I wasnt sure if this was a D2 question or a Relationship question, so I posted it inn both. Let me know if I need to remove it from one..

ok.. im basically right now meeting girls online... i usually geta a response from
1-2 of every 3 girls i contact.. which isnt a bad rate.. and a few contacting me...

of the girls i chat with, almost 100% eventually give phone #

of the phone #s, 80-90% turn into D2s...

and about 50% of them i am interested in seeing again.

now once im making the connection and setting up the D2, things go well.. get these kind of messages regularly "i cant wait to meet you" " definitely looking forward to meeting " "ill drive out to where you are. i dont mind driving.. ", etc

every girl im on a D2 with feels the need to comment on what a great time she is having (eveb grabbing my arm and saying thank you.. im having a great time~
but im getting no progression after?.... some will kiss me after, some i held back on escalating to kiss, no difference..

im the same person on the phone as i am in the bar. and i look like my pictures online... so what else could possibly be different on person?

i am a little nervous meeting someone the first time, but its not debilitating or keeping me from having a fun conversation... last one having so much fun lost track of time and it was only when my phone rang she remembered to check the time about seeing her dad.. im5'4" which is an insecurity of mine, but doesnt seem to have been an issue to this extent..

so basically, anybody have any ideas why i might not be getting past D2s? i thought it might be neediness, so i have been keeping an eye on that but no results.

obviously im missing part of the answer, but maybe somebody can help me figure whats up?

its getting to the point that I'm reluctant to meet any of these girls in person because I'm afraid to burn opportunities without knowing what I'm doing wrong..

I know I'm not creepy or anything.. after my D2 last night.. (she practically ran out after saying she had a great time and hasnt called me since), I went back to the bar and hung out for a couple drinks.. next thing I know, I'm hanging out with 3 guys and about 7 HB9-10 girls and we all went to another bar and were dancing, drinking, and grinding on the dance floor...

I know I'm completely missing something.. any help would be appreciated..

Hey,

I don't quite know what you mean by D2's but I guess you mean first coffee/first meeting or something like that? I'm playing around with this online stuff at the moment as well and have had a similar experience, including people contacting me. But I'm really new - like only been one one site and only for one week so far - so I'm still learning. By the way, this seems really really useful:

http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/2010/ ... -pictures/

A well written profile (punctuation, grammar, not too much detail but being interesting) seems important too.

Anyway, I'm so new to it and so I haven't got to D3's yet. Basically I've had coffee dates with a couple of girls and we've organised D3's for both of them. Here are my stories.

One was just a standard coffee date, hugged at the end. She's really keen on dancing so we're gonna go do that next week or something and I'll location shift to a cocktail bar afterwards or something like that, standard kino escalation after dancing should be pretty easy.

Second one was really good, chatty, lots of her mirroring my body language, a hug at the end I missed a moment if there was one so I didn't push for anything too awkward. We'd talked about doing dinner sometime, but me: "oh, but I'm a bit tight right now. Look, why don't I cook for you sometime instead?" Natural segue to a dinner date at her place Tuesday next week

So, a summary? It seems to me that the first meeting is always getting to know each other. I push for those as quickly as possible because bouncing emails back and forth seems a path to LJBF, but then being too anything at that first meeting would be culturally weird in the UK and I want to leave a good impression. But I've made sure to organise something with potential for us at the end of the first D3 - basically showing a bit of leadership, pushing things forward and assuming it's on.

Don't know if that will work, but it seems like it should to me
P

hey thanks for the reply.. a lot of people didnt touch this one and i think its because it is a really difficult topic...

it sounds like we're both about in the same place.. about a month ago i took the time to really learn how to write a great profile and the response has been tremendous..

my problem seems to be at the end of the D2 (first coffee/ get to meet each other) there is no interest on her end in getting together again..

i build a lot of comfort on the phone (week or two worth) and the girls are usually calling me every night before we meet first time, so shes definitely interested, but the meeting doesnt seem to go well for her..

im starting to look up some info on D2s and it seems that the thing is to make a great D2 impact, then things will progress.... I'd be interested how things progress for you and I'll keep you posted how things go for me...

from my limited experience so far I think I am starting to realize two things..
1) a D2 after meeting someone online is even more critical, because this is the first time you meet in person (as opposed to meeting someone in a club or something) so I would imagine you really need to make sure you make it great for her...
2) watch out for expectations. i think that since i built so much comfort (great conversation/ connection) before the D2, i had an expectation that things would go well and maybe i got a little lazy and caught off guard when things didnt go well..

thats about all i have so far...

