wow.. threads getting interesting..

Conker, thanks for chimning in. yes, its been the two of us going back and forth cause we're working hard to get this figured out, but i think both of would welcome any input offered...

i think yes there is a lot you could teach me. i have only had two LTRs in my life and one i was very unhappy with and one I was happy but she wasnt my soulmate thing.. i have had a lot of ONS and ST (usually ended by me after I got bored - when i was younger) but the sex is more bountiful and satisfying in the LTRs (plus theyre just better things to have IMHO... ) so i guess we are opposite in experience.. lol

but anyway.. FB message? not familiar with the term..

conker, im going to try to help you out with his assertiveness question.. its not about being assertive, its about being available.. best way to learn this is to watch how women discuss their availability and see what they does that makes them seem difficult.. they seem to be able to do this naturally. we have to actually have stuff in our lives to be good at this...

conker, i have to agree with you on the value thing. ive found the inital reaction to her is very important.. especially if she is much prettier than her pics (been getting that situation last few D2s) but I think i am having a hard time controlling the frame internally, which is why i am going to try more active first dates.. allows me to distract her from my reaction if necessary. lately i have been seeing very perceptive women, who are very experienced with men, so they see things quickly.. its hard to hide things from them. but if you have any other ideas on setting the frame internally (obviously the best way is to actually have options and standards) if you are very interested off the bat.. do you look for flaws? psych yourself up? review options if this doesnt fly? just roll the dice? i used to meet women in general hanging out with my friends or whatever so there was never an issue with too much initial reaction because there was other stuff going on.. love any ideas on that.. (its all internal, i know.. just looking for how others work through it)

poisson, this may be for another thread someday.. once we get past D3s.. lol.. but id like to talk to you more about the LTRs and women friends.. i am starting to meet a lot of women i would like to be more a part of my life and i dont think im calibrated properly for it.. (women in 23-28 range).. i have an expectation in my mind of how things should progress and maybe it comes off as needy if its too fast but callous if too slow.. i also found that with the higher quality women, the friendship portion is critical to moving it to a LTR.. most women will sleep with you if you can push their sexual buttons, but if they dont feel a deep comfort and a solid friendship they will want to continue dating other people and after a couple of months will want to end it (unless the sex is *really* good) i think the ability to connect better with women as friends is critical for moving to the next levels... and i guess if they are already friends and there is a sexual spark of some sort, they can see themselves in a relationship because they already feel comfortable..
which is why i was saying earlier that for you, sexualizing may not be as important as just being comfortable with doing so when it comes time to show her that you can..

also, one other thing from my D2s which may have made them so confusing..

someone said its like applying for a job.. company will get 50 resumes, of which 5 they will look at further. the truth is, they would hire all 5, and be happy to do so, but they only have one slot so they have to find the one which is the best "fit" for the position.

so realizing that, D2s may have actually gone well for me, but I was slot #2 or #3 rather than number one. and the things that can affect that are too varied and out of our control for us to waste time on.. so i should consider it a success to be one of the top 5 and play the numbers game from there...

i texted the D2 yesterday (made sense because of our convo) and she responded late that night pretty enthuasiastically. called her today to see about doing something but she hasnt called back yet.. ill let you know if it becomes a D3.. im not hugely interested in this girl, but if I know i can get to D3s, ill be ok, and she will always be someone cool to hang out with.. keep the neediness out of my life.. lol

well.. no D3.. i just finished talking to her.. its all very confusing.. she seemed so enthusiastic when we were talking and was completely engaged in the convo, so eventually i just asked her to do something..

and she said she didnt think she wanted to persue this.. she felt completely comfortable talking to me, had a great conversation, etc, but wasnt feeling anything of a romantic nature... and shes not lying.. she was *very* comfortable talking with me.. got the impression she wouldve talked all night if i let her..

so thats 3 for 3.. obviously im not building a romantic type connection..

now, that being said, me and her had a really great talk after because we're both new to this, and it seems women are expecting the sparks right off with someone they met online (internet's supposed to be a time saver, right? ) and every girl seems to know another girl who met her current bf online and the sparks just flew the first time they met.. yada yada..

