Jon,
I was reading Scot McKay write, that he reckons the idea of sending a lady a 2nd EMail on an online dating site (where a guy's first one that he sent, wasn't replied to) is underestimated too much by guys. I'm deeply sceptical about this, but may test this out over a few months. If a hot looking lady is being message bombarded and feels no attraction whatsoever to a guy who's messaged her
(after reading his first message and seeing his photos), her non response is the answer.

Scott might have a point, when with online, the timing of a guy's first message is sometimes wrong for the a lady to answer, plus guys have to contend with huge numbers of flakes, women who like hiding behind their computer and aren't active in meeting in person, attention whores with no serious interest in really meeting in person and women who get message bombarded, so are more discerning in who they reply back to. It's also possible with a 2nd message sent maybe 2–12 weeks after the first one, the timing of its receipt may suit a lady better and she'll reply positively or negatively.

As most guys badly screw up a 2nd message with something overly cocky and funny and overly desperate (or a combo of both), can you please suggest (with subject line as well), what you'd use for sending a 2nd EMail (if you had to use one and/or if you've ever used any) and what you'd say in it.

Please also state whether in such a 2nd message, you'd raise (or wouldn't raise) the fact you had sent an initial message that wasn't replied to and that it was rude for the lady not to reply back. This is something else many guys screw up with their 2nd message (insulting a lady for not answering initially and/or trying to be too cocky). As online is such a numbers game, it'd definitely be foolish for a guy to send a 3rd message. Thanks for your time.

Not a problem Brew.
You're right she's interested but she didn't write much back. She could have been simply busy at the time she checked her email all the way to just not wanting to put in much effort. The only thing you can really do is change subjects and try to hook her again with a new message.
If you need anything else Brew don't hesitate to message me.

_________________
Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

I agree that timing is everything with online stuff. Some girls don't log in that often to check their messages as well. A well timed second message can be very helpful. It also disginuishes you from the guys who send her one message and give up. Persistence and Patience do account for something believe it or not. I would have to agree with Scot McKay's assessment that a 2nd message could definitely improve your results.
I don't just used canned messages believe it or not to girls I have met online. To know what I'd send in the 2nd message I'd have to look at what I first sent her and try to figure out why it didn't hook her based on her profile. If I was straight forward and direct in my first message, I might be playful and indirect in my second. Some people respond to things differently so I'd try to switch gears and use a different approach if that makes sense. Basically, I am adjusting my frame in an attempt to get my foot in the door.
NEGATIVE, don't do that! BTW, I'm not calling you out I'm mostly answering this for the rest of the guys that don't know...

Look you get more flies with honey than you do kaka so this isn't going to work. Here is the reason why. Some girl sends you a message online. She's fairly cute and you are somewhat interested but dont reply because it's online and the grass could be greener with someone else. Now it's a week later and you get a send message from her. You start to give her a second look at her profile. BUT to make things more awkward from her original message that you didn't reply to she's calling you out for not emailing her. You don't know her, you don't owe her anything, if she's being like this now what would she be like if you were in a relationship with her. "YOU DIDN'T RETURN MY TEXT, WHAT WERE YOU DOING?!?"

I think I'm going a little overboard here but you see my point, and girls do think about this stuff. These emails are our first impressions that this person has of us. We're not going to win any hearts and minds by calling her out.
Agreed! Glad I can help.

_________________
Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

Jon, thanks so much. Could you please suggest for a 2nd EMail, what you'd actually use, including subject line. For my first message, I'd mostly probably use a watered down playful and indirect style message, rather than qualifying
myself in an AFC way and/or or asking a lady to do the same, that most guys do.

I'm currently on a break from online game, but am redoing it for when I get back into it. Can you please critique including the section below in the end of one's profile, in terms of whether it's good and can be made even wittier, or should be all deleted. It come could across as very arrogant with the wrong wording used, but I think it's sympathetic and humble in showing an awareness of the type of crap messages women receive.