I'd definitely like to compare notes on this as we move forward. would be good to work on this together.. we can do it by PM if you want, but if we leave it here, others can chime in if they have something to add...

looking forward to working with you on this..

Yeah, I think it is a difficult one too - but I've also realised that in time it doesn't matter! Because it's a step by step process, and once you've figured it out you just move on to the next step... So first you get to D1's/messaging back and forth, then you get to D2's, then you get to D3's. And even better, this applies to pretty much everything in life. It's a very powerful realisation, that you can fix and improve everything in your life

Now that said, one of my D3's (the dinner one) just bailed on me, but you don't win them all and I've had more indicators, more IOI's from other people, so I'm not too fazed. I do a lot of dancing, and there are people there who are clearly there to pick up, and the girls comment on those people to me, but if you actually enjoy it it's clear different. Honestly enjoying something is (a) great! and (b) very attractive to people

I'd be really interested to hear about your experiences and thoughts on making a strong impact on a D2. I'm also keen to know how to put a sexual frame around it too and your thoughts on how to do that best!

It's interesting that you go from messaging to phone calls. I had never even considered that - I always just push very quickly for a face to face meeting (they message me, I message them, they message me, I message them and suggest meeting), but maybe phone calls and then more of a classic first date would be better? All my first meetings are coffee in the afternoon, just friendly get to know you stuff.

Would love to know your thoughts on all this, if you have any particular questions or want me to explain anything in more detail just ask away

P

Actually, this just came through by email, so quite an urgent one that I'd love your comment and thoughts on.

The situation:
A sort-of friend that I've always flirted with, lots of IOI's and very chatty. We were going to meet up for dinner this Wednesday, but she bailed on me - a close friend's unexpected birthday party. I've confirmed through mutual friends that the party exists and has only just been announced so it's legit.

Edit, more detail: I called her and left a voice mail, but my mobile is flakey so not sure if she tried to get in touch with me. Therefore emailed her this morning and suggested movies on Saturday when we are both regularly busy with sports teams. This was motivated by (a) it's the earliest night I am even potentially free, and (b) I wanted to put a bit of frame and alpha and control in the situation, basically a compliance test on her.

She's replied and is keen on movies, suggested next week, but feels bad about going to the movies on Saturday because she'd be letting her teammates down. If I pushed her I believe I could make it happen that night, but I'm not sure I want to turn it into a battle of wills or have the evening start on a bad note. We're both genuinely so busy though that I feel like I almost have to push to make anything happen now, otherwise it will just drag on and the attraction will die.

I have a couple of other girls floating around, D3's and old friends I flirt with a lot. Maybe I could rebound off them - or use her as a rebound instead. Any suggestions you have on how best to do that would be great too!

Thanks
P

as far as phone, that may be a US/ UK thing.. its much more normal for people to talk on phone here than email.. i think it would be even wierd for me to meet a girl before i heard her voice..

ok.. that said.. your issue..

I'm almost afraid to answer you here because I'm not sure I have the answer and I don't want to give you bad advice, but if we're going to work through this together, I think we should share our thoughts and see what we can come up with together..

i hope this doesnt get there too late, but lately I have seemed to realize that neediness may be affecting my D2s (dont know in your case)... and making them not go well..

after talking with a girl for a while and her talking about sleeping with me two times a week and coming over to cuddle after work, it builds it up a little for me before the actual meeting and I think I am coming across a little needy in my D2s.. i took a break from D2s for a bit to clear my head and thats what I came up with.. im going to look into that in my next D2s...

the reason im telling you this is that I realized that *any* kind of pressure with girls met online will seem needy.. theres a bunch of guys pressuring her.. better to actually pull back further than her if shes too difficult to meet, and see if she comes your way a bit.. (not sure of details on execution yet)

but seems to me if you push hard for this sat a conscious or subconscious part of her will wonder why you need this date so bad and why you dont have other options...

