Walt,

First of all, don't really think of this as a "shit test" because that implies she is getting you to jump through hoops to establish dominance and that sort of thing. She could just truly be curious as to why you messaged her or if you are like the 100 other idiots that just send form emails.

When you are sending basic copy and paste messages women know it. They see a lot of these and it is pretty obvious unless you are just really smooth with your message. So to see if a guy is legit or not she does this as a bit of qualification to see if you are interested or are just messaging 50 people a day.

I would dig into her profile some, pull out a few things you like, and yes tell her you are attracted to her. As a PURE EXAMPLE

"Well to be honest I found you attractive but it's more than that. I really liked it when you said in your profile that you were outgoing because that is totally my personality, not to mention you seem like the type of person who knows how to have FUN! I just wanted to get to know you better and see what happens.

Granted there is only so much you can tell from a profile to be honest I do better in person. Have you ever just sat down in front of someone and known pretty fast if you like them or not? What did you do for the 4th of July holiday?"

I'll break this down and make this simple. I am giving a statement of interest to show we're legitimate. Then I call out a few things in her profile to answer her question or qualification. After that showing that I want to get to know her better and continue things.

I love doing the whole there is only so much you can tell from a profile and talking online thing. The reason is because #1 it's soo true, and 2nd because it leads you into a date. You are setting up the fact that eventually you are going to need to meet her in person to figure things out. Then of course we ask a question so that we can further the conversation.

Hope this helps out,

Jon

_________________
Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

Awesome response Jon and so fast! Thanks

I love how you've managed to cover nearly everything I actually wanted to say. I'm still really trying to get a feel for online what you can say and how it comes across. I 100% agree about instantly knowing when you see / around them. Online wastes a lot of time in that respect you can build up quite a rapport, but when you finally meet you immediately know its not right. Moving to date asap is the right path.

I send out the email as I don't have the time around my job and social life to sit down and tailor some messages that might never get a reply or even be seen. If they hit me back I know its worthwhile spending the time to reply. I'm quite open as to what I'm looking for so it allows me to chat to lots of people fairly quickly and if they are warm to me and vice versa. As said before I can't tell much about them over the i-net and would much rather get in front of them.

Walt,

You are welcome! I am pretty good at reading people online and getting a feel for their personality (cold read) and being able to build a profile for the way that person is physcologically and how they will act most of the time. I guess it's from the past 9 years meeting people from online.

I can understand the reason for sending a basic message to them and waiting for a response. You just have to be careful being too generic with your message or women won't respond to them. I talk to a lot of girls and I ask them about other guys and what they message them. Girls are pretty intuitive and know when its a generic and most don't reply to them. If you can take your time and send less messages but send composed thought out ones.

Even though I can read people pretty well online I can still tell more about sitting in front of them for about 10-15 minutes than I can talking to them for hours online. There is just so much to be said for body language. I mean 60% of what you are telling people comes from your body language, and another 30% comes from your voice tone, inflection, verbal pace, etc. 90% is a huge number and we haven't even talked about the words themselves. So I guess science would agree with us too!

Glad it helped,

Jon

_________________
Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

hey Jon can u help me with 2 thing i need to improve? 1st one is a girl i used to go out with few times but nothing actualy happened cuz i back then i was fucking pussy, so 1 week ago i called her to go out but she cancelled the stuff cuz she had to go to work bla bla which the other day she told me she was mistaken and if we could go out now but i was actualy busy and i told her to call me when she can, but she responded " call me some time i may be free" I was acting like busy and just told her bye. SO now i need to ger her attention on me, i can pm her on msn but her responses are like 5 mins each so we cant chat at all or atleast i cant get her attention on me like i used to do before. I asked her to go out to many times and she is always saying she is busy or making me to travel like 30km ( i wont do that i showed her that she cant play with me, i make her chase me but she does not ) SO now i need some how to get her attracted she pm me on msn and somehow i keep the attention for 30 min on me and i can get her to go out with me. How should i do that? i was thinkin about putting some interesting pic on my avatar but still she is pming 5 mins each ( doing on purpose i think, she wants me to chase her).