'Were I to message you, I definitely wouldn't start by saying 'hey', 'hey baby', 'hi gorgeous', 'hi how is everything ?', 'what's up ?', 'you're so incredibly hot', 'I was browsing numerous profiles and couldn't help but choose yours', 'let's meet ASAP, here's my number', write a poem or anything else that's as equally incredibly imaginative'.

hey j smooth

so i sent a msg to some hb on facebook , a friend of her is a friend of mine (they study together) and i sent her a msg saying some afc thing like:
hey i saw ur profile pic and decided to send a msg
anyway then i started experimenting something, i did the cube on her and she liked it and said it's very very close to the truth, then i told her good, now i know you better.She then just did a smile ( ). then i was kinda stuck, so i said: "You now have my permission to add me, your'e ok "
Then she didnt answer me ...
):

JSmooth...

Been talking with a really hot chick online - and pretty quickly I we exchanged telephone numbers. I called her - she answered but couldn't talk called me back and i was in a meeting.

We kind of work different hours and so I said, "we could always just skip to the meet and greet - I'm much more effusive in person or tomorrow more tag"

That was sent around 10pm - the next day I called her she didn't answer I can't remember if I left a message and texted her about two hours later saying "soooo, you must be working again tonight, but I'm not going to bed so early "

She wrote back that she was actually on the way to home depot, and I said "well if the urge overtakes you, I'm free"

She called about 10 minutes later and we talked for about 5 minutes before she said that she had to call her brother, and she'd call me back. She didn't but she was yawning and one reason she might not have answered my invite is cause she was working late the night before.

Sat morning, she texted me to tell me that her sister had gotten engaged and she was going to be the maid of honor. I told her "That is awesome!!! She must be on cloud nine! And I know you slept well judging by all the yawning last night" She responded "She's 22 and going to get married before me lol" She's 34. I wanted to make a smart comment about how I'd marry her but didn't know how to say it without sounding weird so I've just left it there.

So, there is obviously some interest, she's keeping up with the communication, and the fact she shared her good news with me so early in the morning even though I barely know her seems a little significant, but she did ignore my previous invite. And we've only been exchanging texts, calls for a week so nothing is urgent.

But, how can I say to this girl "texts and calls are fun for a while, but I'll lose interest if we don't meet up soon - I'm not looking for new text friends."

On her profile she says "I find it super sexy when a guy speaks his mind, is dependable."

KL70, I already answered this in the post above, it depends on the exact message going out the first time.
I believe that you are asking a lot of someone who knows nothing about you. Why should this girl who does not know you go somewhere to meet a stranger she knows nothing about and hang out with him. Dude, people have been killed that way from meeting people online. In addition, why would a girl that values herself call that person. You are missing the elements of building attraction and creating a comfortable SPAM for the girl you are interested in.

Jon

Alisterio,

I have to say that this girl is definitely comfortable with you and interested in you. Based on what you have told me these elements are obviously there. Mostly, it just sounds like some bad situational timing that has kept you from meeting thus far. This can and does happen to everyone.

I know what you mean with "Texts and calls are fun for a while, but I'll lose interest if we don't meet up soon - I'm not looking for new text friends." Sometimes it takes a bit for a girl to get comfortable. I wouldn't go this direct just yet regardless of what her profile says. Most of us like honesty but no one ever says what you are thinking about a person to a "T" so to speak. This is one of those times to hold on to your thoughts for a moment.

Saying exactly that puts her in a corner to where she either chooses to be with you or chooses to be single. Here is the problem with choices like these. People choose to the path of least resistence. Such as it's easier to not approach than go open a girl...it's easier for her to continue being single than it is for her to say YES to you in some situations.

Anyways, with all that being said...I would make a really strong attempt to ask her out again. I would make it obvious that it is important to you that she comes. Find some kind of local event going on. I don't know about your city but in most there is some festival or something happening. Find one. Something like, "I have this great idea for our first meeting next weekend. I really want to go to this .... festival and it'd be awesome if you would go with me so we can get to know each other."

If she says no to that...I'd text/talk to her some more on the phone to build a little more rapport and then I might have that talk with her putting her in or out because you don't want it to drag out too much.

Jon

Hey JSmooth I have a few questions/walk through advice as where to take this. I know what I should do, one is question is how do i get it to where i need to go.

advice on anything/everything would be great.

here is the conversation viz facebook wall posts we've been having. keep in mind that i haven't spoke to this girl since last spring when she was in the same Italian class as me. she posted on my wall about a week and a half ago and a convo has been flowing since.