i have been having some success with telling girls early on that i am seeing other women i met online, that seems to give them more of a reason to make time since i may not be there if they wait...

in your case, you met her in person, so if she knows you have an active life (women) you dont have to worry about seeming needy as much, but i would suggest if she doesnt make time for you a second time to back off and not ask her to do stuff again for a little while.. just always display your cool personality when around her.. she will notice you stopped asking and think she might have lost you to someone else..

now on my end, as soon as it stops snowing here (we've had 20" plus every 4 days for 3 weeks) im going to get out and start building my social life offline more (women). i think you can only pretend to not be needy for so long. you have to actually *not* be needy because women detect that stuff easily...

can you help me out with some calibration? it sounds like you have been getting to D3s. any of those from women online? how often in your opinion should i be getting D3s from women met online just by law of averages? of the women i met for D2 and was interested in D3s, i only got 1. of the women i wasnt interested in, only 1 of 4 wanted a D3, anyway. so that says my D3s are low percentage (2 in . I know i only have a few under my belt, so i am probably overreacting to the low number, but i was suprised how low it was and just wanted to check on it... ironically i have an almost 100% D3 rate with women I meet offline, its just so much harder to meet them that way. what do you think? am i focusing on something i dont really need to worry about?

you know, i fired off that note this morning because i wanted to get you my thoughts before you had to make a decision about your date tonight..

but i was reading your last two posts.. and putting them together with what i came up with, i got a few new thoughts..

1) your whole attitude is that each part is just a learning experience.. im going to take that attitude because that will make it fun for me.. and probably make the vibe more enjoyable for everybody... i know you were talking about dancing being fun, but making the whole thing fun is a good idea.. i think thats gold.. dont lose that..

2) seems like your D2s are going pretty well.. better than mine.. with the earlier revelation, I'm wondering if I'm building too much connection before meeting.. if she has an expectation going in, too, it may be more likely for her to feel disconnected if i dont match what she created in her mind.. if she is just meeting me with a whatever mindset, she may be more willing to see what develops..
not sure if im going to change things, but i need to see about this..

3) sexual vibe on D2.. its much easier if you meet someone in person first.. women i meet offline, i have 50-100% want to see me again after D2, but D2s with women met online are very different, so you have to be careful with sexual escalation on D2 online. I would think play it down unless she initiates and just try for sexual escalation on D3.
You can do non-sexual things which set the right tone... playful kino.. anything involving playfully lifting her/ etc.. but i would think that more escalation would have to wait, because a lot of guys online just go for sex when they meet the girl..
of course if you meet her and feel nothing and all you want to do is have sex, i have done that.. doesnt happen often, but it does.. just finish your coffee quick and take her to wilder and wilder places.. make it a party night.. have lots of fun.. if shes in for it, and you do that, you'll probably have sex. if not, you had a good night, not just a boring coffee..

Hey there,

Clarification: the girl I pushed for a movie with is actually an old acquaintance, so I've seen her now and again and have her mobile and could have called her. In the past when I've called I've sometimes gone to voicemail though, and I didn't want to do that again, so thought I'd break it up with an email.

However I've been happy to go straight from online to face to face with no phone call in between. I don't know if that's actually a good idea or not. I might try the phone call first thing and see if it means the first coffee can actually be less of a purely friend-level "get to know you" and more of a date?

I think a social life offline is really important - gives more social proof, and a skillset, plus things to talk about.

I also think you're right about neediness. I hadn't really thought about how it would look from their perspective - I have been feeling very centered on myself, so took on the attitude "no point faffing about" - but it probably has been coming across wrong. So for example, I haven't heard back from the girl about the movie, or one of the others who wanted to go dancing and so I suggested a time and place, but now I'm not going to chase them with a follow up. I'll just do my own thing and let them have their space. Hopefully they'll stew in it a little but even if they don't it doesn't matter and I'm sure I'll hear from them in good time

Good call re: letting her know I'm seeing other people I've met online - and offline too. I need to think about how to fit that into the conversation without making it taunting or obviously chest-puffing (don't know if that would work in USA, don't think that would go down so well here), but it all comes back to social proof I guess.

