Hey all. I'm Nate, 24, Minnesota. I joined because I finally admitted to myself that though I'm not great with women (I make all the mistakes I shouldnt and know it) I do find this subject interesting... the whole pick up artist. It's a skill, an art, a way of nature, a game, etc. To be honest about how I am, who I am, and where I stand with all this, I'll give you a bit of background.

Let's make a scale... 10 = all superior knowledge of women. 0 = you should stop trying.

I'd give what I naturally know a solid 6. I've learned up to 8. But there is still a bit that I just dont know or cant make sense of.

See, I'm an engineer. I NEEED to know how things work. I take things apart, draw conclusions, figure out how they work. It's an obsession really. I can make anything in the known world make sense. Action 'A' creates reaction 'a'. Action 'B' creates reaction 'b'... every... single... time. However... there is one topic in this world I cant possibly make sense of... women. See, as far as I'm concerned, they dont follow a set of rules. Action 'A' makes reaction 'U'... but the next time it actually makes reaction 'g6tz9'. This doesnt work for me. Because of my curiousity, I WANT to know more about how these creatures work. I know that deep down, on some forgien genetic or atomic level, women follow a set of rules... they're just much more complicated (or much like a mutation in nature) than most people can fathom. I give props to people that can make sense of women, especially on the fly... that's gotta either take a lot of practice or a lot of skill.

So anyway, I've never been horrible with women. I'm a pretty good looking guy and I believe that's whats helped me in the past. I've been in a few relationships over the years and have a bit of a dilema right now. Last year I screwed up a relationship by NOT pushing hard enough for physical activity. I tried the nice guy approach. I figured, "hey, I'm in, I dont need to win this girl over... I'll give her space, she'll come around eventually". wrong. She ended it because she lost feelings for me (OUCH). I learn from my mistakes. I love to learn from others mistakes even more. I told myself I would never fall for this one again and moved on.

A year goes by and I'm on a dry spell. About december 08 I started talking to this chick that works at my apartment complex office. I always have packages so I'd flirt a bit. Finally one day in Feb I asked her out. She told me she isnt allowed to date tenants, but if I keep my mouth shut, she'd love to. Awkward things happened, date never happened (long story, and kinda worthless). she finds me on facebook. FINALLY I had a way to talk to her. I start messaging her a bit and eventually score the date. Took her out and had a great time. went on another and another and another... it's been about a month now. she's getting quite comfortable with me. I like where it's going. But a few things are throwing me off and I could use some insight.

1) she's very independent so she feels no need to be around people/guys/etc. it doesnt bother her.

2) I'm always the one calling or texting her for another date. this was fine at first but now its been long enough where I think she could put some effort into it.

3) she takes forever to get back to me from txts or calls, sometimes half a day. weird. and no i dont contact her every day, im not being needy, trust me, i give her space.

4) one sunday we had plans to do something (didnt determine what time or what, but we were going to do something that day). I txt her, no response (as usual). call her a few hours later... her phones off, it went straight to her message machine. whatever. i call again 5 hours later. phone still off. i give up. thought about it the next morning, realized she said she was going to go out with her friends the night before. like i said shes independent so whos to say something didnt happen when she was going home... no one would know cuz they dont talk to her much. i get nervous that something happened. i didnt want to call and look weak, but i couldnt keep cool all day wondering if maybe shes actually hurt. figured wussing out is better alternative cuz i needed to know. she answers right away, says shes getting her brakes done and that she was going to txt me. she claims she was SICK all day (hangover plus cold, etc. puking her guts out all day so stayed at home and did nothing). I dont buy it. doesnt matter anyway.

5) Saturday night we came back to my place, watched a movie, after the movie i made a move. one thing lead to another and pretty soon im really giving it to her... for about an hour. i could tell she enjoyed it. both went to sleep. woke up in the morning and did it again. finally got up and it wasnt awkward (was expecting it to be a bit). life was great, things were moving as planned. she obviously likes me enough and is comfortable enough to sleep with me.

