Haven't been on this forum in while, but I'd share this with you guys. Whether it goes well or not it's likely to be a useful learning tool for what I think is a common problem.

Basically, and old friend is around visiting for the week. An HB7-ish by average standards and a solid 8 by my own personal preferences. Also, genuinely the kind of girl I love being around. Basically she's awesome, and once upon a time I fucked up bad.

I fell for this girl before I had ever heard of PUAs and believe me I did everything wrong. I won't bother wasting time relating it. Imagine every stereotypical example of what not to do. That was me. I didn't understand at the time how she could say something to me like "I see how we'd be great together but I don't think of you that way." I look back now and it's all so painfully obvious. I gave her no reason to be excited about my interest. And I had been in the dreaded "friend zone" for far to long.

But this week, I have a chance at redemption. And it all hangs on tonight.

In the time since I've learned the error of my ways, I have done a few things to attempt to give me a second chance with this girl. The most important thing I did was re-define our relationship and make it clear that we were not friends. This is not a universal rule, but I knew that in this situation if she kept getting the classic friendship sort of things out of me that she's always gotten she would never want anything more. So I gave a good break time in communication, and since then I've made sure that anytime we had any conversation, it was based on flirtation. Even when she had a boyfriend. I would just joke about how "shameless" our behavior was. So she knows now that the old "buddy" thing is out. When she initiates contact now, she knows exactly what she's getting into.

There was a point when I realized I could mess that up as well. I became dangerously close to being the one she could IM when she wanted an ego boost. So it was time to add a little more C & F to the mix, ignore her texts every once in a while, that sort of thing.

We've hung out a few times in this scenario, but never for long. But enough to know that she's accepted my new definition of the relationship. Time to ramp that up.

So she's up visiting my campus this week. She made sure to get in touch with me before hand because she would change her plans if I wouldn't be available. I made sure it was always a sarcastic "well I guess..." but let her know I would.

We hung out twice already today, and I think I've done alright. I'm giving myself a B grade right now. Good, but not good enough.

Interaction 1: She texted to let me know she was on her way. I ignored this. She texted later to let me know she was in the student union. Fortunately the stu is connected to the bookstore, and I was on my way to buy books anyway. Perfect reason to show up without being there "for her."

We talked for about 5 minutes then I said I wanted to get to the bookstore before it close, said see ya, and as I started to walk away she sort of awkwardly took a step to follow, backed away, fumbled at trying to speak... Even though I understood I raised an eyebrow. She responded, "Well are you coming back? I don't really have anything to do but hang out here and talk to people." I laughed and told her it was okay, I'd be back.

Got books, returned, caught up on life, mundane stuff. An old boyfriend of hers shows up. I had expected this actually. There's no risk of her getting back with her, but he's an obstacle in that he can take attention off me. We had met before, she had introduced us actually, and he didn't remember me. Not great for me looking High Value, but I made up for it by teasing him a little when I told him my name "for the second time" and just acted like the laid back gracious one.

I played it pretty textbook, talked to him for a few minutes, making him feel comfortable and her feel ignored as two of her guy friends she had driven to visit had their own conversation. Then the two of them started talking and since I had plans in a bit anyway I decided a "cat-string" move was better than risking sitting there passively and outside the conversation (fatal hovering is a weakness I know I'm prone too) so I stood up, told her I was heading to get dinner with some people (i was) but call me when they were heading to the bar. (Going out later was already planned.) She said alright, and gave me a very gratifying puppy dog face as I left that said "seriously? we only got to talk for ten minutes?!"

Interaction 2: I faltered. Moment of weakness. I knew I should wait for her to call, but I was bored and wanted to see her. It'd been a while and I was eager to show myself that I wasn't the same AFC that had once tried to ask her out. God... even that term "ask her out" is so rooted in wrong thinking...

So I did it. I contacted her. Just a text. I knew I shouldn't but that didn't stop me. At least I had the presence of mind to throw in a neg, playing off the "will you be back?" question earlier. It read: Lucky, I got away with it. She was over eager and actually left the group she was hanging out with, telling me with a wink that I was a bad influence (she doesn't smoke often) and saying she'd be right over.

Lucky again, she brought a friend (also visiting), who I talked to far more than her. We hung out and smoked for a bit. Walked down to laugh at a freshman event on campus for a bit. Plenty of fun and conversation with no more "game" than teasing the both of them and always making sure to give her friend a little extra attention. (The friend, who has a long term boyfriend and probably lacks affection, was eating it up.)

