Heya,

Had a close last night with a sort-of friend from Karate, but have realised that they are not the kind of person I want as an LTR so am reversing out of that as fast as possible... She also wanted LTR but now I've retrospectively turned it into a somewhat awkward and accidental ONS. Anyway, the reversing has all gone quite well and while it's going to be awkward for a few weeks since I was initially worried she'd go completely loco on me and now I know she won't I'm much relieved.

Anyway, again, I'm impressed by your numbers - especially since your message strategy doesn't seem like it would tilt the odds against you getting a meet up. I haven't thought much about my messages and how I get the meet ups or get agreement for them... When you say "tell her why you like her profile" is that more liking the profile and how they've written it or the person do you think? E.g. "Haha your profile made me laugh" versus "Haha I love that you think nothing of doing X"?

Ran into that D3 girl again tonight and pushed her on it. Caught her looking at me a few times out the corner of my eye too. She seems a bit flightish, like a colt, but am just going to be confident and framey around her and push things forward. In other words, taking your advice to heart. How best do I strike the balance between pushing things forward and seeming needy versus making it easy for her so that she doesn't get spooked and wimp out even though she doesn't want to?

For example, there are spare tickets to a big party that I told her about when I ran into her this evening and I've said I'll forward her the details. She's hesitant (she says) because of cost but maybe she's also hesitant because there wouldn't be anyone else there that she'd know... How do I balance encouraging her without making it seem like I'm encouraging her because I need her? I think I will mention that lots of my friends are going and that they're great, it'll be fun etc. Keep it light. What do you think?

Your framework for first messages may be very helpful. I have started using it already and it will be interesting to track how it performs in comparison to my usual less structured approach. I will - when I have a chance - try and think about how I get to the meet up so easily. Maybe it's my profile? The reason I say that somewhat off the cuff is because (1) I do a lot of stuff, I'm very active with things and (2) I make that clear on my profile. Just tonight I've had a couple of people message me and ask and both would clearly be happy to meet up straight away. The activities almost provide an excuse - at risk of them just using you for the activity and having no romantic interest, but you can probably build that using standard techniques.

Re: your body, removing variables and similar. I don't know what you look like but I think that most body issues are self-confidence issues. A beer belly's a beer belly, but I'm always amazed at what girls find hot... Still, being fit would never hurt your chances...

Now, that D2 that went really well but all of a sudden flaked. There are several things that might have happened:
* She might have decided you were creepy and doesn't want anything to do with you
* She might be really really busy with work or study all of a sudden
* She might be playing hard to get

Maybe there are other scenarios - but I'd be willing to bet on the second. In any case, yes, calling her again is AFC but you've got nothing to lose by doing it and it seems pretty clear she's not going to reply to your past messages. Give her a week or two or more to miss you - and maybe reply if she's truly snowed under, that's happened to me, but give her a ring. It shows guts and interest and if you have to leave a voicemail then keep it brief: "Hey, it's Nimbus, call me back".

Conker, thanks for your thoughts re: D2->D3 transition, the getting physical is something I've been classically bad at, but a problem identified is a problem half solved...

P.

hey buddy.. hope all is going well..

did you have sex with her? im curious to hear more about it.. was she a friend and you started being a little more sexually vibe with her? and did it develop that way? and normally id say if you dont want to do a LTR, just tell her you dont and sometimes theyre ok with just a f-buddy, but sounds to me like you got a psycho vibe from her, in which case id say get away sooner rather than later..

"I like your profile" says "I like the person you presented in the profile, and would like to see more of what you are like in real life" Ive noticed lately that women interpret everything you do in a relationship context until theyve safely LJBFd you..

unfortunately, you cant push to meet without being needy/ pushy, especially if shes really hot... its about giving the vibe that draws her to you.. confident, sexual, will ravish her if she gives you the chance (dangerous), but okay with your life whatever she does... now that being said, imagine it like this.. hot girl walks up to you.. your breath is racing.. she says "come back to my place with me".. you have to be at work in 5 minutes.. you say "no".. she says ok.. and just walks away... now imagine the scenario if instead of her saying "come back" she said "can you pass me a straw".. get it? its a vibe plus stated intention... no push..

tickets to a party.. well, i think if she is hesitant to have you spend money on her its a sign she doesnt want to feel obligated to you.. id try something shed enjoy that doesnt cost much money.. but you can always say they were corporate tickets and didnt cost money but the key is right there, when she waffles, just say "hey just thought you might be interested" and act like you're okay with taking someone else.. get it.. and then def ask another girl

I do get girls (rarely) ask me to meet straight up, but they are usually not very attractive (for ref.. HB7-8 is like a minimum for me.. and i know my HB 7s are like HB8s for most guys)

As for the body thing, i think its important to really hot girls in the beginning if you dont have a friendship to fall back on, or some other value.. money, etc.. the main thing is the abs, though.. after that, its pretty much variable by womens tastes..