so it seems the connection is *critical* on D2s from the internet... but when i thought about it some more, lately i have been having trouble building romantic connections with women i meet offline as well. i think its been a couple years since a girl went gaga over me.. when its offline though, they usually have dated me for a while before leaving so it was harder for me to see that the problem may have been in the very beginning..

she also said that she noticed something was not quite right later as the evening progressed. (she didnt know either way when she met me). so that tells me that i do have a chance in the beginning if things go right. im not being written off immediately... if that helps anybody who wants to chime in with advice..

so the question is this... is the romantic connection something you can build, on the D2 or while dating? the same way you can develop attraction during the approach? or is it something that has to be there (like everybody else outside the PUA community will say if you ask them)

if it is something you can build, how do i go about building it? i guess i dont have a lot of D2 type experience because everything in my past happened naturally (ONS, ST, etc) and i really didnt think twice about it if i didnt get a second date back then..

i know i am not being completely comfortable with myself, and i thought maybe lack of comfort was making things not connect for her (by making her feel uncomfortable from my discomfort), but this girl was *completely* comfortable. she said she couldnt tell at all i was nervous.. she said she was... theres something more i am not doing..

im thinking it may be related to her emotional reaction/ triggers...
im sure it will help if i feel more passion for the girl, but its hard to have passion for someone you have not met in person (ie internet).. but im leaning toward guessing i am not generating an emotional spark.. does that sound on the mark? am i not generating enough emotional reactions in her? am i not being mysterious enough? is it subtle DLVs i am missing? what do you think?

and thinking about it, maybe i need to get offline and practice building emotional connections in the offline world.. a girl you meet offline is more likely (i think) to give you a second chance if she doesnt feel it right away.. and i can limit myself to women i feel a spark for, therefore making it easier to get passions/ emotions stirred..

love to hear anybodys thoughts on this..

Example - Saturday I was able to get to a point where I had her full attention and she finally put herself out there and dropped hints about not having anyone to go out with tonight......... and I played it "too cool" by not responding to it straight away, later on when I took her up on the offer and she'd changed her mind and sent me on my way.

That's happened SO many times, and when I'm honest with myself about why I'm not responding positively to them, it's a "fear" thing about coming off as too enthusiastic.

But if you are still setting the frame as - this is something I'm interested in and trying to see where it goes, you can say with confidence "Yeah let's do it - it'll be awesome" and she will not only be happy that youve responded positively, but excited about your enthusiasm to have a good time.

Once you meet physically, if you're not physically escalating, yes, she's not going to "feel" anything and by the end of the night, that's it. She needs to feel physically aroused.

Test the water, try things physically, see how she responds. If she doesn't make any reciprocation, back off, don't continue. Because if she didn't enjoy it, she will enjoy it less if you keep it up, and if she did enjoy it, she'll quickly reciprocate in some other way soon enough or make some other physical advance, because she misses the feeling.

This is something you can only do by putting yourself out there and trying - if it goes badly, deal with it. Learn to do it in a way that if she turns you down, it's no big thing to you.

im doing kino.. light kino at first.. slowly advancing if she responds.. maybe i can choose venues that would allow for a more sexual vibe/ escalation, i have to think about that..

Hey Nimbus, Conker, everyone,

Yes, this thread has been extremely useful so far. Far and away the most informative time I've spent on these forums.

FB message = Facebook message. Similarly, what's ST?

Anyway, I'm a definite fan of LTR. For a while I wasn't, but I've realised that actually (a) the sex is better - much better, and it gets better and better over time and (b) I really like the companionship and comfort. Of course an LTR gone bad isn't good, but that doesn't mean the good times aren't great!