Again, proof that sets are always better than solos. Another old friend came up to talk to her once, and she got a phone call. Both times I could just turn to the friend and put all the focus there, demonstrating that she wasn't needed in the least for us to have a great time.

After a bit they said they were going to dinner and invited me. I declined, since I had already eaten, and as a simple "I have other things to do" DHV. Her friend eagerly made sure I was "coming with us when we go out later right!?" Really, it was thanks to her presence that all went as well as it did.

One missed opportunity to note though. At one point I had mentioned having homework and we laughed about the fact that I probably wouldn't be doing that, now worse way to start off the semester then with work. (ahahah, hilarious!..) She made a comment about how she'd be around all week and expecting to hang out, so maybe I'd want to get some of it out of the way tonight after all. I did okay with a "oh you've got my whole week planned out huh?" response that got some laughter. But thinking back I can't believe I missed such an awesome chance to use the "now see, this is why men think girls are so needy." Or the classic "Is she always this demanding?"

Anyway, as I was writing that last paragraph she texted to let me know they were on there way to the bar and would she see me there. I took the fact that she asked if I'd be there, despite already hearing from me twice that I would, as a good sign/IOI. But I may be over-analyzing. I told her I was finishing something up but would be down in a bit. And that if there's not a seat waiting for me I'll be disappointed in her.

So now I'll force myself to wait at least 15m - half an hour before heading down, despite my AFC urge to not waste a second. Meanwhile I'll take some time to prepare for what to do if the ex shows up at the bar.


In summary, I think I'm doing good so far. But I've also made plenty of mistakes already, so I need sharp play from here on out. So, critique and advice while I'm out will be much appreciated, and I'll let you know how it goes. ; )

Okay, this is a way late follow-up. Just didn't get back on here to finish. Here's the summary. Any critique advice is appreciated. There's plenty I did wrong so be gentle.

The short version -- Failure:
I call it a fail. The night of that first post, I did so much right, but just couldn't close.

With strangers, I am a natural closer. Building comfort is a million times easier for me than approaching or opening.

Somehow though, with people i've known a long time like this, I loose all hope. I'm so relaxed I can build value all day, but when it comes to closing I stall. I sit there building value and comfort all night and never move on it. I become a chump.

I sat in this girls car til 4am, with her constantly amazed at the info I was sharing, stories I was telling, etc. None of it was even routines. And I didn't even try to kiss her. Fail.

Redemption:
I redeemed myself a little bit the next night. We went out again, down to pitts. The hoffbrauhouse (sp??) and the Spinx (a hookah bar.) I kiss closed. In front of her ex who had been trying all night. That was a win, but compared to what I really believe I could have done the night before, I feel like I let myself down.


Things I did Wrong:
- Became to passive
For alot of the time, the group all new each other but only knew me through her. Because of this, I often felt "outside" and often let the other two guys really dominate the conversation. I was not the alpha at all the first night.

- Stalled
As I described above, I never moved on to the final stage. I AFC'd up, even when I had awesome opportunities.
Most of the many things I did wrong were one manifestation or another of these two things.

Things I Did Right:
- Built Value
Did a great spontaneous routine that I think I may share in full later. Basically, had told some value building stories about other girls. (Kept classy of course, don't wanna sound like a slut. ) She asked something along the lines of how I "got" so many. I basically told a story explaining how I realized some things about my self confidence and how important it is to have a positive outlook, often throwing in "isn't that the kind of guy you want?" Of course it seemed like I was just talking about men and women in general, but I had her sitting there confirming that she wanted a man with qualities I was describing myself as having.

- Fixed my Alpha Problem
When we moved from the restaurant to the hookah bar, I found a way to take care of the problem I was having with being the "outsider" in an established group. It was as simple as calling up a couple friends in the city (two girls, a 5 and a 6/7) and telling them to come join us. The current group was 2 guys, 2 girls and me, so adding my two friends was all it took to transform the group into two sets of friends that didn't know eachother, but both knew me. Suddenly I was the center of attention.

- Got the K-Close
I need to do a quick post some time on Hookah bars. They are the ultimate instant date. Escalating kino was a sinch. Already lying on pillows, started shotgunning, so easy to turn that into making out.


I wish I could remember more details, but it's been so long at this point. I know it'd be easier to critique my flaws if I had more info, but anything you can offer is loved.

- Peace