of it which work on any setting and relationship.

I will start on some of the books starting this weekend.

Thank you, Swee!

I did look at some of his videos. While they are good, he seems to be rather too general on the subject. He doesn't discuss much direct game on youtube (or details on how to execute). I have seen another guy who shares more direct technicalities than he does. He seems to talking a lot about social proof which is practically what everybody is talking about.

Adam seems to be much better than David X though (even though the two differ on their specialties). David X is really just focused on explaining how women trualy are. (which can be vital for 15 mins but not so much after that).

if you want more detail into what he's saying check out his website.

attractionexplained.com

A good way of approaching directly and not conveying interest in her would be to notice something about her personality from afar and bring it to her attention.

i.e. Excuse me you look like a fun person and I knew I'd be kicking myself later if I didn't come and say hi, so hi I'm _______.

By stating that you would be kicking yourself later conveys spontinaity, a friendly yet funny vibe, and willingness to not let an opportunity to pass by. She'll probably gigle from this and you're in.

Transition from there to something you observed and tell ask her the story behind it. The point is to find out something about her that you can make a connection with in order for her to remember you and lessen the chance of getting a flaky number. (bracelet, where she's off to on such a whatever day it is, if she has an accent where she's from, etc.)

Just have a conversation from there. Before you leave give her a justification to why you should keep in touch be it going to see a movie she's never seen but you think its the utter shiza or the other way around, going out to a club that you or her have never been to, etc.

Once you get the basics on how to show interest in her w/o showing interest in her looks she'll be more open to talk to you because in her frame of mind you want to get to know her for her not because you like how she looks.[/youtube]

It shouldn't take you more than a few months to learn the body language aspect. You should study body language everywhere. It will give you great practice just watching people. Go to the bar, club, class, park, grocery store, etc. and just watch people. I have seen courtship body language at my work(grocery store), in a library, park, coffee shop, everywhere. You need to learn the generals about body language and as you go you will learn more about other things.

The point is to know when you are allowed to do things and be assertive when you are given that opportunity. That is what natural game is all about.

wow i know this is an old thread but got damm!!!!!

you and i have the same exact mentality. i really dont wanna go through all this bullshit it just doesnt feel like im being myself courting women and such.

i really hate qualifying my self... i dread it

but i have learned that i will never get pussy if i dont go through this. its just i feel so fake doing so i really dont know what to do