Thanks Jon,

I think I may be getting some attention from girls which Dave M of Inside Internet Dating describes as 'troublemakers' those that will not play by my rules.

I should just accept that these are problem girls and I should move on and be grateful I found out their flakiness early.

I also think I'm going through a scarcity phase which is hard to snap out of. I really need to move back home, it's far too limited here. One area of my beliefs I need to work on - scarcity.

One tactic I am trying which goes against a lot of PUA technique is to give out my number first and state clearly that I want to move things forward.

I have literally just checked my email accounts and have one reply from one girl who has rejected a suggested 'date' and given her number. Text is below

"Hi (my name),

Unfortunately I will not be able to meet up with you on Friday, we have a work party. You can call me on this number and we can settle on a suitable time and day for both of us. (her number) have a good day.

(her name)"

Could be worse, but still doesn't look good. At least she has given her number. I'm reluctant to suggest Saturday or Sunday as it appears needy. I'm tempted to text her and jokingly say I'd go to the party with her or jokingly bust her for choosing the party over me. I could do it in 3rd person. Handling this is a weak area for me.

I've had another reply from another girl, well woman and it's a worse situation. I've just realised she's been unresponsive to a request for her number and another 'date' rejected. I've quickly checked through the emails and she's been a bit too uncooperative.I'm going to ask for her number and/or put the situation in her hands.

Has this topic been handled before? I've read a few things about suggesting 'dates' and typically it says to offer 1 day saying you're busy on other days around it. It assumes that this 'date' is agreed. If not , then what next? Suggest another day near that date. That looks needy. Move on and accept that it was not to be. Keep their number and in a week or mores time suggest another date. Keep in touch with them casually and leave it to them.Any other options?

Skypirate,

You have asked me a whole heep of questions about one subject so let's start with the first thing that I noticed. You kept repeating if I do this it looks needy or if I do that it looks needy. Keep in mind Rule and Goal #1 of any online sarging is getting the girl off the damn computer and in front of you as quickly as possible.

With that in mind stop playing games with setting dates and breaking them. In real life it works a bit better, online it sends mixed signals to the girl. You need to be all over getting a date ASAP period. You're online looking for women, she knows it, you know it, I know it, so to hell with looking needy we are being proactive! The longer you wait the more you are hurting your chances and loosing rapport.
It's a great sign she gave you her number! Go ahead and suggest Saturday or Sunday get that date in ASAP so you can get in front of her and work your mojo man. Don't talk to her about going to the party. She's not going to take some guy she doesn't know off the Internet to a work party, won't happen. Too many people there to judge her. Don't make it uncomfortable for her by suggesting this. Just work on Saturday or Sunday.
That's right rule them in or out. You don't want to be waiting forever wondering what if....
I could strangle whoever started coming up with this stuff. It all derives from value shifts and people thinking what's low value and all that crap. Let me say that again, "CRAP." Never assume anyone has more value that you #1, EVER! Problem solved on that end. I know you're not saying that I'm just getting a point across.

Most of my online stuff I am presently still doing is usually talking to them online and then within a few days or even the same day meeting them for a date. Do you think I'm playing phone games and breaking dates? I don't have time for that shit. Strike while the iron is HOT! She's talking to you and interested, great! Building some rapport so she trusts you some and knows you're not an internet psycho. Then get the digits and the date ASAP. I again refer back to Internet Rule #1.

Jon

_________________
Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

Hi Jon,

thanks for your advice.

"Rule and Goal #1 of any online sarging is getting the girl off the damn computer and in front of you as quickly as possible." I agree 1000% with that.

I think I may be limiting myself by thinking what is PUA attitude and what is AFC. As long as what I do works it doesn't matter!

I have mailed the woman that was quite uncooperative, and asked for her number and stated we should make definite arrangements to meet. If she's still unresponsive I'll let her go.

I will speak to the more cooperative one that's going to the party. I'll see if I can try for Saturday afternoon or Monday evening.

It's so ironic that as I'm writing this I get an email from a woman I saw last week and she wants to meet again this Sunday, and a text from this other girl I f-closed some weeks ago and she can meet again this Saturday.

I still have to work on my scarcity belief. I've got little idea why it's 'kicked in' as in the last 2 months I've seen/dated more women than ever before.

Skypirate,

I know exactly what you mean. A lot of guys get limited in the community by their beliefs of what a good PUA does vs an AFC or what they think is a DLV. If I had a nickel for every time someone asked me if something was a DLV I'd be sipping fruity drinks in the Bahamas right now instead of being at work.