HER: I MISS ITALIAN CLASS

ME: Yea me2. especially you giving me the eyes from across the room every class lol
October 28 at 2:55am · Comment · Like

HER: HAHAHAHAHAHA you wish!
October 28 at 9:16am · Comment · Like

ME: haha i just call it like I see it. so what have you been up to, besides wasting away, away from you lol.
October 28 at 12:58pm · Comment · Like

HER: hahaha well i happen to agree that the phillies phans are phucking phaggots. so how about thatttttt haha. umm i havent been up to too much! been really hectic with school and work. how are you doinggg?
October 28 at 5:51pm · Comment · Like

ME: well you know, the usual stuff, dodging bullets, thumb wrestling, saving the word lol .

we havent talked since we gave del prete the starbucks card, how was your summer? if it's about as interesting as what you've been up to recently than i can say that my summer beat yours up lol.
October 29 at 2:57pm · Comment · Like

HER: hahahaha hmm summer was good! went down the shore a bunch of times, i miss it lol this weather is such a tease because its started to get warm but i remember last halloween was warm too. i didnt do much this summer hahaha so yes your summer probably beat mine up... tell me about it
October 29 at 4:49pm · Comment · Like

ME: ok (HB), I'll "tell you about it" lol.

well like you went dts early like mayish-june. in july was in florida for two weeks, sarasota and st. augustine. so nice but really really hot. i've been bartending for almost a year now so I can't ever say i hate going to work lol. and volunteer at the b...Read More
Fri at 12:03pm · Comment · Like

HER: haha thats awesome! a full paragraph of your summer! 3-3 thats really good!!! i want to go somewhere fun for christmas break but i am definitely just going to sit home and work. seriously, ive never been anywhere.. i need to start spontaneously traveling.
Fri at 7:51pm · Comment · Like

ME: lol aww. spontaneous travel is the best kind. speaking of, my best friend just went to south america for 6 months plus lol. i could have gone but i too much goin on here at the moment lol.

u and me cruise over winter break. hows that for spontaneous haha.

happy halloween-what are u being?
Sat at 4:35pm via Facebook for iPhone · Comment · Like

HER: hahahaha IVE NEVER BEEN ON A CRUISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! andddd i was a pumpkin last nighttt and at work today, a giants player. tonight? im not sure, probably a pumpkin again

what are you!?
Sat at 4:57pm · Comment · Like

ME: cruises are A LOT of fun, i was on one a few years ago down in mexico to the bahamas and next summer I'm going on one around italy and the greek islands i can't wait lol. but what I'm really looking forward to this winter is snowboarding, i went at least 2 twice a week last winter. that's my ...Read More
Yesterday at 1:58pm · Comment · Like

HER: MARIOOOOOOOOOOOOO

oh and my giants attire was for work, and yes it would have been 90% better if i had shoulder pads butttt i made do what with i had haha
Yesterday at 8:07pm · Comment · Like

ok now i'm thinking i should i should try to move this offline for a day 2. convo is going nice but i'm getting that feeling it's coming to that point i should ask her for her number so we could get together sometime.

any pointers on what to use. i was thinking something along the lines we've been having a nice conversation lets exchange numbers and get together sometime. idk. help on how to take this to where i need would be GREATLY appreciated.

Thanks JSmooth

Heya man,

I don't really know where to start with this, so I'll try my best to explain the situation and make it easier for you.

So, 2 months ago, this girl actually blown me off, after 8 months of unclear relationship (I've confessed that I like her, and she accepts it, but not until the point that we're in a BF/GF relationship), and it seems to be game over. I've posted about this girl in your thread long long time ago, and u've told me it's a dead set. But... things happened...

2 weeks after u answered my question, and I've started to forgot about her.. she reinitiated contact. So, I called her and we had a good chat and I prayed for her (prayed!! haha..) and then she departed to the capital city to continue her study in the college.

Since then, we had a very few chat, but each chat is the best conversations that I could ever had with her.. until... 3 days before my birthday, she initiated contact and wrote on my Facebook wall.

"oy, mr charming, thursday is ur birthday, huh? I'm going back to Bali around that time, so please invite me to your birthday party ya? hahaha..xp". There's more, but not so necessary as this sentence. So I replied to her number, and she was like. "Uummmm,why don't u reply in Facebook? u're so mean!" (I was thinking, why should I write in Facebook, it's visible to public, if she wants it to be seen, it should has different meaning. Then I replied with something simple, tease her to wear something cute and I off to sleep. At 0.03, she texted me "Happy bday,hehe"
I thanked her the next morning and she didn't reply. Who cares??

