Oh shit. Can it be? Is it really, a female?

God forbid.

Hi my name is agent_visceral and I'm a girl. I'm hear because I find the PUA culture really interesting. I first read about it in an evolutionary psych book called The Science of Sex, and then started watching the pick-up artist. I have yet to read the game but I've perused through some of Mystery's stuff.

So recently I've joined some social networking sites. I'm not going to say which ones to protect the people's I talk about identities. And so I thought, that you might be interested in hearing the "other side'" of the field report.

Obviously the majority of these guys were probably AFC's, but I think that there were a couple of PUA's or at least PUA wanna-be's that sent me messages.

So here are some things that I think will automatically put a guy on a girl's creeper list:

1. The Unbreakable Age Barrier

More than ten years older, unless the girl is over the age of twenty five. I know that I automatically don't answer, or state right away that I'm only interested in being friends with any guy whose over the age of twenty six. (I am 19.) That's creepy. I have professors your age. I know that it may be tempting to message a girl that's really hot and just happens to be the same age as your kid sister. In the RW she may be more open to you, but I can't even count how many times I've been told to watch out for OLDER MEN particularly on the internet. Even though technically I, and girls my age are legal in many ways I still have the mind frame that men over the age of 26 lusting after me is disgusting online. It's the to catch a predator stereotype.

2. You're Not Fooling Anyone

By messaging me you automatically lower your value. Now in the real world coming up and talking to me or any girl can seem like you're just sociable or fun. Or in the case of day game, circumstantial -- you're both standing in line together why not talk? But if I'm on a dating site and you message me even with something innocuous like "I see you like David Mamet as well? or even Me and my girlfriend are looking to meet new people (creepy, three some offer much), I know the reason that you are messaging me is because you find me attractive.

4. Every Girl Has A Thing

Now this isn't true for a lot of girls, but my thing is intelligence and class. Thus for me the best way to DHV is to say something that I didn't know before that's really smart ( I go for nerdy) or mention something classy/expensive. I'm not talking you're hot new sports car you bought, but maybe a recent book signing you went to. ((Obviously in this way I'm the exception most girls my age don't give a shit about this kind of stuff.))
I won't date, or even hang out with I guy that seems to either be classless or intelligent. (On that note not typing in complete sentences or using chatspeak is an automatic X in my book.)

And that's the point every girl has a thing that they cannnot do without. For some it's humor, for some it's money, for some it's musical taste. The key is to find out what that thing it and emulate it and work it into whatever your usual routine is.

Generic negging doesn't work. Or let me rephrase. Generic negging is simply not as effective.

I've looked at the online threads where there are generic openers like:

You seem hot, but what about you're personality etc.

I can't argue with the sucess which these kind of openers seem to have, but let me tell you that formatted prescripted stuff get's old fast.

For example one guy messaged me with kind of a classic neg. I was immediately on alert as this guy is probably some kind of PUA.

((Note this isn't exactly what he said but I'm trying to protect his identity as well as my own in case he frequents this site.))

You have really pretty eyes, but do you know their different sizes. ((This was about the third comment that day about how pretty my eyes were. Also.))

My first thought here is. Okay way to pay a backhanding compliment, second thought, hmmm this strategy seems familiar I think I read about it somewhere. Third thought well at the very least it's a nice change of pace from ur so hot, or long paragraphs telling me their life story. I check out his profile. Wow he is five years older than me. He's edging in the creeper zone, but what can be the harm in replying.

I reply back and he asks me if he thinks he looks like some celebrity because he gets that a lot, and that he and his friends are having an argument about it. Him and his friends are having an argument about something and he needs my opinion.

Hmm that also sounds familiar to the opening line of ever pick up ever.

I decide to play along and shoot back a question. At which point he says I ask the question, plainly trying to keep control of the conversation and then follows it up with asking me another scripted question and telling me I'm a naughty girl.

Let me tell you that I can tell that you're reading from a play book and not from my responses. I can tell that you aren't comfertable talking about yourself and more importantly I can tell right away that you're not interested in getting to know me. At best you want to get to know my body, at worst you're just practicing on me until you can find the next bimbo with bigger breasts and a better spray on tan.


5. How To Not Build Comfort

The I'll freak her out by saying that I'm not going to freak her out trick. I can't count how many guys message me saying:

No pressure to meet in person.

or

I know these dating sites have a lot of weirdos

Now this doesn't seem like a mistake a seasoned PUA would make, but let me just say right now that telling me that you're not a creep just makes you sound like even more of a creep. It doesn't even have to be at the beginning of the conversation.

Let's say that you've asked me to meet up in person and I say no. Or for example you say jokingly before you ask for my number, I need it so I can text you nine times a day. It's a joke I get it haha, but it just reminds me of the danger of online.