Nimbum, good thoughts re: internal frame and having something there to distract. It's also something to talk about and keeps the interaction flowing. A friend of mine swears by dinner dates with girls he's met in clubs. He feels that the dinner provides a structure and flow to things and helps the interaction. He's about as English as they come though, and quite well off, so he's not talking burger joint but proper 3-course meal somewhere. That's an option for a D2 from the internet but it a bit intense, unless you've been messaging for so long you're risking the friendship basket. Maybe one way to get the comfort of long acquaintance without the boredom of friendship is just to reply slowly, always leaving a couple of days? Of course then you risk falling into the situation I have with that girl, where we're both playing the busy card and everything's stalled...

Anyway, definitely happy to talk more about female friends. I really believe the key is the same as with male friends, just spending time and having interests in common. You can push friendships to grow and blossom a little bit faster if you like, but as you note you can't go too quickly else people get a bit weirded out. At least, I've got a bit weirded out when someone's pushed it a bit faster than I would have liked. We're friends now but it was a strange dynamic for a while. Point taken re: being willing to jump off the bridge when the time comes. I think I am ready now wrt close friends I've always sparked with. Just trying to find my way into situations with them where that's an option now...

Sorry to hear you're D3 didn't work out. Interesting to hear what her motivations for using the internet were. That's important and I'll try and find out the same from mine when I see them next... Like Conker said I think the sparks either have to be there or built right from the start. I think your innuendo suggestion is a very good one for that. Basically get her thinking about sex. You still might not be her type, but if she's not even thinking about that kind of thing it'll never even be an option.

Maybe part of it is also being emotional yourself. Not necessarily for the girl - that could even be a bit intense - and not just in a creepy NLP type way, but if you allow yourself to become excited by things and life in general then you're much more interesting, alive and fun to be with. So it comes back to telling exciting stories and stuff too I guess. Or is that already the state for you? I think that's what you're talking about with the emotional connections in the offline world? I think this is sort of what Conker was talking about in his reply where he quoted me as well.

I wouldn't worry too much about your lack of comfort either - it's probably a case of too much mindchatter. I might just be projecting my mind state on to you here, but I know that I often focus too much on the little bit that went wrong, when almost everything went right - not just wrt girls, but for everything. That might be what leads to the difference in perceptions, why she didn't notice your discomfort. By the way, I think it's great that you can have this kind of post-mortem/debrief with her afterwards almost, and it sounds to me like you made a real connection at a friendship level even if not at a romantic level. I'd keep in touch with this girl, just as a friend, she could be great.

Conker - good thoughts re: being enthusiastic and setting the frame. I will give her a ring later this week if I don't run into her at dancing and make stuff happen. Thanks also for your thoughts re: escalating from the start. Reading what you've written it sounds very right to me.

In summary: Things are going well, will push it all forward later this week

P.

ok.. time for updates and replies.. I think i may have gotten a D3!! more on that below...

definite fan of LTR too.. but they're really f**in hard to get in to if you have any kind of standards (and prefer to be with women who have standards too)
lol.. but having a cool hot girl you enjoy hanging out with is a lot better than wondering whats behind "door number 3" with some random girl.. lol

but hey.. its all a processs.. its easy to get a girl to like you as a person but the really cool ones are always getting pressured into being in relationships so you have to be *super* cool about it... and they have to *really* like you to take themselves off the market like that..

ST.. i dont know my jargon.. (i should just probably spell it out if i dont know.. lol) but i meant Short Term Relat.. basically exclusive dating until something better comes along.. when you said FB, i thought you meant Fuck Buddy and it made the rest of your post more confusing.. lol

i think you are right about leaving the day or two to reply.. one of the congruence tests of a man who is the prize is that he's challenging, which means "not always available" (among other things).. so its good, but if you wait too long, shes just gunna think you werent interested and move on to the next day.. waiting one extra day, two tops is my sense of it ..

so, as for the previous D2 with no D3.. her thoughts were that she was expecting much more of a connection on our first meeting.. and thinking back on it, i was not very sexual with her.. much more familiar.. hey, women want excitement and fun!! thats why they go out with us!! so, yes, she was expecting a lot right off the bat.. and i was lazy because i assumed i had done all the attracting through email and phone, but truth is i hadnt... so i guess the lesson is that you have to expect to start attraction from almost the beginning when you meet in person..