Other situation that im right now. So on youtube i posted comment on 1 video "woman what do u expect". So 1 girl pmed me this
Her : So what if she is a woman, i donno how limited your thinkin must be if u separate the people of women and men and saying one are more stupid then other. Im sorry if im mistaken please correct me but thats my impression. ( i was shocked, i tought she is crazy ass bitch and she responds to the rest of the comments like that which were the same, but she actualy responded only to me so ...)
Me: LoL u totaly shot me. It was a joke and also im very bad. And believe me my thinking is not limited. I dont have in mind to curse at women/men. Btw if u start responding to all other comments like that u wont get anywhere.
Her: eeeee im ashamed Im so sorry about the comment, but there are really people who do that separation of people which is stupid and i though u r one of them. Im sorry one more time
And i know i wont get anywhere but im bored here and i got little angry. And tx for the video it didnt surprise me but thank you alot for showing it to me ( i sended her also a video about something that is happening in our country cuz her profile on utube showed me she has some interests like me) and also salutes and smiles, i can be good too
Me: U do that to all unknown people? first you yell then u smile at them ?
Her: No, it depends on the situation, that was yours
Me: Looks like im from the lucky ones. Then why u respond to me at 3 am and looks like u smoke weed as well. ( her avatar shows a girl smoking weedand here im trying to do cocky and funny donno)
Her: you are defenetly from the lucky ones, lots of people would be jelous of u about that kind of yellings from unknown people And that i pmed u at 3 am? Do you notice everything? I never look at what time pm do pm me only if it is something im interested in. Usualy go to bed very late and about the weed wtf how did u come up with that stuff i dont have anything in my profile that can tell u this, looks like u r the one smoking that what i can tell from ur avatar. ( marijuana mcdonalds)
Me: i feel defenetly lucky for that i get out with only yelling. And bout the weed where should i start of? Ur nick name and ur avatar and about my avatar its from the times when i used to smoke and there is no one to change it.
her: ( she is explaining about her avatar and nickname that it has nothing to do with it bla bla and that the avatar is showing lazyness and some other stuff like that cuz she is on that wave right now blabla and says she also loves green color and tells me "looks like ur ex smoker" )
Me: ( DHV about that i need weed anymore to have fun and asking her if she is sure that she is not a unrealized smoker with all that green around and warning her about that lazyness can get u in trouble )
Her: (acting mysterous about if she is realy smoking weed) and i will see the result of my lazyness in few days ( here she has exams that im suppose to have the next years yes she is 1 year older but she does not know that )
Me: Exams ? Cool, i have a friend that took his exams stoned and passed, maybe if u were stoned u might have some chances...
Her: ( explaing its she already passed the exam im talkin about but not stoned and now she has another exam but she didnt have time to study and she is considering my friends idea about taking the exam stoned, so atleast she has some inspiration )
Me : I see how busy you are, pming unknown people and yelling at them and not sleeping all night
AFter 3 days she response with that ( she didnt log during those 3 days)
Her: i never said im busy, i even have lots of free time and i will do something about it i dont like it that way and yes sometimes yelling at unknown people is making me feel better :DD
So basicly now i have no idea how to get those 2 attraction me... any help and sorry for the long post, im just back from work and dont have any plans for the night so im spending time here )))))))) and btw i dont know what city is she from but there are big chances for her to be from my city
Ok Basicly how can i keep the attention on me so i can ask her out? Her responses are like 5 mins each on msn messenger

@fatalclaw: try formatting your message to J can read it a little better. I tried to and basically it's a clusterf#@ck of text that is incredibly difficult to read. Just saying bro - gl with whatever it is your trying to do, cause I don't know


Hey J,

This ain't an online question, but you are just so good, I thought I'd ask you - tell me I'm breaking forum rule and there's no hard feelings

-----------------------
Went up to a HB7 the other night at a bar - she was all alone, I had a great opening line cause I knew she was young. I'm 38 but most people put me at around 30-32.

We got along great, I was charming, funny, etc...she turned out to be 21.

Anyway, I leave, give her my number and tell her "if you feel like I'm not one of the coolest guys you've met in quite a while, don't call."

She texted me that night, texted me all day long on the 4th and when I proposed I meet up with her (she said she got into a fight with her best friend and was "all alone at home - I thought it was an invite in disguise) she said, not tonight, but how about tomorrow? I said that sounded good, I'm a teacher and I'm off for the summer.