As for my D2..
** almost def not a creepy factor thing..
** i know from our past discussions shes not busy.. she actually had the day off tue the last day i called..
** i thought it may be the playing hard to get thing, but i normally only call twice.. I hate playing that stupid game.. and the really cool girls can get you interested without having to do childish games like that.. if she following the "Rules" and waiting for the third call, maybe calling in a couple weeks will work...

honestly.. i dont really care all that much... decided im going to view each date as a learning experience and a chance to have some fun dating.. just getting comfortable with "dating" to where i have a cool vibe about it.. i figure if im getting 1-2 dates every week, why stress about one? the numbers will eventually play out for me.. had a date last nite and seemed to go pretty well.. ill call her tomorrow and make future plans..

btw... i tried at the end asking "so should i call you to see if we can do this again?" at the end of the date.. said in a confident, non-AFC gentlemanly way.. she responded enthusiastically yes.. though ill believe it when i get the D3.. lol

anyway.. good luck this weekend..

im really interested in seeing how you went from the firend only to sleeping with her.. a situation i have is with a girl where we really dont have any of the same circles, activities, but we were dating for a bit (and sleeping together) but she decided she just wanted to be friends...

now i do *genuinely* want to be friends with her but id like to hear how it works if i let it slip to friends only can it get resurrected later if the time is right for both of us..

now, shes *very* interested in being friends, and im a little unsure how to start it up, cuz it has to be a direct choice to do stuff together, but im curious to hear how it escalated from there for you...

well, looks like i got my first D3... im going to dinner with the one from thursday again sun night...

thank god i got past that.. lol

well, interesting thing i noticed.. i always assumed social status played a part in this stuff. it always seemed to be that whoever was the least attractive of the two on a date was the most interested...

but i realized thursday night thats true, but not the way i thought... i thought it had to do with the value a person brought to the date (looks, popularity, etc) i realize now it really has to do with social skill (defined as comfort with self in social situations)

I noticed she was a little nervous with me, more than me, and i realized i wasnt feeling really like i would look forward to seeing her again. she was attractive, maybe a HB7. what was interesting though is that if she had been more confident and comfortable with herself i would have liked her more. that realization hit me like a load of bricks..

if we can be completely comfortable on dates, and confident in ourselves, what it does is makes the other person feel so comfortable that they cant wait to hang out with you again... (its not a panacea) but i think that is really the key to everything...

so i guess the goal is to really just keep going on as many D2s as you can until you feel completely comfortable with D2s and once you get there things will change...

but interestingly, now i got past this D3 sticking point, I know i *can* do it, so i dont have to worry about it anymore and can enjoy going on as many dates as i can fit in a week!!

im feeling really good about the future..

Well, one doesn't like to brag... Anyway, yeah she was a vague sort of friend from Karate, and it was just a gradual escalation over time plus some connection stuff. We were out clubbing and I danced a lot with other girls too, showed them some basic steps, and I think that helped me with her (DHV). Anyway, we had a coffee which she thought was going to be romantic but I broke us up straight away instead and then we spent the time in semi-comfortable social chit chat. So - safely ejected from that one now and probably without too many wider social consequences e.g. at Karate which is good... a close one!

I think there's a frame difference between being needy and pushy too, and maybe that's the key. Needy is "I want something from you, but if you don't give it to me that's OK", and pushy is "I want something from you, there will be consequences if you don't give it to me". It's always about having the power to walk away - I think this relates to your self-comfort and confidence stuff too, good points and I'll come back to those later.

I've realised though that with Girl B and the party and other stuff, we have sort of slipped into a needy dynamic, which is bad. So I'm going to walk away and maybe something will happen in the (distant) future, but nothing right now. It's quite an expensive party - a ball, $100 - so I wouldn't buy the tickets for her anyway and it would look way too creepy/supplicating for me to do that too, but the reason I suggested it is that she had said to me she was keen to go to one... Ahh well.

I wonder if a different tone to your final comment would be better? I.e. "Let's do this again, I had a lot of fun - I'll give you a ring" rather than "So should I call you...". Just a framing type thing, but it's the same pushy (former) versus needy (latter) difference I think.

Which is exactly what you said about comfort and social ease - if you're questioning them about whether or not you should do it again it's because your uncertain, and uncertain = uncomfortable, at least a little bit. I think you really hit the nail on the head when it comes to comfort in and with yourself so that the other person can be comfortable too. Then the D2 (D3, whenever) doesn't have to be perfect or exciting or fascinating every single moment. It can also be comfortable connection building.