Re: calibration, I should be honest - I haven't been online for long, so don't have that much experience. Two D2's, a couple more in the pipeline. One of the D2's flaked as a D3 but is still really keen on meeting up as friends (so that'll widen the social circle at least). I've agreed to go dancing with the other one but I haven't heard back from her when I messaged her last so I'm just going to let her have her own space for a while. What that means is no D3's have actually happened yet. Hmmm.

That said, I think that if you can get to a first meeting you should probably be getting D3's about 50% of the time, and more if you include "just as friends". This is because you have already sort of matched online and have some common ground, so what it depends on is chemistry clicking on the day. It seems to me that a few factors feed into getting D3's in general, not sure how online stuff affects that:
* Making concrete plans to do something at the end of the D2 - not doing this has been my weakness
* Leaving her with more about you to discover, so maybe even teasingly not telling her some things on the D2 "And that reminds me of X, when... oh, but I can't tell you that yet!"

Thoughts?

Finally - this message is too long! - v. good points re: kino escalation for meeting people online. I hadn't really considered the playful kind of kino, or also the way you're going to be perceived. I am still learning so much! But having a good time doing it

P

Hey bud,
I'm really glad to have somebody to bounce thought on with this.. and I think hearing somebody else's stories helps me put my stuff in perspective..

so i really dont know if email to meet or phone first is better. and it may depend on our personalities. i dont think i can pull off an email to meet so it may be up to you to experiment with which works better..

i think on the phone you can do a little more C&F on your toes and show some things through voice tone, but whatever works to get the D2 which goes to D3 is thebest, right? lol

how do you go about setting up the meet through email? what if she doesnt get the email in time, or needs to tell you shes running late?

the neediness thing is going to be interesting for both of us to work on next few D2s.. i have one tonight so ill let you know how it goes..

but as for letting her know you're dating other girls, it definitely cannot come across as chest-puffing. i dont think that would fly anywhere cause that would seem like massive insecurity. its been pretty easy though for me to bring up casually in conversation. at one point in some phone convo she's going to ask what i did for the week or the weekend and all i have to do is mention i went on a date one of the nights.. i havent quite figured out how to deal with it when she asks if im seeing her again (esp since im not getting D3s yet.. lol) but usually i just shrug it off and say 'hey, im here to meet people. arent you meeting anybody?'

as for "just friends" i think its harder with people you meet online because they're not in your regular routine (unlike people you meet offline) so it would be a little work to meet as friends, but its not impossible if you have similar interests. i think for that im going to work more to be able to pivot off them.. for instance the ballet dancer i had a D2 with 2 weeks ago, i may take a future D3 to one of her shows and go introduce them after the show.. (bartenders, dancers, athletes, etc.. may be good for that) but if you can work the friend thing, let me know.. def looking for ideas..

i think you are 100% right that the D2 from online is all about chemistry. thats where im a little confused because my pics are accurate and they like my convo, so what is not clicking for them?

i would love to see 50% of my D2s get to D3s (and it was what i was kindof expecting, so 0% was tough.. lol) ... looking forward to getting there!! lol

but i agree that not telling things, being mysterious will help get a D3 but the real deal is whether or not shes feeling chemistry.. not quite sure how to work on that one without knowing what shes seeing in person that im missing.

as for locking down plans for a D3, i would say dont do that.. thinking from her point of view she would want a day to think about your first meeting so trying to lock her down might seem a little needy/ pushy.. i would think its best to be confident and call her in a day or two to see if theres a D3 (unless of course youre getting MAJOR IOIs and shes practically begging you to take her home lol) but i think you're actually ok doing what youve been doing there, because if she liked you the couple days will make her wonder if you liked her..

as for length of post.. i dont mind you doing long posts.. we're doing brain dumps here and the more stuff we put on the table the more likely we'll find a solution in the mess of info... put down everything you're thinking. i want to hear it... but if you meant that my posts were too much, ill include an executive summary for you.. lol

Hey bud,
I'm really glad to have somebody to bounce thought on with this.. and I think hearing somebody else's stories helps me put my stuff in perspective..