She texted the next night and said: "I can't hang tonight. I am sorry. maybe tues. I have an early class tomorrow and a test I forgot about. sorry."

I responded, "No worries - school is very important. "

It's tuesday night, she didn't contact me - any ideas on what to do next?

I don't want to scare away a beautiful baby by coming at her too soon, especially since she's only 21 and I'm sure her friends are saying I'm too old for her. For an intellectual relationship, they're kind of right but it's that I'm too old for her

The attraction was definitely high on Friday night...obviously...but maybe she's starting to think "he's too old for me" or who knows...

Ok heres my situation.. I opened a girl on okcupid for the heck of it. Shes a HB7 and in her fist couple of messages seemed to keep coming back to talking about how she was tired of the BS involed in dating and had a hard time keeping guys around because she “doesn’t put up with guys shit and can be a total bitch”. I kinda think its just a bitch shield. So anyways I send her a message back saying that we could never work out because neither of us would take each others shit.. yadda yadda you know the drill. Then I send her a text wink (or whatever you call them) at the end of the message.

I checked today and I get a message back from her saying “ lol you will take it and like it!!!” It looks to me like she bit on it and seems at least a little interested. My only question is where to go from here? Not verbatim of course because I want to sound like me. Im just looking for some direction. Im such a noob at this I cant even be called a recovering AFC yet..lol thanks!!!!

Fatalclaw,

The thing is when we interrupt the flow of things online it is really hard to recover. I can't really explain why this is but I have falled a victim to this several times as well. You just have to strike while the iron is hot! The best thing you can do is get her phone number and not go back to IM. Simply send her a message, "I have been busy lately but I want to stay in touch with you my number is 555-1234. Send me back your number so I'll know it's you." We are giving her our number to show some trust and then of course asking for hers. This is about the best move we can make to go forward and get her talking on the phone our through text.
Dude, I am sorry I really don't have a method for a youtube / MSN Messenger contact method. You don't know the girls name or even if she is in your local area. I think that would be the next thing you should establish with her before persuing something. Not to mention you don't even know what this girls looks like do you? Perhaps get her Facebook or MySpace so you can get a better idea about her. That should be pretty easy.

From there you go about online like normal. Establish and build rapport with her to establish a connection between you two where she's comfortable with who you are. Also, when you can be playful, tease, spice in some attraction. After that it shouldn't be too hard to ask for her # to text and then from there a date.

Hope this helps, I don't have a great explanation for that type of meeting.

Jon

_________________
Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

Alisterio,

You are breaking a rule and I am sick of this crap on my post and... How can I help?
That's a good line I'm going to have to spice that in, pure cocky funny!
Well Alisterio, I have to say that I think you have played your cards right in your responses to her not being available for one reason or another but now we have this problem. I hate it when things go to plan and then drop off like this. This puts us in a really tough position because we've asked her out a couple of times already.

You said the attraction was definitely high and obviously she messaged you a lot on the 4th. How long were you able to speak with her the night you met? What types of stuff have you discussed via text on the 4th? I guess I'm trying to figure out if you've just had basic chit chat conversation. OR if you have opened up back and forth and really shown yourselves (comfort).

If there is not much comfort then she thinks to herself, "This guy is cute and fun to talk to, BUT he wants to go out and I don't know that much about him." Then she sees herself on past dates with awkward silences searching for stuff to talk about over coffee and dinner. That makes it hard to get her out unless we can establish some rapport via text or phone calls.

Maybe this is not the case and you have a good bit of rapport built with her. You can always use this as your one last chance at this type of thing. First of all, you are going to take all the blame for last night not happening! You are also going to take all the pressure off the situation of talking to you. Right now she knows she missed a date and is dreading that awkward message about it, and having to explain herself. I am sure you would agree.

We diffuse the situation completely. Text or call her and Say, "Oh my god, I am so sorry about last night. I got busy with some friends having a good time and it hit me this morning what I did. Are you willing to take rain check?"

I use to love doing this with sales appointments that didn't show. It worked really well because it takes the tension off the situation and makes it easier to agree to another date. For those reading this it isn't about being alpha or AFC this is about getting the damn girl. LOL. Anyways, I think you can see where I'm going with this.

GOOD LUCK!