The main thing is don't get caught up in what you think is AFC or PUA. There are a lot of "rules" in the community that can be bent, broken, stretched, etc. There are so many ways to get the girl. People do it every day with these tactics and stuff so why should you be any different to that regard.

As far as scarcity goes, its a good thing to have at times. I like reading stuff by Sinn and one of the things he says is that "The lifestyle will get you laid more than anything else." I tend to agree with this point. If you have an active lifestyle where you are busy dating, doing your own thing, and generally happy that will get you further. With online game after you meet then yes it's important to consider not being overly needy and trying to be with her every single minute, texting, calling all the time. But from online to the point of meeting you just have to be proactive as you can to make it happen.

Sounds like you have it pretty well figured out. If you need anything you know where I'll be.

Jon

_________________
Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

In my opinion I believe an online profile with no picture is 100% FAIL. But I'd like to see another take on it.

This thread dilemma-about-photos-online-vt57198.html kind of sparked my interest on it. Takes me back to my AFC days searching for random sex/love on craigslist lmao. The ever present line of "NO PICS NO REPLY".

Is it really possible to be successful without a picture? Maybe like ten years ago, but now with 2010 just on the horizon there is NO EXCUSE(well there are several but not for most people) for not having a picture.

Is it possible to build comfort/rapport/attraction while remaining FACELESS?

Hey Buddy,

With 2010 on the horizon and camera's built into almost every phone and cheap digital camera's everywhere there is really no reason why you can't have some photos on OkCupid or Match.com as the example in the link you posted.

I can understand that particular gentleman's reason for not wanting to post photos, but the fact remains that profiles with photos get a ton more responses that the ones that don't. Virtually every expert with online dating will tell you this! When women are looking through their matches on sites like this they see about 4 things. (Username, Age, Match %, and Photo!) Most women aren't going to take the time to look at your profile to see some explanantion of why there is no photo.

Now, that we have that established is it possible to build attraction/comfort/etc. online without a picture I believe that it is. I honestly couldn't attest to how because I haven't tried to. I just think its going to make online dating so difficult for you to get a response that its just not worth messing with, seeing that most experts say your 10x more likely to get a response with a photo.

~Jon

_________________
Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

**I posted this in the Online Sarging Section too but I have it here so it's easier to reference**

Common Frames with Online Dating

There are some various frames that I have noticed as a pattern through online dating that both women and men have. Many times there are combinations of these frames that come across via a girls profile on an online dating site.

Recognizing which one the girl is will help you know how to prepare to handle your interactions with her, must as you might screen, or cold read in the field before opening a girl. By no means is this a complete list of all the frames but these are some of the more common frames I’ve noticed since meeting women online.

Adventurous Frame- Life itself is an adventure for this person, and life is there to be LIVED! The girl prides herself on her ability to venture out and do things. Many of them enjoy being active and most of their activities are going to involve around that. You won’t find this person sitting at home a lot. The key to this frame is to show that you are like them, and just as adventurous.

When setting up dates with this person a coffee shop won't do, it should be something with an activity behind it. Demonstrating an active lifestyle is going to be at the essence of your messages showing you stay busy and like to be going out and doing new things. You can generally setup dates quickly with these people because they like going out!

I’m comfortable being me Frame- This is another very common frame. You’ll see this as being said, “I can have just as much fun being dressed for a night on the town, or watching a movie at home in my pajamas.” This will be worded other ways too but you’ll see she is demonstrating she is comfortable being who she is. She's not afraid of what people thing of her, or so she says.

This is not a hard frame to match up to but the key here is to be a little bit goofy or quarky when you talk to her to show you are like her in that way and you don't care what others think. You can do this by telling a funny story about yourself.

My friends are so cool Frame- Another one that you will see a lot is when a girl talks about her social circle a bunch in her profile. She will mention hanging out with her friends usually not just once but twice in her profile. You’ll likely see a good amount of pictures of her out with these people.

Your profile is going to be your greatest asset here. Pictures of you out with your friends are going to be the key element. She has to see that you are comfortable and can handle yourself socially as her friends are a big deciding factor in her relationships. Talk about her friends since thats what she likes to talk about, and talk about your adventures out with your group of friends as well.

Tired of playing games Frame- This is becoming more and more common these days that you see people that say they are tired of the games. They will say in the profile that they are tired of the dating scene or the bar scene and that’s why they are online. In some cases this is done indirectly where they are telling how they are different then the vast majority of women. Most of these people are trying to get into a serious relationship without the major fuss of dating a bunch of people.