If you were about to have sex with a girl would you say, Hey, I need you to open your vagina so I can come inside you before you have an orgasm.

Obviously it's much less severe, but even jokingly, reminding someone of the reason why they're wary of trusting you in the first place isn't a good idea.

It reminds me of these sleep tape I tried to use to fall asleep once, and it kept on saying:

I don't want you to think of all the worries you have. Don't think just sleep.

And by saying don't think it just reminded me of all the worried I do have.

It's like you have something to hide. If you weren't a creep you would know that you're profile or your message itself would show that you aren't a creep.

4. Have patience/Don't message me.

Now this isn't a stratagy that will work for most girls. But the number one guys that I've been most interested in are the guys that I have messaged. And they've done this by creating an interesting profile/being cute/british. You're profile is your tool to lure girls in. Many girls may not surf around, but some sites have tools where you can see who has been viewing your profile.

My advice would be to look at a girl's profile as a first step, that way if she's checking whose looking at her she can be redirected to your profile. This is why you're profile pic is king.

If you do message me --- assuming I don't respond. Wait a while before responding. I'd say anywhere from a day to two. I know it seems cliche, but if you write something mysterious and I respond the waiting is one of the fun parts. If I get instant gratification I get bored.

Many other girls aren't as aggressive as I am. When I see a guy I like I go after him, and I've never dated or done any thing with a guy that approached ME. (Which is probably why I can relate to PUA's because I am often the one doing the picking up.) -- This isn't some descision I've made, I've just found that I'm most attracted to guys that I have to chase after not vice versa. I've been told I give off a very masculine energy in this way, and get hit on just as often by girls as guys. --

Anyway, those are just some things I've picked up from the other side of the fence. And I hope I could be honest with you. I hope moreover that you can appreciate and not discount my opinion just because I'm girl.

We are afterall the one's you are trying to seduce.

signing off,
Visceral_Agent. [/b]

I wanted to test the online negging, but I did it in a different way. I used a different balance of genuine interest vs. "negging" or just sarcasm, and I never left compliments. I also only sent messages to people who would reply "very selectively" (okcupid.com).

Now from that, I realized that negs do work, but the more honest and direct one is in their message, the better. For example, on one extreme of the spectrum, I had a girl who I used a ton of sarcasm on. She was extremely agitated in her reply, rightfully so, but she was just a test and she came back the way I expected her to.

The next couple of women all had positive replies, and the messages I sent to them had a decent balance of sarcasm vs. genuine interest. From these girls I took a few numbers, but sadly they were also just tests.

The one girl who I was absolutely candid with, she didn't respond. This is absolutely all situational though, because another woman with whom I was genuinely interested I ended up dating for a bit. Ended up with buyer's remorse The approach I used was not like that of a pick up artist at all, though I never commented on her looks or anything more than her personality.

Now in terms of messaging them versus waiting for a message, that most likely won't happen. If you're interesting enough, they'll respond anyway and it's easy to reacquire value from there. Typically a message that starts with something that may surprise them, and then finish genuinely or directly will garner a response. Most girls will put their "thing" in their profile, so playing to it just like you mentioned or sometimes even the complete opposite will get them to reply.

_________________
-Fortune favors the bold-

You're right that most girls won't message. So I think that sending messages is kind of unavoidable. That said I think there is something to be said in waiting to send a message, it will also give you time to do your research and make sure that you have the right approach. And if she's really interested in you maybe she'll message you first without having to lower you're value.

excellent stuff agent_visceral!


Always good to see the other side. Your post is littered with valuable information;

I now always try to figure out a girl from her profile and gear my routine towards that. I find that even if I use a canned line or three, I try to adopt it to the situation and girl, especially in the heading of the opener. Guys that just copy and past old routines will always struggle to create any form of comfort as the lines are not being shaped to fit.

Im not too sure if I agree with the "wait and they will come" scenario, you are both on the dating site for one reason so there is always some point of interest being shown. I think your perception is a little different from most because of your interest in PUA. Cold messaging is a sign of intent, but its easy to regain the control of the situation through being cocky and funny and throwing the odd neg or two in for good measure - the depth and type are dependent on the situation,
as always. That said, I do get good success on POF where I have looked at a girls profile but sent no message, if they are interested they often still message me.

One of the things I know I am guilty of, and from this moment will change, is messaging back too quickly. I have POF on for most of the day when in my home office and often check for messages every hour or so. Im probably coming across as being needy...



You made me laugh mentioning the "You seem hot, but what about you're personality" - I had tested something similar this week in the UK and got shot down by each one...... lol.