so.. latest D2 report.. I THINK THIS WENT WELL!! i tried my new tact of doing something fun! not just a dinner or coffee.. so i signed us up for a beginner dance lesson... instructor taught us salsa and it was fun!! i kissed her mid-way through the date (as soon as i had a strong feeling i should) as we got in my car to go to a restaurant, and she loved it!! had about 3 make out sessions in the night.. she was like telling me she wanted kids, asked me if i wanted any.. even told me she likes to fool around with girls.. (and when i played it cool, she made a point of mentioning it again.. lol)

but anyway, lot of thoughts on this...
first, i kept it fun in the beginning.. her first impression was having fun! not nervous chit chat (for her)
second, dancing let us do a lot of natural kino.. and she had to let me lead a lot.. great stuff!!
third.. i was mindful of my mindset! a truly cool guy would not think it was a big deal to be on a D2. i kept reminding myself of that and used self-image exercises to make sure i was in the right state (or help me do so at least.. lol)
note: part of that was to make sure i didnt react much if she turned out to be really hot.. i think showing too much of a reaction too soon sets the power curve way out of your favor too early..
** and of course it was **REALLY** tough when i showed up and she was like 10 times hotter than her pics.. her pics were 7-8 range.. in person she was a high 8, maybe a 9.. lol
fourth, i forced myself to pay attention to her and the present and not think about myself.. it was tough but i was somewhat successful...
and i remembered to tease her (C&F) whenever the sit naturally presented itself..
fifth, end of the night, i made sure i didnt show too much enthusiasm over seeing her again.. a challenging guy with options wouldnt do that..

in all i think i played it well.. and she kept talking about future stuff during the night, so i think this might become a D3.. ill find out tomorrow..

on to your other thoughts.. you are RIGHT ON THE MONEY about the excitement. a guy who has a fun life would be excited about life and very upbeat in general..
im glad we worked that out.. funny how you can forget those kinds of things..

you are right... it was mindchatter.. the self-image excercieses definitely helped.. and i am getting a little weighed down by the lack of success im having lately.. not necessarily kicking myself over details during the nigth, but an overall sense of negative expectation.. its hard to fight.. have to really remember the successes..
and youre right, she definitely could be a good friend.. she basically responds whenever i text her.. almost like the last one.. its a good connection...

as for female friends, you are right.. its all about treating them the same way you would treat your guy friends, or at least being as cool with it, just remember they are women.. someone on here said it.. its like having a guy friend except you could imagine fucking her.. its a pretty cool mindest.. and kindof a cool thing.. heck, your friends will usually do just about anything for you... lol
a girl i really liked just told me yesterday that she didnt have strong feelings for me but really enjoyed my company so i would love to back and forth with you on that.. may be another thread...

ill have more tomorrow..

Hey, congrats on the D2!! More on that later, I'll mostly reply in the same order you did to keep a structure.

Agree that LTR are hard to find, in some ways it's just as difficult for girls though, maybe even harder because there are so many guys out there who are just out for a fling or who don't have and aren't willing to get the maturity to handle an LTR. I wonder if that changes how the pick up works slightly? That thought only just occurred to me and I haven't thought about it, but it could be really important. What do you think?

My experience with waiting a day or two to reply is that it has never caused problems... I guess because in one or two days her availability won't change much. Ironically the D2 that I put in the potential friend basket is getting back in touch with me and seems really keen again. Maybe did some accidental push-pull here, I'm not really keen but let's see how it goes... Whatever the situation though I don't want to just use her for anything, because I think that's wrong.

Another one, we haven't had a proper D3 yet but I think she wants it - keeps suggesting things to do, reacts keenly to things I suggest. Just severe calendar issues. She said sorry for being such a flake on FB chat a couple of days ago, I sort of only half let her off - "yeah, but hope you're as tasty". That was maybe a bit obscure - reference to Cadbury Flake chocolate bar - but she didn't seem to mind. Now though I'm just playing it cool. If anything happens between us, well, great, otherwise she can just be busy. Will do some push-pull there I think, but I have to tread carefully because though she's very good looking her self-esteem seems fragile...