I took some time the next day to reply to her wall comment, and she asked me back "when's ur piano concert?". I said december, and she said "december?? I'm coming back again to Bali in December, please invite me to ur concert, I want to see ur performing in the front of millions of people, haha". I think "hey it's on again?"

So since that day, I had a few text banter with her, I asked her good questions, but she doesn't respond to that part of my text (following some basics of your text game format), and she responded with something like "yeah, u have ur birthday and u haven't treated me anything", I replied again but she doesn't respond. The another day, I told her that I was in a cool place and she texted me back with something "why don't u take me out with you? booo, u're such a mean guy, haha" and not so much.

I catch this big IOI and asked her out the next day. She said okay, but a few hours later she said that she's really really sorry that she forgot that she has to prepare for her exam and she has some course to take, she was so disappointed, and she jokingly told me, "why don't u tell me earlier?? I'm a busy girl -_-||"

I just think "this is getting cheesy" so I called her and we had normal chat, even talked about kissing a little, and she's the first one to mention! But it wasn't that great and I could sense a little bit boredom in her voice, and my credit ran out and the connection was lost. I tried to push the interaction further with text, but I don't get a reply.

The next day, I tried to anchor the situation with good morning greeting, gave her a "hug" and wish her to have a great day". Still no reply...

This what confuses me, the next day, she told my friend that she changed her number, and gave her new number, but she didn't give me! It's her final day in my town before she got back to her study, so I just asked her number from my friend and texted her to hang out, to the old and new numb, with no reponses at all!!

For background info, she's a busy, quite nervous girl, and even in her college, she doesn't go out a lot, and my friend also have a few text banter with her, but even she doesn't always get a reply, so it's not only me. We had met twice before, henceforth it's not a full flake.

Then few things happened 2 weeks later...

I added her friend on Facebook, her friend in the new city she's living. We had a chat, a real great one and I told her jokingly "Tell *HB* that she should be more confident in front of a man. Apparently, this creates problem in later time. Few days later, my sis was OL on the MSN using my account, she greeted the HB, and the HB asked my sis "where's ur bro? I have some questions for him". Apparently, she's mad at the joke.

Now, most of the guys will say she's being oversensitive, which is actually her nature.. She's mad and I just told her that I might made some mistake and promised her to talk about this some other time, when she's calmer. I calibrated and I forgot that she's sensitive and that kind of joke hurted her self esteem. She's a closed girl, never trusted private things such as her relationships or insecurities to other people except her sisters. Apparently, I got some special part in her life.

I apologized and tried to contact her 1 week later, with no response. I tried next week, still no response. It's been 1 month now, and I haven't contacted her since. But based on her MSN status(es) such as "feeling blue",etc. She might be thinking about it. What's ur thoughts on this? What should I do now? Shall I try again? And how you do this in a non-needy way?

Thanks so much for everything, man

Best pal,
Steven

_________________
"Live every moment of your life as it is the best"

"Grief is the price we pay for love"

You are both definitely furthering the conversation just fine. You obviously have a good amount of rapport with this girl. I'd say by her responses that there is some interest there for you. I would most definitely ask her for her number and then move this to a date.

You're on the right track man. I can give you some pointer but to be honest regardless of what you say the ground work is there for you to get the #. I just like to follow the old "KISS" method "Keep it simple stupid."

Thanks DesertFox565...
MAYBE...
Girls like this just irritate the heck out of me.
Alright...that sucks.
I feel the tension building as I read this...
Steven,

First I want to say that I admire your persistence but my advice really hasn't changed man leave this girl alone!

Let's start with this... Do you really want to be in a committed relationship or any kind of a relationship with a girl that constantly is going to flake on you? I think your time is worth more than that personally. If she can't see that you are a good guy and should be with you then that's her loss dude.

Its great that she contacted you and you were talking for a while. It sounds like she was just trying to be friends with you. When you persued her she backed off and made excuses as to why she couldn't do things with you. Then she even changed her # and didn't tell you about it. Not to mention she hasn't been responding back to you anymore.