Jon

_________________
Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

Dwracing39,

I hear you, and by the way good calibration on saying that to her. Yeah, I know it's a Mystery favorite canned line but honestly I might have used the same thing in this situation. She is trying to DHV herself in a way to you by saying how she's tired of the BS and can be a bitch. So your play to show I'm not going to take your shit either is perfect. It actually builds a bit of rapport too because she sees you are like her in that way.

Anyways, so where to go from here? I'll give you a basic example and you can reword it from there if it doesn't fit you.

I don't have to take anything missy! Its nice to meet someone with some personality for a change. I get tired of the girls that don't speak up for themselves but I get the feeling you don't have that problem. Tell me what is one of the more interesting things about you someone would never guess?

#1 We are again showing we are like her and we appreciate her bevahiour. We are also being playful at first for attraction. Then I am going into a bit of qualification but it doubles as building rapport. When she responds with this then you can give out some interesting fact about you most people don't know.

Now that you understand what I'm going for you can reword it as you want. And good luck with this girl she sounds fun!

Jon

_________________
Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

Jsmooth.. Thanks!!! That soooo worked. Well so far anyways. I replied as you suggested but just changed a couple of words around. I expected a playful reply from her like I had been getting but man was I in for a surprise. I got on and checked at lunch while I was checking my email and heres is what was waiting on me. Ill list my message first.

ME--- I don't have to take anything missy! lol Its nice to meet someone with some personality for a change. I get tired of the girls that don't take up for themselves and just roll over for people but I get the feeling you don't have that problem. Tell me what is one of the more interesting things about you someone would never guess? If its interesting enough I might even tell something about myself..

HER---- Im the type of girl that wont take no for an answer! Hmmm something no one would ever guess....Im the biggest horn dog perverted bitch you'll ever meet I think about sex way more than I should and if I dont get it im a bitch.....hmmm i need sex lol

Ok this totally caught me by surprise (but its looking like a good surprise!!) and im not sure how to react. Like I said before im not looking for verbatim, although what you suggested before seemed pretty much exactly how I would’ve said such a thing so I went with it. I know I should make a play on her bringing up sex but im just not sure what angle to take. This girl seems cool and im just having fun with it. I just messaged a couple of girls on a whim to keep from getting oneitis over the girl im really working on when this one seemd to hook. Seems to be turning out ok so far though. Like I said im really trying to keep from being walked step by step through it. The last message was just not where I thought the convo was heading so soon. lol Thanks again!!

dwracing39,

I like this girl! This girl is very sexual, now here is the thing. If we go uber sexual she'll go with it but we don't want to do that until we have her in person, for obvious reasons. We don't want to be her online toy, we want to be her in person toy. LOL.

Glad you messaged a few other girls to keep your mind focused, and detatch from the outcome.

Let's look at what we know and profile this girl a bit.

+She independent
+Dominate
+Speakers her mind
+Doesn't take shit
+Very Sexual
+Confident

You have the type of girl we can escalate very quickly and get her in person with you and possibly more if you wanted it. I'm not going to mess around with you man you could take a girl like this and have her over there tonight if we played the cards right. I've seen it before, and done it many times before.

Here is the thing we want to continue being playful but show that we get her sexuality side to build rapport and stuff. Remember she took the conversation sexual first not us.

That's a load of crap. I know girls are mostly way more sexual than men realize it's just you are better at not talking about it when you want to. I read this book that really opened me up to it all a ways back (Nancy Friday - My Secret Garden) and it told me about various fatansies women had. I have to be honest until that point I was lost but you're not a mystery to me. [insert interesting fact about you]

To be continued...

Side Note: By the way cliff notes are online for the book and I think maybe the first 10 pages of the book is viewable on Amazon and there are plenty of articles written about it. Basically Nancy Friday posted an ad on Craigslist that said for women to write her with her fantasies for a book. The result: a huge collection of deep, detailed, sexual thoughts of women. All kinds of rape fantasies, and other things. It was very insightful and somewhat earth shattering when it came out, and a good read btw.---

Alright there is two ways we can take the end of this message to her. [

Option #1 we can ask her out now and have a pretty good chance. I'd use something like Look I'm not going to bullshit you. I can tell a great deal about a person from sitting across from them for a few minutes. I'm sure you are the same way. Assuming your not an online killer. When are you free for an hour?