Anyway, I've got the perfect K-close for if a D3 ever happens, something along the lines of: "So how long have we been trying to organise this for... blah blah... So it's all become quite an urgent issue really... Are you a good kisser?" Then probably go straight for a K close or escalate quickly depending on her response. Basically I'm not going to mess around and I'm sending her those signals now, that plus the tedious waiting game gives me scope to escalate it all faster if anything ever eventually happens.

That's a really good point re: the difference between "e-attraction" and "attraction" in real life. I will definitely bare that in mind in the future - got another girl who's agreed to coffee or cocktails sometime when we're both not busy... Yeah, my busy-ness is a bit of an issue, but everyone in Oxbridge is busy!

Your D2 sounds like an insane success too, that's awesome! After she's acted like that around you she'll want to keep acting that way - her desire to be consistent is on your side now, and it sounds like you're pretty hot for her too! I think your 5 bullet points are all good ones too. What is your plan here?

My unsolicited opinion, for what it's worth, would be to drop her a text or message the next day, something brief that doesn't require her to respond (but if she's keen on you she probably will) - just something like "hey, really enjoyed last night, thought the whatever was great/that you're the most amazing kisser/whatever". Or don't even add anything after "really enjoyed last night" if you want to leave her hanging a bit more. Then maybe give her a call later in the week "hey, how are you, blah blah blah, look, I'm going to whatever tomorrow night, and i'd really love it if you could come along, you free then?"

Not quite sure about the wording of that - "you free then" sounds a bit AFC - but I don't think it's bad for you to show that you want her here, again - her desire to be consistent will play in your favour and probably makes that kind of thing from you OK because it validates how she behaved.

Also, was just thinking about your earlier thoughts re: getting girls as friends and had some further thoughts. Yeah, a sexual spark can start things off, but any shared interest. Then there's this interesting phenomena where you sharing stuff private to you makes your friendship stronger, encourages them to do the same, and you get a feedback loop going. Combine this with the kind of stuff that girls do when they're LJBF'ing you and friendships grow very quickly, almost more easily than amongst guys. Because with guys there's always an element of competition, not so in guy/girl friendships...

Ciao,
P.

ill just follow your format too.. seems to work..

yes, LTRs are difficult for everybody.. and every time you meet a girl, you have to not have her lump you in with someplayer or immature guy thats tough.. and seriously, nowadays, it seems women are much more comfortable with just casual dating.. perfectly fine with waiting to find something more serious..
but they do have the advantage in that they can always keep a guy coming around for sex.. lol.. im sure they have more fun doing that than we would trying to keep a woman coming around with money.. lol

i think it definitely changes how pickup works. if a woman has decided she is looking for LTR with you her checklist should be *much* longer for a D3 (even a D2)

and i think that may be part of the problem with online dating.. i think that if a woman takes the step of going online and puts the work into it, shes looking for something serious. if she wanted fun, casual dating, im sure (if shes attractive and cool) she could find that easily during the course of her regular day.

personally, i know i am about 2-6 months away from putting myself together enough for a real seriuous LTR, so i may benefit from getting offline and persuing other venues for a little while...

as for 2 days wait, i think we are solid that that works.. but im really beginning to think something.. if a girl has any reservations on you in the beginning online, theres probably no chance you're going to be able to be that perfect check list in person.. and maybe we should look at the little things in the beginning to test that.. although almost all of my D2s have dropped their plans and one even drove an hour to see me so maybe thats not a good indicator...

keeping the e-ttraction in mind helped on this last D2 but wasnt a panacea.. she didnt respond *at all* to my texts.. makes no sense.. i left her a vm tue (probably a bad idea cuz i had been up 48 hours straight... ) and no reply.. then sent her a text thurs no reply.. saw she had gone online only about 20 mins after i sent the text and still no reaponse so obviously this is not going to be a D3.. i dont even have any idea on this one... far as i can tell it was played right.. sometimes the home team just loses i guess..