By the way, that's a great way to get LJBF'ed too... or a great way of getting female friends. Which is something I'm worried about with one of the girls I've met online (call her Girl C, A and B are both from offline). We have good kino and good hugs (long, close, lots of frontal body contact). It's been awkward because a couple of people have asked if we're a couple and we both have just laughed at that so we're clearly sending off that vibe. But now that we've both laughed at that (what else do you when you're at this stage??) I'm worried it's set an expectation of LJBF though...

Anyway, she's coming round to my place for DVD's tonight and we'll see how things go...

That's a long story actually... Originally it was a movie last night (Alice in Wonderland, don't care that movies are cliched because I really want to see it) but a friend of hers dropped into town so she said she really wanted to go do drinks with them, asked me what I thought. I decided better not to drag her to a movie when she'd rather be elsewhere, so drinks with friends instead and that was good because it got me some validation and approval from her social circle. Plus DVD's tonight at my place is a much better opportunity than the movies

P.

PS: It is definitely great news for you to get past your D3 sticking point and I think you're totally right - now you know you can. I sort of feel the same way about my close because all my other relationships (I've basically only ever had LTR and not many of them, just loooong ones) started much more slowly. Now I know I can pull things through much more quickly, even if in this case she desperately wanted it too...

hmm... good post..
you're right about the stuff in your post but im going to tell you how i did it to make it ok...

then i have a couple new ideas for us to think about i want to tack onto the end of this..

ok, first off, its never bragging if someone asks you about it.. lol only way it can come off as bragging in that case is if its unbelievable (i slept with 14 women last week, etc.. lol)

youre right about there being a diff between needy and pushy, and if that helps you clarify yourself so you can check yourself if you see yourself sliding there then use it, but it seems to me that either method shows her you need something from her and will have the same effect (DLV)

you're playing that with the party right, but do you have to skip it if she doesnt go? if she doesnt want to go then why not go yourself? you might meet another single girl there and it being somewhat exclusive, you should have less competition.. i think you have a good opportunity here, esp if the kind of girl you like is into these kind of parties...

you were right about framing the last phrase.. i did it from a completely non-needy frame though.. it was more of a "should i call you again or should i just walk away frame" rather than a "can i call you please frame" if you can imagine that.. think of the movie "Shane".. i was pretty confident she wanted to see me again though, so that helped too

not sure if that would have worked if the outcome was more dubious.. but i think it made here feel more comfortable because even though i was taking charge, at the same time i was paying attention to her needs...

if she's coming over to watch DVDs you are not LJBFd. women *never* put themselves in a situation where you have the opportunity to escalate unless they want you to.. the only other option is if you are so completely LJBFd that you have no chance, but if that was so, she would have protested when people referred to you as a couple...

definitely escalate with her, but let her communicate (2 forward, one back..) you seem to communicate/ connect very well with women so if you confidently escalate but dont forget your ability to communicate, you should do well. you may not f-close tonight, but you might.. either way, if you get to a kiss, you are progressing.. any further is just bonus..

btw.. very good non-needy agreeing to go out with her friends last time.. that was totally a test to see how badly you needed to escalate with her and you totally passed.. and the friends validation was a bonus (and the validation was from you passing the test as much as from your personality.. )

im liking how we're both making progress! good luck tonight!

new thing.. another girl.. was intimate with her but she stopped it.. basically she
wasnt attracted (definitely not a physical thing) and she has been very enthusiastic about being friends, and responsive to texts and phone calls.. am going to ask her to go shopping with me but i have never "persued" a friendship with a girl.. all of my friendships just happened naturally.. same social circle, things just developed. i am interested in being her friend, because i want to learn more about her.. 2 reasons 1) i really liked her, think she is a very special person, and think being friends with me will truly be a positive thing in her life (and she obviously believes so too) 2) i want to get to know here better because event hough she may not want me, i would love to be with someone like her and would love to learn how she views and thinks about life...

so im going to take it very slow.. start by having her help me go clothes shopping next week, but do you have any other tips for me?

thanks..

as for new thoughts:
1) i realized i really would like to have someone i can do regular datey things with, but if im not into her really, its almost like id rather not do anything or do it alone because i feel icky inside when im wasting romantic moments like that with someone i dont like.. and thats probably how women feel in the same situation...
changes perspective on asking a woman to do something...

2) we are being highly challenged by the rapid evolution of women.. from david deidas stuff, i am developing my feminine side in order to communicate better with women when what i should be doing is gettin more in touch with my masculine to attract her more.. that masculine side will come forth unconsciously on dates and the more feminine women, which i truly am attracted to, will sense that and respond.. and nowadays, women are so developed in their masculine side, that they need a *very* masculine man to help them unleash their feminine side..