so i really dont know if email to meet or phone first is better. and it may depend on our personalities. i dont think i can pull off an email to meet so it may be up to you to experiment with which works better..

i think on the phone you can do a little more C&F on your toes and show some things through voice tone, but whatever works to get the D2 which goes to D3 is thebest, right? lol

how do you go about setting up the meet through email? what if she doesnt get the email in time, or needs to tell you shes running late?

the neediness thing is going to be interesting for both of us to work on next few D2s.. i have one tonight so ill let you know how it goes..

but as for letting her know, it definitely cannot come across as chest-puffing. i dont think that would fly anywhere cause that would seem like massive insecurity. its been pretty easy for me to bring up. at one point in some phone convo she's going to ask what i did for the week or the weekend and all i have to do is mention i went on a date one of the nights.. i havent quite figured out how to deal with it when she asks if im seeing her again (esp since im not getting D3s yet.. lol) but usually i just shrug t off and say 'hey, im here to meet people. arent you meeting anybody?'

as for "just friends" i think its harder with people you meet online because they're not in your regular routine (unlike people you meet offline) so it would be a little work to meet as friends, but its not impossible if you have similar interests. i think for that im going to work more to be able to pivot off them.. for instance the ballet dancer i had a D2 with 2 weeks ago, i may take a future D3 to one of her shows and go introduce them after the show.. (bartenders, dancers, athletes, etc.. may be good for that) but if you can work the friend thing, let me know.. def looking for ideas..

i think you are 100% that the D2 from online is all about chemistry. thats where im a little confused because my pics are accurate and they like my convo, so what is not clicking for them?

i would love to see 50% of my D2s get to D3s (and it was what i was kindof expecting, so 0% was tough.. lol) ... looking forward to getting there!! lol

but i agree that not telling things, being mysterious will help get a D3 but the real deal is whether or not shes feeling chemistry.. not quite sure how to work on that one without knowing what shes seeing in person that im missing.

as for locking down plans for a D3, i would say dont do that.. thinking from her point of view she would want a day to think about your first meeting so trying to lock her down might seem a little needy/ pushy.. i would think its best to be confident and call her in a day or two to see if theres a D3 (unless of course youre getting MAJOR IOIs and shes practically begging you to take her home lol) but i think you're actually ok doing what youve been doing there, because if she liked you the couple days will make her wonder if you liked her..

as for length of post.. i dont mind you doing long posts.. we're doing brain dumps here and the more stuff we put on the table the more likely we'll find a solution in the mess of info... put down everything you're thinking. i want to hear it... but if you meant that i needed to shorten em up, ill include an executive summary for you.. lol

Hey there,

Yeah, agreed - being able to bounce ideas back and forth is great, and the length of your messages isn't a problem either. On reflection I flagged message length because I felt my message was getting a bit rambly, but that's not necessarily a problem

I guess my process for setting up a meet by email is something like:
1) At the end of a message I just suggest coffee sometime, in the past always in the context of what I've got planned this week/how busy I am - i.e. the message is "I'm busy, if we're going to meet we need to schedule".
2) Wait for her response, if she suggests somewhere, time and place - great. Otherwise if she expresses interest (so far she has always done this) I suggest a couple of times and places and we go from there and work out when and where works.

Then there's the issue of sorting out the logistics of it - that hasn't really been a problem because it's always been 3-4 days in the future, but it's also a reason to give her your number if you haven't already swapped numbers. In my (limited) experience she'll then give you her number back. But that's just a coordination issue - I think that if she's keen on coffee you can work out the details like this at any pace.

Good idea on how to slip other girls in without chest puffing. Thoughts on that in my AAR as well. Most of my good friends are girls anyway, and I think that that is my biggest problem. I am very good at building friendship bridges, so even the one who flaked on the D3 is still keen to be friends, but out of habit and also fear of being rejected I think I'm often the one who puts the girl into the friend basket rather than the other way around! It comes back to my uncertainty on how to sexualise/kick things up. I guess I just have to grow some balls and risk getting rejected, but any advice you have on this would be great!