and truthfully she was about 45 mins away.. may have been a factor, who knows.. she may have met another guy after me.. whatever... guess it doesnt matter what game plan i use if she doesnt respond.. lol

personally i think maybe by persuing offline a little more, i can remove all of these variables from online (geography/ e-ttraction/ LTR lists) and just be down n dirty dealing with tightening my game.. (can you tell im getting discouraged? lol)

i mean in truth, i should be very encouraged by my results.. they say 50% of men online never receive a response from women (at all) and when you think how many emails a woman gets the fact she is responding should be very encouraging.. im going to take what i learned here and apply it offline and vice-versa..

i think starting this week, i will only allow myself one hour online dating for every two hours offline meeting people / being social... maybe that will help..

as for the friendship thing thats good stuff! im dealing with a LJBF sit now and want to stay in as friends for now.. i think that will help me build a great freindship.. i dont know if there is anywhere here we can do a thread for friendships, so i guess we can stick it in here for now or just do pm..

----------

kind of interesting thing, though.. i sat down and started to figure some of the numbers....

I talked to approx 90 women online over the past 2 months....

of which 55% responded (sounds pretty respectable)
of which 53% gave me a phone number, etc (same)
of which 45% met me in person (pretty solid numbers)
of which 20% met me again (maybe need some work)
of which 50% got to sex.. (solid)

but when you throw the numbers in its interesting...
55% of 90 is ~52
53% of 52 is ~22
45% of 22 is ~10
20% of 10 is ~2
50% = 1

so ive heard that if you talk with ~100 women, by law of averages you will get with one.. but seems here that even with pretty solid game at all steps, 1 / 100 is a pretty solid number.. even improving my 2nd meeting number to 50% would have only gotten me laid one or two more times per 100...

so that really resets my expectations a bit.. I think in the back of my mind I expected to get involved with at least 10% of the women i talked to....

if you extend those percentages out .. 50% physical leads to dating, 50% dating leads to relat (very optimistic numbers)
it underscores how difficult it is to get where you want with this...

by the numbers i currently have, i would need to talk to 150 women to get laid twice and no idea how many to get to a relat... wow..
if i can get my 2nd meet pctg to 35, and turn 50% of those to dating and 50% to relationships, i would need to talk to about 100 women to get laid, 200 to find someone to date, and 400 to find a relationship...

so wow.. im expecting way too much.. what do you think of my numbers?

[Edited for clarity]

Hey,

Agree that a girl who's looking for an LTR will have a longer and probably very different checklist... But I had an interesting experience yesterday that makes me think that could actually be an advantage. This is all guesswork, but here goes...

Initially my flake had agreed to do a movie sometime this week, but she cancelled on that and suggested coffee instead, so I agreed but with quite a brusque email. Anyway, we caught up for coffee on Monday, and that was good, lots of chat, minor kino (hugs) when meeting etc. In a rather AFC like way I brought up her flakiness and asked whether or not she actually wanted to go do dinner. Like I said, very AFC. She seemed to think it over for a long time but eventually definitely agreed and our conversation continued from there. Departing hug was much more full on, but I broke it off early which prompted her to reach out to touch me for more kino.

So - theory - when I did that AFC question, maybe her pause was her thinking much more consciously about whether or not she wanted to be with me, and her closing kino and other bits of the conversation I haven't explained in detail seem to mean "yes". I think this will make it easier for me to escalate things in the future because she's kind of expecting it and has sort of mentally agreed to it already - plus it's with the expectation it's for an LTR.

Basically what I'm saying is that if she's looking for an LTR, your game might not have to be as smooth in some respects right now.... you can get away with being a bit AFC, especially if it DHV's other qualities (willingness to risk rejection). Maybe even showing a bit of a weakness is a good acid test for an LTR candidate. If she burns you on it she probably wasn't an LTR candidate anyway...

I think the intentions of women who put a profile online are going to be either LTR related or fling related. Probably not much middle ground? Or do you think the ones who say they're just up for sex are also looking for more of an LTR? Which sites you do use BTW? I like matchdoctor and okcupid.