Anyhow, thanks for the post!!! I look forward to more!

I guess this all boils down to what the goal is. I don’t pick up girls because I’m interested in getting to know them. That’s what my guy friends are for. If I want to hang out, drink some beers, and have good conversation, I call the boys. If I’m looking for sex, I choose 5 hot insecure girls, and I DHV them straight back to my bedroom. 1 in about 5 is usually what it takes. You also said that you have never done anything with any guy that has approached you—you do the approaching when there is a guy you are interested in. You are of strong character, which is good, and my level of respect is different for you. If I met you and was actually attracted to you (which I doubt), I would have to modify my approach. I would most likely default to an approach void of PUA routines—probably something that I would use on one of the 25-35 yr old professional women where I work. I.E. Avoid showing signs of blatant attraction, find common interest, subtle DHV spikes of intelligence, good tastes in art, and outstanding moral character. Plus elusive/mysterious behavior swings when it comes to any conversation regarding my personal life. It is generally effective, although, we will never know

I guess then it's more moral for you to use canned routines, because if you feigned interest they would get the wrong idea. That's fine and I'm sure there are a lot of guys here like you. But I also bet there are some guys that either

A. Are looking for girls long term, if if polygamously or at the very least serial monogamy.

B. Are attracted to the girls who are confident and not insecure. I'm sure there are some super hot of hot girls that you won't get unless you put in a little more effort than the standard routine.

As for what would work on me, I'm not hear to give you information on how to pick up me up. While probably entertaining, it's replay value is limited.

Very true. I am not looking for girls long term, and I am not looking for confident and smart. Both of those endeavors take far too much energy. By being able to articulate yourself and speak in complete sentences, you are already disqualified. Maybe one day my game will change from hot and good in bed to good breeding genes. Then we shall talk

On the other hand, thank you for your advice. It is appreciated.

I think you mean Hot, good in bed and dumb. There are many smart women who are good in bed. My best friend's really smart and she's from what I've been told by her boyfriend extremely skilled. He himself was a former player. I know that is only anecdotal, but it seems to me like the main hurdle that you have with smart women is difficulty level, and time invested, not the returns. Which is fine. Minimum effort with maximum return is the best business model. Minimum effort only becomes an issue when you're not getting maximum returns, and you seem to think you are. So I see no issue.

I was reluctant to use the word dumb.

There is a certain age, it is different for all women, when they just don't fall for the same crap anymore. Some learn early, some later in life, and fortunately, some never learn. I'm not sure if it has to do with intelligence, life experience, wisdom, or any other ideas?

When I would walk away from one of these interactions, initially, I would think things such as, "well she definitely wasn't into me," or "it was like she could see right through me." The point is, the approach that I developed for these targets is much more energy consuming and has a lower rate of success. I usually run a few of these on the side, but it is always more of an experiment (and occasionally, a pleasant success). I consider it practice for when I finally decide to meet a good breeder.

so as you stated, "minimum effort with maximum return is the best business model."

although, I think I'll go with "unwise" rather than "dumb."

If not dumb than insecure.

A good breeder?

Do you not value perhaps the companionship a women who actually has the confidence to be your equal and not fall for the routine, but instead fall for you? I'm not a romantic, I don't believe in flowers or candy, or even possibly monogamy. One of my favorite stories is on NPR this American life about a couple where the wife fell in love with the other man and her husband encouraged it, and it actually ended up enliving their sex life, although they did eventually break up. I do however beleive that any long term relationship has to be based on some kind of love, which for me can only come out of mutual respect for the person and the traits they have not their genes.


I have no problem with you wanting to lay as many woman as possible, but what I do have a problem with is the implication that a LTR is only valuable for the fact that she can produce you're offspring. If that's the goal then why not simply becomes close friends with a super-intelligent super-amazing super-hot female and then offer her a bunch of money to have your child. Gay couples do it all the time.


And more importantly if as you say women learn over time, and gain confidence over time then it sounds like confidence is not genitic. So if you hope to gain confidence well adjusted children banging a confident women won't help, other than the fact that she may be an above average care provider, but even then that is unlikely. the more confident the higher she will probably be in her career ladder, meaning the less time she will have to invest in any children. That's not to say she won't be a good mother, but I'm guessing (and this is conjecture) that she will expect a lot more out of you, namely that you take care of the children equally.

Very good points and questions…

Here is an example. A girl at my work; she is a perfect 10. There isn’t a routine out there that she will fall for, or possibly it is just me that she won’t fall for (this is a moot point). We hang out, we laugh, we talk about our sexual exploits. She is well-armed, witty, intelligent, and makes more money than most people I know. Which makes an already 10, an 11. She says to me the other night, “isn’t it sad that we’re both just looking for someone with good genes?” Then she smiles and looks down.