Haha, yeah, I know, but just being blunt and saying "yeah, I did" isn't really me I see what you mean about girl agreeing to DVD's too... As it is she bailed as she was too hung over from the day before. She didn't seem that drunk but oh well. Anyway, I made her feel a bit guilty about bailing and played really casual "oh cool, well, I'm heading away next week , so maybe see you when I get back". Now I'll just wait for her to FB me, which she's done a couple of times before so I'm sure she'll do it again...

I'll be going to the party anyway whether that other girl goes or not - was kind of an off the cuff invitation for her since I thought she'd enjoy it and it'd be a chance to move things forward for us. It's probably not now because I don't think she's going, so I'm just going to let her cool her heels a while. The Easter vacation is very well timed for that...

One question I have for you is about travel. I've started chatting with a few girls who live in other, nearby towns. It's really easy for me to get out there. I think I'd rather they came and visited me, but what do you think? I'd love to know how your experience with distance has gone!

Anyway, yeah, we're both definitely making progress - I'm off in a couple of minutes to go try a new form of dancing a friend invited me to, and I'm using your tease/show read/question message approach and it's working incredibly. I haven't bothered to count numbers but my reply rate has definitely jumped and I'm getting better convos too. By the way, dancing is incredible! Except for the girls I've met online almost everyone is through or interested in dancing somehow, and suggesting to a girl that you should go dancing always seems to disarm them too. It's good technology.

Good call getting her to go shopping with you. I think something like that is also a natural PUA forum too - assuming basic fashion sense/consistency on your part already it means taht she makes suggestions and you get to approve or reject them, which puts you in a strong frame. Plus if you get anything she picks then she's sort of invested in you, by definition she thinks you have good taste in clothes etc... I think you'd have to play it right, but something like:

Her: "Ooo, what about this...?"
You: "Hmmm... Maybe... Actually, yes, definitely - that'd be great! Would go so good with my X and my Y and I could wear it all the time. Nice eye...!"
Her: "Oh god, take me to bed. Right now."

Oh, sorry, that was a tangent. Friends. So I heard a very interesting lecture series today that was about how people's social circle changes over time and what affects emotional closeness. For guys it's doing stuff together. For girls it's talking. Now this was guy-guy and girl-girl interaction, so guy-girl friendships might be a blend, but I reckon that if you keep just talking the friendship will build. Probably shouldn't be just talking, but to avoid tripping the "he's trying to hit on me" alarm maybe take her along to stuff which is explicitly mixed (guys and girls). Don't know how hard that is but it's also a chance to show some alpha. Organise an expedition out to the movies. Or a picnic in the park for you and all your friends. Sell it differently to guys and girls, but pretty soon you'll be "the guy who always makes awesome social stuff happen" and that's a good place to be.

Oh, and another lecture also made the point that friendships decay, and that - this is all according to the numbers by the way, they can measure this - online stuff is far worse at maintaining friendships than phone calls, which are in turn far worse than actually meeting face to face. So keep the coffee flowing

P.

Here's a neat trick that I've just discovered to speed up meeting a girl you've met online - it's really improving my numbers!

1) Message a girl and ask to meet pretty much straight away (I just tack it on the end of your three-step first message template Nimbus)

2) Wait till she replies, if she agrees to meet - great, if she ignores it that's OK

3) In your reply again ask to meet

4) Wait a few hours, then send a "Sorry, just realised I'm being really forward, it's totally OK if you want to send messages a while longer!"

This totally disarms your earlier request to meet and calms her "internet creep" alarm, but also sets the expectation that you will meet - and all because she's replied only once. Even better, the few times I've used it the girl has always agreed to meet pretty much straight away. That's probably just luck, but this is powerful stuff... And my problem now is that I don't have enough free evenings! (I do lots of other stuff so I'm usually pretty busy.)

But actually, I'm seriously thinking of pulling myself out of the game for a while. I've realised I don't need an LTR right now, and hunting for one is taking up a lot of time. Maybe I can better spend that time doing other things.

It was quite funny how I came to this thought actually - I was having dinner with my ex of some months ago, we still get on great but not as a couple, which is actually quite nice. Anyway, she embarrassedly admitted that she was sort of seeing someone, a real beta type, but it makes her happy. What made it strange was that this didn't bother me at all. I half thought it wouldn't, but I was still surprised to discover it didn't at all. I think that's a good sign, in lots of ways. And it led me to question whether or not I really need a relationship right now. Might have to get out of the habit of looking, but I'm feeling very centred and happy with myself, so I'm sure I'll be able to

P.

*bump Nimbus*

Have had a lot more good experiences myself, will try and write up some kind of overall summary in the next week or so too but work and life has been manic! First chance I'll get to have a break will be on the coming flight to LAX, though there's some work I should probably do on that flight too haha... Life's tough

P.