How'd your D2 go anyway? Hope it went well! I had a D3 last night which was interesting. It was at a dance class, and I realised very quickly that I wasn't interested in her - no chemistry, she's just not my type, plus her life is in flux and she probably won't be here much longer. So I'm not interested and she's not really either.

We went out for a drink afterwards anyway though and chatted for ages, often about really personal stuff - there's that friendship basket thing again. On reflection I could have done things differently and increased the chances of kino/a fling. Mainly I needed to maintain a stronger frame, and I could have shifted us to better locations for kino. But I'm learning.

One thing that was great though was that she was the perfect pivot at the dance class, some old acquaintances were there too and I saw the looks on their faces, and one of them was showing us the proper hold afterwards which involved a lot of chest-to-chest contact she initiated, and she had a playful pull on my hair too. So I got some good DHV out of the night

Another thing the D3 mentioned that I think was really good comes back to your point about internet/neediness. She seemed uncomfortable with the idea of shifting to any sort of physical relationship because it came from the internet... That might not have been a deal breaker if all the other stuff hadn't derailed things, but it could be a disadvantage of internet based stuff, an additional hurdle you have to jump. Not sure how much of that is culturally dependent. England can be tediously conservative.

Good analysis re: waiting a couple of days to organise a D3. In that scenario, I imagine the D2 endings going something like this:

Me: "Hey, great to meet you, and I always love the coffee/cocktails/whatever here!"
Her: "Yeah blah blah"
Me: "Cool" - goodbye hug - "well, look, why don't I give you a call in a couple of days or something?"

That puts the ball in your court - you'll ring her, but no certainty about when. Maybe you're blowing her off, maybe not. Or does it give too much an indication that you will ring her. What do you think?/How do you end it?

P

you know, you're right.. the times when i made plans to meet over email, it was way easier to get the number..

probably its kindof like a time constraint.. if you ask for her number with no plans, it kindof gives the message (subconsciously) is this guy gunna want to call and talk on the phone all the time? whats up?

for me i want to get a little of her personality over the phone before i make an effort to meet her, but maybe thats working against me.. gotta think about that more...

it sounds like you want to talk about sexualizing.. what is your current sexual experience level? (you can send me a pm on this if you're more comfortable with that) it seems like you already know that its your own fear of being rejected but
are not sure how to get past it because you're ot sure exactly what you should do...
the key to sexualizing is really all about taking the chance and not trying to hide what you are really looking for.. women want to see that you can take control of this part and be a man and take a chance.. it really is taking a chance, because you do risk having her push you away if thats not what she wants, but she wont like you more or less just because you are being honest about what you would like your relationship with her to be.

i usually start by (slowly) joking sexually with her.. (sexual innuendos etc) and judging the progression by her reaction.. if she jokes sexually back then she's liking it and you can proceed... then in person, light kino, and progrssion the same way, keeping the sexual vibe. you have to be confident when you do this because (in general) she wants to feel like you are in control.. i would suggest starting slowly (with yourself) and try slipping sexual innuendo in with girls you are already good friends with to see how it feels and watch their reactions.. you will learn a lot from this and they are already comfortable so even if they dont think of you that way, they should be comfortable with it (if they're not comfortable with it, they may not really be friends, so it may be good there as well). im just giving you my general method. i am good but not the best at the sexual vibe.. im sure there are guys on here who can give much better advice...

now.. all that being said, although it is important to learn this skill, and to demonstrate to her that you have it, your ability to build comfort and connection with a woman will be a much better asset in getting you sexually intimate with a woman.. although most women will do a ONS and I believe most women love sex more than men, I dont believe that is the preferred method of most women. even the ones who dont want a "boyfriend" would rather have one guy they are comfortable with to sleep with than a random series of guys, even if the guys are really sexually hot..
women can get sex and hot guys any time (if shes attractive) so they will usually hold out for someone they feel a deeper connection to... so although every night there are quite a few women out there looking for one thing, for the most part your odds are better playing the other game... (and the sex is longer term and more frequent, too)

sometimes if i meet a girl (online or off) and i build a sexual connection too quickly, she will actually push me away because those very strong sexual feelings may scare her a little because she feels wierd about having those feelings without having a deeper connection to me (and i am constantly learning more about being sexual while building the other levels of the connection, but you get the idea)

if you have the connection already, you have a lot of time to build the sexual vibe (see her frequently, become part of her life). if you shoot in sexual too fast, its usually one shot... and women online are more likely looking for relationships.. girls looking to go sexual faster will probably be going to the clubs... and for those girls, the rules they give that if you get sexual fast, you can choose the relationship later apply more... in general, ive found that the girls who fall for you over sexual attraction alone tend to be very clingy and a PIA, but thats just me..