Sorry to hear your D2 didn't pan out into a D3, but I think there's a bright side to all of this too - you had a great D2, and it's a chance to get insight into what happened. I wouldn't write it off either - leave her for a bit, take someone else to the same class, do a bit of push pull, maybe invite her back later on...

Anyway, also good point re: removing the "extra" factors. I still think the key is to take the online stuff face to face as quickly as possible. An accidental tactic I used was to go to a cafe but that place was chocka - so we went round the corner to a cocktail bar. Helped that I list 3 or 4 of my favourite cocktails on my profile so it wasn't "out of the blue". Might try that "accidental shift" again in the future...

I'll keep thinking about friendship too. I find it hard to organise my thoughts on it... One option is just to be a good happy companionable conversationalist. If you talk long enough with any girl eventually their attraction will die, but if you're good to talk with they'll enjoy that and a friendship will grow. I think friendships (with guys too, but especially with girls) grow over a much longer time frame.

Basically even if she's attracted to you can just keep talking if you want to LJBF her - most girls aren't forward enough to make the first move, they'll just send signals and hope you take them hook line and sinker... Thinking back on it I've done that a few times in the past actually. And some of those I'm now resurrecting into LTR candidates

Now, numbers. I like your numbers, in fact I like numbers in general. Mine are very different, which makes me think our styles are extremely different, but also I haven't been doing it for as long (~1 month)...
I've tried to format this nicely in a table, now let me explain what it means. "Initiate" means either one of us sent the other a message, or they winked/poked at me (to which I pretty much always respond, I never do winks/pokes). "Conversation" means they've replied at least once to a message I wrote them. All of my conversations are electronic - I don't do pre-meet phone calls. The last two rows are obvious, but the in-between rows represent my conservative estimate of those in the above row that'll also be in the next row pretty soon... More of the conversations could be Meets, but at this point I start filtering as well and some of them are both ugly and bad conversationalists or they live too far away, so I'm just gently closing them off or putting them in a holding pattern.

This table and in comparison with yours suggests a few conclusions:

1) Lots of the contacts that girls initiate don't even get to conversations either. That's partially because I sometimes write too much in my reply (heh, this post an example) but also I guess because a wink is a pretty flaky way to start a conversation...

2) A comparatively low proportion of my messages - regardless of who starts them - become conversations. This suggests I'm doing something wrong here.

3) Is the phone conversation that you do prior to meeting necessary? Could it just be hurting your numbers? May be a cultural difference here though... to me it would just be weird if a girl wanted to talk on the phone but not physically meet so I assume they feel the same way.

4) I'm not as good at pushing things to conclusions... but give me time, my first meet (dancing one) wasn't keen at first, but is increasingly keen, was very kino last time, has pretty much agreed to coming to my place and watching movies on my laptop this Saturday... No prizes for guessing where that one's going...

5) I think we have a lot to learn off each other here, e.g. you might have good suggestions on how best to respond to winks or short messages from girls, plus how to initiate a conversation, maybe I can help with the re-meets and conversations that lead to meets?

P.

It's very simple - you are the man, the initiator, so you will contact her more than she does, so don't worry about that.

Set the frame in the first message - if you send a nice "how are you" kind of message, that's not very compelling to reply to. But if you find something about her that you can ask a question about, in a way that seems like you are sussing her out, she will be very quick to talk about herself and make herself sound cool. Or if she's shy she will be kinda apologetic (if so you shouldn't qualify her too much - but still do it gently, like you are giving her a chance).

And yes, the phone conversation before hand is good. It's comfort building. You might find she builds up stress and flakes out at the last minute. So if there is like, a week to go before you meet up, keep the connection alive with the occasional jokey message, and most probably call her to talk about what you're going to do together, even get some ideas from her - though if she keeps saying "I'm not sure" or "I eat anything" then she wants you to take charge, so do it.