Again, not a hard frame to build rapport or comfort with. You can mention this in your profile if you like that you are tired of the bar scene but make sure its congruent with your pictures. For the most part I don't say this in my profile because I like going out. Easiest way to build rapport with these people are talking about how in general most guys and women are just out to get one thing, and how you are sooo tired of it!

I’m too cool for this…Frame- A lot of these will be short and sweet profiles. The girl doesn’t write much information at all. They assume they are just above filling out the profile and that you should know they are so awesome and cool.

These are tough to deal with because we don't have a lot to go on in their profile. Sometimes this is mixed with the other frames or can be a stand alone. This is where having a strong frame comes into play. When you write your messages you need to be direct and confident while leading her with what to do. Something like, "Saw your profile today and it seems you have some good things going on for you. I tend to stay pretty busy but wanted to see what you're all about. Message me back and I promise I won't bite, but I may nibble a bit."

Something like this message gives you a strong frame that you are a busy person too and are too cool for this by showing your short on time. You are also directing the interaction and being a little playful too which generates the fun.

Quiet Type Frame- This is the girl who usually starts out with saying something like, “I don’t know what to say or write…” Then she goes on to write the rest of her profile. This person is generally shy in person and will be when meeting you. They don’t know how to describe themselves very well because they don’t want to feel like they are bragging.

You are going to need to establish a good amount of comfort and rapport with these people before getting a date. A lot of times these take the longest because you have to go from email, to instant messenger, to texting, to talking on the phone, then to a date. You have to take babysteps most of the time with these people.

The key to all of these frames is recognizing which one you are talking to and to identify with it quickly! Especially in the case of someone like the Adventurous Frame, you want to demonstrate you live an active lifestyle throughout your messages to the girl. Then it is as easy as swapping some fun stories about trips you’ve taken and things you’ve done to gain enough rapport to get to a date.

You have all heard the old saying, “Opposites Attract.” Well that is true to a degree but online similarties are going to attract more girls. This is the main point to online dating amongst all the others is that they need to see you as someone like them that they can trust. In order to trust you they need to understand what you are like as a person and what your personality is like. By conveying in our messages we are adventurous like they are, or we’re tired of the games as well you quickly identify with your online target.

The other aspect of this outside of communicating it directly with your target is to setup your profile to catch the eye of the type of frame you are more interested in. In my case the profile I have on different dating sites are geared to attracting people who are adventurous and comfortable with themselves. I talk about how I’m comfortable in various situations and also how I like to stay outgoing and active. I give specific examples of things I like doing to identify with those adventurous women out there.

Next time you are online and about to message a girl read through her profile and figure out what type you are working with. What does she need to hear from you so that she knows what you are like? Can you escalate to a date fast or do you need to prepare for a long haul? What do you need to emphasize in your message to build some common ground with her quickly?

Best Wishes,

Jon

_________________
Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

Jon, thanks so much for your excellent Common Frames article. As you're the best and most insightful online game poster on this forum, I was hoping this hugely relevant topic would get covered. It's so correct and guys need to recognise these. I totally concur with all 6 frame analysis observations and 6 more extra ones come to mind, that I wanted to ask you about.

If you have any suggestions on any witty opener/s (including a subject line to include for each one) to use for each of these particular frames listed below (except for the Age Fussy frame. There's no point in a guy calling a lady out on it, as he's very likely to get rejected. He's better off lying, if he can get away with it), I'd greatly appreciate it. I apologise for the long post, but it's easier to say it in one hit.

7]. 'Looks fussy' frame. Women (obviously and usually the more hotter ones who get message bombarded, but sometimes you also see some incredibly self deluded, very ugly and/or very overweight women acting this way) who openly say on their profile, that they're a bit picky with the looks of guys messaging them, without stating they get lots of messages, but they still come across as friendly. At the same time, there's some 'looks fussy frame' women who can come across as quite arrogant and full of themselves, as they know they're hot.

8]. 'Age fussy' frame. Women who say in their profile, don't bother contacting them if you're over 25, over 30, over 35, or over 40, or ones who say don't contact them if you're under 30 and other similar crap. In either cases, they say they'll immediately delete your message and block you, if you ignore what they've specified. Some women on POF set their profile up, so that if any guy isn't in their specified age bracket, he can't message them.

You may disagree, but my take on this, is if any such women are hot and a guy (who's outside the age bracket specified) can successfully get away with lying about his age, so he fits her requirement, he should have a go to prove to the lady, that she was so wrong (although if such a guy hits it off with her, if she agrees to meet, he'd have to fess up to her eventually). I've also noticed there's some women who often combine this with looks fussy frame (women who are fussy about both looks and age), or also ones fussy about how tall a guy is, who say don't bother messaging them if you're a guy who's not over 6 foot, as they're only into tall guys.