so that was a lot, but hope it helps. start with your friends, be playful and fun and just joke sexually with them to get yourself comfortable with it.. start with sexual jokes then joke about sex itself (talking about other people), then joke about getting sexual with her.. go gradual and move as you get comfortable..

my D2 seemed to go pretty well this time. i made sure there was no neediness in the interactions leading up to it and on the D2 as well. i didnt have a real good D2 planned because it was a little short notice, and i had a hard time keeping my cool, enjoying the night, fun attitude because i had the memories/ thoughts of my previous busted D2s trying to push in on me all night, but i think i was able to get past it (couple strong drinks helped). i wasnt huge into her, but i still wanted to see if i could make a good D2 work (she was very attractive classically and a very high quality girl - med school, good family), and in general good company. at one point she mentioned she had to get up early so i thought it was busted, but then she later suggested we stay and see the comedy show and she laughed way harder than the jokes called for so i assume that means she wanted to be in my company.. ill call her tomorrow and thats when ill know for sure. lately i havent been able to trust my assessment of the D2s so hopefully tomorrow ill know I have figured this out.. lol

as for your D3, ive found its rare to find a fling off the internet.. americas pretty much the same. i dont think its conservatism, i think its just from the situation. if a woman's gotten to the point where she's shopping online (and shes attractive and a cool girl, not because its her only option) shes usually looking for something more than a fling... she doesnt need the internet for that.. if she really finds you hot and theres a lot of alcohol, it usually has better odds.. but thats hard to get to from a coffee date.. and rarely what a girl online is looking for.. she may do it, but its not as likely as at a club (IMHO)..

lol.. as far as ending it, maybe i should think about that more (and maybe i should have D2s planned in my head, like some people do for openers) but i guess i usually do something like that..

although thinking back, the D2s that seemed to be going pretty well, when i threw out a teaser hint about us doing something in the future, she usually ignored it or moved on and didnt answer.. so maybe a teaser is a good way to see where you stand and decide if you want to suggest anything at the end of the night.. also may be a way to see how the D2 is going and determine if you need to work a little harder at it or decide to cut bait..

i usually have just ended it with had a good time and ill call you soon.. i dont think i have a good answer for this... but your method of "why dont i give you a call in a couple days" may give her the chance right there to say she wasnt feeling it so you dont waste your time persuing..

question for you.. you build good friendships/ connections. do you manage to spend time with a lot of women as friends? do they go out with you and hang out like guy friends would or do you just happen to be in some of the same clubs together and hang out with them there?

and how do you feel about these friendships? do you feel like you are hiding what you truly want from the women? how do you feel when you talk to them?

im asking this stuff because im trying to learn more about having more women in my life as friends.. (its tough sometimes because women dont seem to usually hang out as friends unless they are sexually attracted)

ive found that i could hang out with women i work with (when i was waiting tables, etc) when we would go out after work, but in general other than that ive found it hard to hang out with women if they were not somewhat romantically interested in me.. id like to hear your thoughts on that..

got another idea.. always thought of first D2/ first meeting as 'get to know you' event. maybe we should try making D2 fun thing.. even if less chance to talk and get to know each other...

make the D3 a get-to-know you event...

hmmm.. i think im going to look into that thought more.. what do you think?

It's just you two going back and forth with the same problem so let me weigh in, it's something I'm dealing with recently.

Sure a dating site, everyone knows why they're there - you don't have to nessecarily go as far as having fake time constraints and all that - but at the end of the day, she has to feel you have high status. No matter what her status is - the shyest, least in demand girls will still be not interested in you if it's all too easy and no fun. ONly the most desperate girls would still want you, and you wouldn't want them for that, you would feel turned off too because you would sense it.