Poisson,
I think you're right. We seem to have complimentary skills in game. I just reworked my numbers to consider women who cancelled thier accounts, and it changed to (using your defs..)

contact me her
contact 76 7
reply 63% ----
convo ~90% 100%
meet 42% 67%
meet again 20% 25%
beyond... 0% 100% - if she meets again, its pretty much on..
(and i dont think thats me, i think
thats just the way of it)

So yes, i do very well in the convo parts, and you do better when you meet..
Now, as far as contacting me, I didnt really keep track of women who contacted me for which i had no interest (and i do get 1 every day or two) so that number is off..

as for your D3, your assessment was right. when you made her think about it, she realized that she was holding you off for the wrong reason (and, ironically, you confirmed it was not just a scheduling issue when she had to think about it.. lol) but one realization i had recently is that in order for a girl to fall for you, you have to have them fall in love with their mind.. and that comes from them reaching the conclusion that you are what they decided they want in a man (combo of little girl dreams, male role model influences, and life lessons, etc).. so when she thought about it, and decided she wanted to persue, thats why you saw the additional kino, etc.. i think that was a very good sign...
now your job is to be confident that you are what she wants (notice i dint say that she decided to want you.. understand the difference) and use that confidence to comfortably escalate. if you show insecurity here, it will cause her to question her earlier conclusions.. think about this paragraph and make sure you understand it before you meet her...

as for the phone/ email thing, its definitely an America/ Europe thing (maybe an America/ world thing). I wouldnt put much faith in a meetup set up by email here and most American women probably woudnt either.. if its to meet doing something i normally do, then it would be a really low-pressure thing, but meeting people here almost always requires a coordination of schedule/ location.. in America, usually if a woman gives an email and not a phone shes not interested. if she wants to do IM its because she wants to get a sense of your personality and doesnt want you to be able to contact her yet..

the phone convo may be hurting me in that it may be raising her expectations (as opposed to the casual vibe of the email meetup) but i think its necessary.. for me, if not for her..

lets think a little about how we can help each other with our weak areas and get back together on this...

I think im going to work on my body, then meet women offline. going back to removing variables, if i am meeting 50% of the women i talk to in person, then i'll know its not a body issue, etc. its hard to tell a physique from online photos, so maybe mine's not inspiring them.. lol.. also, in person will tighten up mu facial/ body language.. i think if i focus on that and get good at meeting women in-person, that will translate back to more online D3s as well..

Conker,
thats very good phone and message advice. Poisson, defintiely listen to that.

I would also add, my general first email format is..

1) find something to tease her about (if you can be funny, its by far best, but sarcasm works too).
2) tell her why you like her profile (nothing about how hot she is, not even 'you have a nice smile', *nothing* physical) - you should be genuine so read her profile and find something real
3) ask a question about her - no one word answer questions.. and the questions which ask about who she is are far better than those asking about what she does (i.e. "why did you become a teacher" vs "what grade do you teach")

it helps to read her profile and take a minute to get a sense of her, but if she doesnt write a lot, play it a little mysterious because obviously thats what shes doing too...

conker,
if you have any general good advice for D2 to D3 transitions id love to hear it..

some other things from your note...

yes, if shes looking for LTR its okay to be a little AFC.. ive had girls say to me before that they only talked to me because i was a little hurt or shy or something and later tell me that if they had met the real me at first they would have ignored me thinking i was a player..

online yes, LTR or fling.. maybe dating for a cpl months if they're new to the area.. and most of the flings will be either biding time til get back with ex or web cam.. lol

sites.. i use plentyoffish.. figure what works for one should work for all... keep it simple.

do you really think i should call that D2 later? she did not reply at all to my texts.. not even like 3 days later.. "hi, sorry, i was busy".. im taking that as a strong statement she doesnt want to see me again. it would be different if we were ffiends before but that was our first meet.. maybe youre seeig something i didnt?

Still working on that, hahah. My current working theory is it needs to get physical in some way the first or second time you meet. Otherwise it's too late. She's not seeing you in a physical sexual way and you're friend zoned.

I believe you get no more than 2 chances with a girl (whether it be from doing something bad, or something you should have done but you didn't). Sometimes you get a second chance because even if you screwed up, she might be willing to believe it was an accident or it was circumstantial. Second time it happens, it's confirmed.