9]. 'Attention Whore - it's heaps of fun regularly rejecting AFC guys messaging me' frame. Women who if they're real (because most dating sites, even paying ones for guys like Match, whereas women who are on Match, mostly all have a free account and don't have to pay anything), you get the feeling from reading their profile, that they're on to mainly lap up attention from guys, play games and/or make guys jump through their hoops.

They give out the vibe from their profile, that they're mainly hiding behind their computer and aren't really meeting guys in person. In saying something in their profile, that they want AFC guys to jump through hoops for them, these type of women will sometimes reply back to a 1st message, along the lines of 'you're going to have to do a lot better than that', or 'you think that'll impress me'. It'd be great to have a subject line and message (for either the 1st or 2nd message) that'd call such women out in the 1st message in a witty way, over whether they're an AW and whether they're even meeting people in person, without being rude, highly abusive, or aggressive, as most AFC guys would.

10]. The 'I'm looking for my soulmate, because I feel my biological clock ticking' frame. This is usually for women in their early, mid or late 30s, rather than for women in their 20s. This is a hybrid – offshoot of the 4th 'Tired of Playing Games' frame you covered. I had an experience with such a lady a few months ago on POF, that was a bit frustrating. She closed her POF profile, but has a regular habit of then re-opening her profile again after a 1 – 3 month break. She came across as pretty intelligent and said in her profile she wanted to meet an authentic guy with depth, then I saw that she had also set up a profile on an adult site for a short time, before taking it down.

So it looks like she wants to get laid as well. If she came back onto POF, I wouldn't mention (if messaging her again to say hi), that I saw her short lived adult site profile and that if she wanted to get laid, she should've just said so in the first place, as it'd probably badly backfire on me. This is a tricky one, where I'd want to call her out on whether she's actually meeting actively in person (if she's seeking her soulmate), or whether she's opting mostly to hide behind her computer, but without being cocky or rude about it.

11]. The 'I'm sick of getting the same boring, badly written AFC messages from guys' frame. There's some women who actually say that in their profile, probably because they really are getting crap messages, so any tips on the type of 1st message and subject line to use for such women, would be much appreciated.

12]. The 'I'm looking for a rich guy who can regularly spoil me frame'. I see this a lot as well and it's another very tricky one, as most guys using online game aren't well off.

Is it possible to successfully sarge online without a profile photo -- YES! Is it possible without ANY photo before going offline --- very very unlikely. Though I did sarge one girl who had not posted a photo and she even suggested meeting 'blind' with no photo exchange. I sent my photo to encourage her to send hers. She never did. To cut a long story short we did meet with me not knowing what she looked like.At the 'date' she had trouble id-ing me I had little chance so was cool about it. She was about an 8, but possible the dullest girl I've ever talked to in my life!

I think the effectiveness of a profile photo is also affected by the site set up. I'll explain.

Take POF- the inbox shows Name, Subject, Date,read, Replied. You cannot quickly see what the sender looks like. You can check out the senders profile by clicking on their name and/or read the mail by clicking on that. What girls would do I do not know. Do they read the mail first then check the profile or vice versa?

As I'm in Switzerland I use Swissfriends - the inbox shows a thumbnail of the senders profile pic, if there is no profile pic then a generic male or female silhouette thumbnail is dispalayed, their username, online status and open.Click on the thumbnail to look at the profile and open to read the mail. The system does not allow subject lines. The system is a bit strange and you can see if someone has read your mail, well at least opened it, and if they have checked your profile. So in theory you can see what they do.

I think typically when a girl receives mail she will read the mail and check your profile *regardless* of photos. If a girl has lots of mails then they are likely to check mails from those displaying profile thumbnails first and if they have time to check the others.

I think if you have a proactive structure or method in place then photos in profiles are good as irrelevant. Ok you say that having a photo encourages unsolicited contacts. Yes that's good and it's nice when it happens,but think about it. If you have a method in place you'd be contacting that girl anyway. If they don't fall into your criteria it helps to refine your profile but you wouldn't take it further.

I'll finish by just adding something about online game from Style. I read that when he was doing online game he rarely posted a pic and if he did it was a caricature sketch. The method was to get the girl through personality rather than looks.

Everyone has to work with what's best for them.

Good stuff, it warrants being a sticky.

Those are good additions.Ok I'll try to be short and give my experience on some of these.

Looks fussy. They either like your looks or not. Contact them regardless.You may even be able to get away with using that Ross Jeffries line about genetic perfection.