You said it's been a month now with no contact. Give it up man, there is just no point in beating yourself up trying to figure out how to get this one girl. They call it one-itis for a reason and this is a shining example. Take a break from girls for a while give yourself time to get over this girl...and then come back at it with a better perspective.

RANT OVER...putting my soapbox away.

I truly hope it helps,

Jon

Hey Jon,

Could use some re-assurance here on my latest situation...ill try to keep it short and concise...So I was at a Halloween party last week...the link is below if you feel like reading my FR...

fr18-halloween-partywtf-moment-vt54945.html

Anyways, the girl I was gaming there was too young, but since I acted like the life of the party I seem to have peaked the interest of her older sister, who is HB7 in the FR. I added her on facebook after the party. I wasnt gonna pursue her cuz I thought my buddy was trying to sarge her, but this HB7 rejected him. So shes fair game now. Anyways, I noticed she tagged me in a bunch of photos on FBook, and "liked" my profile pic. So I figured I should message her to gauge her interest. She responded really well to me opening her on the Fbook chat. I TC'ed the convo because I only had few mins. But she seemed interested during our quick chat, and she even #-Closed me. So clearly shes interested.

So my question is, what should my next move be? Try to build comfort over Fbook chat or take a step up and start texting? Personally I would feel more comfortable in the Fbook chat. But I feel she has shown interest, and maybe I should too? Whatever advice you could give me I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks,
Fogell

Steven,

First I want to say that I admire your persistence but my advice really hasn't changed man leave this girl alone!

Let's start with this... Do you really want to be in a committed relationship or any kind of a relationship with a girl that constantly is going to flake on you? I think your time is worth more than that personally. If she can't see that you are a good guy and should be with you then that's her loss dude.

Its great that she contacted you and you were talking for a while. It sounds like she was just trying to be friends with you. When you persued her she backed off and made excuses as to why she couldn't do things with you. Then she even changed her # and didn't tell you about it. Not to mention she hasn't been responding back to you anymore.

You said it's been a month now with no contact. Give it up man, there is just no point in beating yourself up trying to figure out how to get this one girl. They call it one-itis for a reason and this is a shining example. Take a break from girls for a while give yourself time to get over this girl...and then come back at it with a better perspective.

RANT OVER...putting my soapbox away.

I truly hope it helps,

Jon[/quote]

Hey Jon! That was surely fast!! I can't be grateful enough of the fact that u replied so fast, despite of millions questions that u got.. (Ok, that might be overexaggerated, because the forum isn't exploded yet)

Now I know this might makes you exhales deeply until the point you also fart (hope that it doesn't really happen ), but I decide to give it one last shot... and this one is for REAL. Let me do this one more time, take it as my token of appreciation for you.

It's been a week since I tried to reinitiate contact with no response, I tried to open with humor and comfort building stuff with no response. It has happened to our relationship before, and I'm thinking about doing the same thing for one more time..

It was Ross Jeffries' line with my own personal modification

The line's like this:

Hey Ella, it's Steven. I'm here just to drop a quick note. Does communicating with me is something you realize that YOU WANT TO DO? You know, if we don't it will be a loss for me, but maybe what you haven't yet realized is, it will be a loss for you as well..maybe in ways you haven't yet considered. And losing is something no one wants to do. What do you think?

Just like that.

Thanks man

Best pal,
Steven

_________________
"Live every moment of your life as it is the best"

"Grief is the price we pay for love"

Hi Fogell,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you guys I've been pretty busy as of late.

Sounds like it was a good party and a good time. Outside of the party let's just look at some of the IOIs back and forth since the party.

You: (Added her to FB)
Her: (Tagged photos, and marked some as "Like")
You: (Opened her on FB Chat)
Her: (# Closed you)

You have a good flow of indicators going back and forth. She pretty well knows that you are interested, and we definitely know that she is interested by her actions as well. I am glad this isn't a question of whether or not she's attracted it's just a question of what the next step should be.

If we think about what's more personable it kind of flows like this from least personal to more personal. ONLINE - TEXT - PHONE CALL - IN PERSON

To continue to show interest and take this to the next step yes I would start by slowly texting her some at this point and work to gain some comfort or rapport with her. Just keep in mind you don't want this to go on too long. We want to continue to escalate her to calling her, and eventually to a date.

Awesome work man!

Jon