So is it sad? One day I’ll have to be gaming for the single purpose of finding a good breeder? I don’t think so. I believe it is totally selfless, in that my motivations are to have the happiest and healthiest children possible. What better gift can I bestow on an unborn child than to spend ample time selecting the most fit mother possible?

To me a good breeder has the following characteristics:
Not chronically depressed
No congenital heart issues (such as murmurs, MVP, etc)
Above average intelligence
Critical thinking skills
Healthy parents and grand parents with no signs of Alzheimer’s or dementia
Good skin
Socially acclimated
A nice smile
A naturally proportioned body without implants, plastic surgery, spray-on tan, etc
A good sense of humor
Etc

When the time comes, falling in love will be the easy part.

When the time comes...

I'm not a romantic in some ways, but I suppose in the way that counts I still am. I believe that love defies our expectations, mostly because that's how it's ended up in my life. I can't count how many "perfect" guys It hasn't worked out with, or that I even rejected out of hand. And even more importantly there have been many guys that I've liked and dated that were not perfect genes, balding (yes even at the tender age of 22), short, one I even met while he was in the hospital. That's not to say that all the guys I dated were ugly or I have some kind of upsidedown attraction to ugly guys. But I can say with confidence that attraction is more important to me than facial features, or good genes. As for the perfect ones they were smart witty, indescribably handsome, and I'm sure had good genes but there just wasn't chemistry so it didn't happen. And if I did end up going out with them there wasn't enough common interests to sustain the relationship.

@Steve, I have said something similar in a message before that wasn't as abrasive. I remember saying something like "You may be hot, but I can't really tell from these pictures, and you may be sweet, funny and whatever the other adjective was, but your profile doesn't really reflect it."

Anyway, I went on to ask her something that'd bring out her personality, and she responded very well.

Visceral, you described my situation in a nut shell. I travel quite a bit, but in reality I'm looking for a girl for something long term. I play the game because I enjoy it, and I really enjoy the social dynamics, but I'd like to take the skills from it and really meet someone nice.

Out of all of the girls I've dated, the only one I miss was confident and we had a nice mutual respect for each other. If I could find something like that again, I'd be more than happy. I too like to find a challenge, and this was a pleasant surprise from the girls I had usually dated.

_________________
-Fortune favors the bold-

@ agent_visceral

First off, I'm glad to see input from a woman on here. It's just good for all of us to see the other side of the coin. I agree with most of what you say actually. I think the canned stuff is very much a waste of time. It comes out unnatural and scripted. Also, it comes off as if it isn't your own voice and I don't see the reason people rely on that. Basically a guy just has to not be scared to talk and allow their interesting sides show through. There is something interesting about most of us. That's almost always more than enough to keep a girl talking. You mention patience in restraining oneself from messaging. I agree with you but I find it to be a necessary evil. I do believe that patience in other ways is important though. Guys are so focused on getting a number. It's like they think that once they have that magic is going to happen. Personally, I've found that not asking for a number or even more so rejecting the idea of talking on the phone makes the girl more interested. More often than not the girls like to work to get it. If they ask once, they almost always ask again at a later date. Pursuing a girl is a bit like driving in snow. You want to make sure you always have forward momentum but if you accelerate too too fast you are liable to spin your tires and go astray. The age gap thing is difficult. If by some chance I do message someone that is more than 5 or so years younger or 10 years older than me I'll point blank ask them if that's a problem and no hard feelings if so. It is afc to do that. But everybody has a different view of what ages are okay to talk to. I figure that I will at least cut my losses in seconds and not have to waste my time. Plus, there are plenty of girls out there that don't care about age at all. Keep up the good posts.

So really you are a guy.
Hullo, Visceral, am Jurupa.
While a lot of girls do have this age barrier there are girls out there that are around your age that date older guys because that is what they are into. There are also girls your age that have this barrier that gets broken by older guys as well due to the older guy having good game.
How are you lowering your value if you send a girl a message on a dating site? That doesn't make sense. That is like saying using direct game on a girl will lower your value. But if you are on a dating site, what do you expect guys to do? Do nothing and wait for girls to message them? Last I check girls expected guys to APPROACH them. Yes more and more girls are approaching guys, but for the most part girls expect guys to approach them.
I think you forget that a lot of girls are not aggressive like you and so they are less likely to send a message to a guy on a dating site, as lot of girls have the mentality that guys should approach them and they should not approach the guy.
Your opinion in some ways is more valuable because you are a girl as you said you are on the other side of the fence. You get to see things that us guys may not see with online game.
I thought it was the other way around?