Age fussy. Don't lie about your age. You can only stretch the truth so far. And lies have a nasty habit of re-bounding. It's not good long term. I lied about my age once and didn't feel comfortable with it. I trimmed 4 years off my real age of 44.It was so lame. I don't see any problem gaming younger girls or women whatever your age. Again they'll be interested or not.

Attention whore. Seriously just neg them big time! If they are true attention seekers well it may put them in their place and you'll never hear from them again anyway. I had one lady reply to my original mail to her, where I said I did not want to do 'email tennis'. In her reply she said she wanted to know 100 things about me and I should send her one fact at a time. I sent her a mail saying 3 mails and no more.Never heard from her again...no surprise

The soulmate searcher. I think this is the toughest as well. I genuinely believe that women believing in a soulmate, a one true love are fucked-up in the head.Especially if they are older than 25.I know that's harsh words. Just game them anyway on the basis that a lot of women don't know what they want.

I'm bored/men are boring. I have been gaming one girl online quite a bit and she falls into this category. My approach so far. I exaggerated a criticism of my standard opening email. She guessed it was generic and asked if I sent this to 50 women. I replied that I'd sent it to 500 women and gave her a slightly exaggerated account of the replies. I said that I was a shallow male only interested in a girls looks so she'd better send me a photo! She sent 2. One photo she looks about 15 as she's wearing a cap. I replied saying she looked under-age and negged her on the cap. She mentioned about guys being boring so I gave her blow by blow account of other girls I had seen recently. We arranged to meet but I couldn't make it as it clashed with another 'date' In my next mail to her I told her it clashed and I had a good time on the date and made it perfectly clear that I expect to date other women until things 'got serious'. She replied that I was a typical man and we didn't correspond further. End of story? No after a month of no communication she emailled me and we are planning to meet. So it looks like negging, cocky funny and selfish jerk like replies are the key here. I think she was fed up with all the fawning puppy dog mails from other men.

The golddigger/spoil me type.Make sure early in your communication that you make it clear you share costs and are expecting them to do the same. Preferably do this in your profile but be careful with wording as it can come across as mean. I once arranged a date with this lady. We had chatted on SPAM and done some text. I had a few doubts and when she arranged an expensive restaurant to meet at I was convinced she was a golddigger.I text her saying that I expect we will share the costs on the date. On the morning of the date I got a text from her saying I wasn't her type.

Like I said , just my experience and hopefully people can pull useful stuff from it

Greg007,

Thanks! You have some nice additions here. I agree with what you are saying although these aren't as common I do see them as well, especially #10 and #11. I really don't have any specific openers for these but just by the descriptions you gave I think people can work out what they need to do.

Jon

_________________
Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

Good Post here. I agree it can be done it just makes it difficult because of the emphasis each of the sites put on pictures. They are in the search results, top of the email messages you send to people, etc.

_________________
Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

SkyPirate,

Thank you for your insights on these other types of frames that we see online. I'm pretty much agree with everything you have up there. I personally don't deal with the Gold Diggers, and the Attention Whores anymore. I can meet girls online easy enough that I'm not going to put myself through dealing with that crap on a daily basis.

As far as the girl who says she's just looking for the one, who can also just be really picky. The girl is going to realize sooner or later she has to start being flexible and no one is going to be 100% what she wants based on a profile. Also, this girls still has basic needs of being wanted and loved. Eventually, she is going to go after a guy again. If you can demonstrate strong qualities with her (DHV) then its usually enough to get her offline and on a date with you.

Age & Looks Fussy girls I think its mostly just a smoke screen. I think of this more like a shit test than anything. The girl is trying to screen out some guys based on looks and or age. Now we all know that if the right guy walked into her life regardless of age or looks she'd be on him! The big thing is not to get caught up in this and just message them anyways. Like you said don't lie about anything but just dont bring it up either if you fall outside of their guidelines.

Awesome stuff guys. I really appreciate you all commenting on these. I think understanding these frames that you see online is the core to meeting people easier. Sure its good to know other things about how to escalate the conversations to get a # or a date, but ultimately it falls down to how to talk to these frames.

~Jon

_________________
Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

Hi Jsmooth.

I opened a girl with a direct opener "I would have poke you, but that be a bit long. hello, i saw your profile and thought, goddamn, shes gorgeous! so i had to send you a message or id be kicking myself for the next 5 minutes." ,

and she came back with " Well, thanks for including me to the list of girls you've probably sent that message to. "

How do I reply ?

I'm not really sure but I think I read somewhere that you're supposed to agree to it or something...for eg. " Ya, but you're the one Im talkin to right now" ... something like that.