Set the frame that you are trying to work out if she's worth spending time with. Yes you are trying to set up a time to see her, and talking with her and making jokes but don't forget that it's all to work out if she's suitable for YOU. Have that body language - don't give off a superior and snobby vibe, just a vibe that says this is the way things are.

People don't want something that's just neutral, no matter how badly they say they want a partner. They want to be excited, and that means some banter and maybe some decent talks about things that get them to explain themselves to one another and share thoughts - when you're on a topic that they like talking about, ask them questions that get them to explain what their motives are, their feelings, goals maybe... something useful. You'll know if you're just talking about superficial "how's the weather" shit, compared to something that might actually attract someone and make them feel a bond - you'll feel excited.

And then when she starts expressing interest, yes react positive but if you feel you are in danger of reacting too positive, like a puppy dog, frame it so that you're making the decision - yes this is fun, yeah I'll do more of this, sure, let's see where it goes.

[Edited for clarity]

Good idea about making the D2's more something fun than "get to know you" - it means the get to know you can more comfortably be cocktails one night instead of coffee one afternoon, and cocktails is easier to sexualise. The wall I run into here is: what to do? My mind goes straight to dancing, but I'm starting to feel a bit like a one trick pony here. What would you suggest?

To be honest I'm pretty comfortable with my sexual experience level too - I've had lots of LTR, I'm quite adventurous and the girls have been too, if not straightaway then at least with time But you're right that I'm letting the "mindchatter" in my head get to me. It's all about inner game and I need to take the chance, be more assertive. I've sort of been working on being more comfortable with casual kino, and that's been good and now you've said it the next steps are so obvious, but it wasn't to me before - muchos kudos, innuendo is a good plan.

It sounds like your D2 went well too, let me know how it develops! The D3 I called a write-off sent me quite a needy FB message this morning too, but she might just want me as a dance partner. I'll play that one along and see how it develops, but I'm not really interested in that one now. Maybe I can use her as a pivot, but I'm not even sure how to do that. As someone pointed out in another thread, it's a dangerous game - you don't want to seem like a flake yourself, or be obviously using one girl to get to another. If you have any ideas or thoughts at all I'd love to hear them...

In a nutshell, that's the kind of weakness I have - my relationships have pretty much all been long (5 or 6 in total over the past 10 years, and I've never been single for longer than 3 months), so I don't have much experience with the starting-of-them!

Conker - good points about setting the frame and context. It seems a really difficult balance to strike, between being assertive and being needy - especially if it's just by phone or message because then one could be misinterpreted as the other. My approach so far seems to be putting out a feeler and then suggesting something very concrete: "Great, I'm pretty busy next week, but how about X at Y, I love Z's, so let's go there". However, sometimes that doesn't suit them and I've got myself in the awkward situation with one girl where we're both playing the busy card which means I have been able to see her for a proper D3 yet, so things are kind of stalled. Not sure how to push that one forward. Any thoughts?

When it comes to women as friends, that's an interesting one. Most of my friends are girls, as I just seem to get on better with girls than guys - though from a "strategic perspective" that's a social weakness, so I'm filling that gap. Anyway, now I guess almost all of my friendships with girls have a sexual spark of some kind to them, even if it's totally innocuous, but not all of them do - shared activities seem to be a starting point, and then it's chatting and coffee easy enough, in groups or individually. So, for example, after dancing I always pull a group to the bar for a drink and we all just kind of chat there. In my experience girls are always pretty happy to go for coffee individually too - "hey it's been ages, we should catch up" or "never really properly talked, let's go grab coffee".

I guess my thinking is that friendships of any kind are built (at least at first) around shared interests, and then if you can segue (love that word!) into a relaxed group social setting afterwards the friendships go from there? Once the ball is rolling organising events and inviting people along seems to help too, especially if you do it through facebook and they see guys and girls are coming. A mutual sexual spark can probably substitute for a shared interest too

Anyway, I don't know how much that helps but if you want me to try and clarify or expand on any of it a bit more I'd be happy to - having to try and explain it is usefully making me think about it too.

P.