**I do this for three reasons. #1 she is fast hard hitting and dominate and we are being the same way to get to the damn point. #2 She is not your average I'm afraid to meet people girl so this approach works. Also I put in the killer thing to just take the objection away from her. When I escalate quickly I get you're probably a killer as a shit test, so I am pre-emptively taking it away. Plus it's playful. #3 We already know she's attracted to you or she wouldn't be talking to you, and secondly she wouldn't be going sexual.

Option 2 - We can continue the conversation with saying something like What else do you have going on for you, besides your looks?

It's your choice but I'm the kind of guy that thinks no risk = no reward.

CHEERS

Jon

_________________
Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

Jsmooth,

To answer your question about the comfort level - I talked to her for quite a while the first night. At least an hour, and about some pretty funny and provocative stuff. She's a psych major, and that's what mine was so we had some interesting conversations...


Anyway, I have to admit, I was a bit skeptical about this technique, but am not skeptical about you. And man, you are a flipping genius! I need to put you on retainer.

So anyway, I typed out what you said, almost verbatim - she responded ONE minute later wondering if I was free tonight. I was going out with some other chick tonight so told her I was having dinner with my dad and watching the soccer game ... but I was free tomorrow night.

She: is 10:45 ok?"
Me: "That's sounds fun, I'm a night owl anyway. Let's talk tomorrow."
She: "I'm not, I just work 'til 10."

She works at a Starbucks, so I can't really call her - we live within 15 minutes of each other and not sure where she'll want to go, but know that chicks don't like to make decisions, and she almost certainly wants the older guy to take charge here. Any suggestions?

Was thinking I'd give her a choice of staying local or going into the city..(DC - 20 minutes away)....

I began to mail to about the real details a while back and now am back on the online stream....

I want to say thanks for your last mail because many people forget about the little details and its you lack of forgetting that is awesome.

The next question invloves frame. I am reading through your mail and it is apparent that your frame is very important. Showing she is chasing you and making yourself the highest value possible. Does this show the difference between being sexy and just nice??

The frames questions as i see are slotted in along normal conversation.
I can see what a frame question works like and have a few myself however they lack congruence. The mystery 'looks are commen' for exaple doesn't easily fit into a conversation and if left at the very end of the message seems to be a little to intrusive ... ?? how do you view this?

My finale queastion invloves microcalibration (yeah i have been doing my homework lol.) Knowing when to stop using these quaifying questions seems to be the difference between being seen as a pressure interview and just making sure you have the right women?? How do you calibrate with only pictures???
Is it her response being forthcoming or not?

I could go on for days...
thnks
Kris

Alisterio,

Glad to hear that you already have a date setup for this evening. I would stay local and suggest you have a movie planned to watch back at your place for later. If you have your night planned in your mind and be solid about your decisions she'll respond well. You are smart in knowing that you don't want to have the "I don't know what do you want to do conversation."

Plan to hang out some place local that you like and then pick out a cool movie to watch later. Bring her into your world and what you enjoy. For the movie preferrably something new that has just come out and you haven't seen so you have a real reason to watch it.

Anyways, good luck on your date tonight. It should be a lot of fun!

Jon

_________________
Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

OK, another situation with another girl.

Anything general to do when a girl doesn't write for a couple of days?


It's the eharmony website, which takes a bit of effort on both people's parts to get to the open communication part, which is where we are.

We seemed to have started to develop a good rapport, and I haven't heard from her a couple of days after a a week or so of pretty regular communication. My next email was going to try to arrange a meeting, cause I can tell she's a bit flaky as in doesn't write long emails, or answer questions any more than briefly, but has continually showed interest in me never waiting more than a day to write until this time. But she hasn't written her next one so I haven't been able to propose a meeting...I'll probably wait another two or three before asking where she's gone, but not sure what to do in this situation.

A bit about her: she LOVES MMA, three of her profile pics are with UFC fighters, and practices jiujitsu herself (I'm a surf/kitesurf bum lol - but I like that difference) but says she loves to cook, listen to and sing music and check out art museums) She's a different girl for sure.

I was thinking of saying "hey, unlike me in the summer, you probably work every day and keeping up with email can be a real pain in the ass, I know. Let's cut the computer out of the equation and meet up this weekend - I know a couple of pretty cool places down near my new house in DC that I think you would like. Here's my email: xxxxx
\-Mark"



thanks J