6) tuesday this week i take her out for dinner. 930 rolls around and im thinking of something to do. we rent a movie and go back to my place. on the way there she says how she has to get up early (630ish) to go to the gym and work out with Nick (her personal trainer... hmmm). OK fine, ill take her home early. then she says "well i meant that i probably shouldnt stay over... besides, i have contacts and it hurts my eyes if i dont take them out... and my throat hurts real bad, i might have strep". hmm, ok, fine... im still going to try and get some. watch the movie, start making my move. it starts working. just when i thought i gave it enough jolt i made the "lets go to my room move". she goes to the bathroom. i go in my room with the lights off expecting her to come in. she comes in, turns the light on (basically saying im not getting any). i work it some more (neck kissing always does the trick). starting to recover, hehe. then she pauses and starts talking "umm, well... [pause]... you know... I..." in the tone of voice of "hey i think we should see other people" (she didnt say that, but it was the tone she had). I get scared, she isnt letting it out. shes nervous. im waiting for a response. she says that she should go home... it took her a while to say it though. i said ok, cut my losses, and get my keyes. then she says "well not yet..." hmmmmm, okkkkkkkk wtf woman. so i start up again. few min later she stops again. at this point i give up. i ask her if somethings wrong and she says no. afterall, it is about 1:30 in the morning and she wants to get up at 6:30. i take her home. on the way home she looked at her phone. i guess nick dude txt and said that he couldnt make it in the morning. she read it to me. now she feels bad. im already pissed so i just keep going. get to her place, and ask her what we were. i figured after 1 month of constant dating that it was just assumed it was a relationship, especially after the sex. she says how she likes where we're at and want to keep going on dates before we give it a title. i was blown away. i went with it. then she brings out the big guns that you should never talk about until later in a relationship. asks "all weirdness and creepiness aside... we should share our opinions on the 'life' questions". "are you ever going to get married" "kids?" "goals?" etc. she tells me she isnt seeing anyone else (i think i actually believe her). then we start talking about sex. she says shes never moved that fast before and it was unexpected that it was going to happen. says that she liked it though (i already knew that though). asks if we should turn it down a notch. i shrug. she says that we shouldnt because "after you've had cake and icecream its hard to go back to just cake". ok, great! i figured its just an odd night of communication and i should just end it. i give her a long, sweet goodbye kiss and go home a bit pissed.

at this point i dont know what to do, think, say, etc. I feel that its a close battle between her and I and shes starting to get the upper hand. i could tell her im seeing other people in a way that doesnt make me look like im weak and making it up. i could break it off. i could do a lot of things. in the end i decide the best thing to do is not do anything at all and go with whatever. afterall, ive wanted this chick since december and i got the gold medal... should i really be picky and go for multiple golds?

she txts me yesterday for the 2nd time ever without me having txt her first. says "Hey! Happy hump day... So just a heads up I think I have strep throat I feel worse today, I hope I didnt get you sick." nothign special, but maybe she thought i needed more attention after i called her out on her communication skills. day goes by, now it's thursday. she went up to her parents cabin with family for the weekend. says she'll be back sunday. i tell her to call me or whatever and we'll make plans to hang out.

I talked to my ex from HS (we are really good friends, i have zero feelings for her and she has zero for me. we can talk about anything and shes really my woman bible. she doesnt hold back. i trust her opinions. she lives across the country now so shes not sending me wrong messages for whatever reason women do it for) told her all this. she says "honestly I dont think you guys are going to work out. It seems as if she DOES like you, but thinks that maybe it isnt going to work out down the road. maybe shes seening another guy (I dont think so). maybe shes just waiting for something better to come along, sorry I'm being blunt nate." yadda yadda. i take it for what its worth... an honest opinion. I understand where this is going and am thinking taylor is probably right... after all, its exactly what i was thinking.

So here I am...

I'm at the crossroads. I really like this chick, but lets be honest, theres others out there. I feel im losing the battle and hanging on the cliff. i dont think its too late to swoop in and sweep her off her feet. she hasnt given up yet... but will soon if something that shes looking for doenst happen.

What should I do?

I think even though I'm not needy with her, she has yet to see me "start to lose interest". if I dont call her she will probably wonder whats up. if i take her on a date and then drop her off without even trying to get some she'll wonder whats up. I'm lost on what I should do. If she isnt head over heals for me yet after a month, shes not going to be. its not going to work out in the end to be a lasting lifelong relationship. but i'd like to milk it for all its worth in the meantime.

What's my next move... the earliest I'll see her is sunday. Probably wont talk to her til then either, if I even talk to her then.

Anyway, sorry for the long introduction... I'd appreciate any help I can get.

also, the book "the game" or something like that... ive heard it mentioned a few times on here... where can i get a copy? Thanks fellas

1. Lose your focus on her. She's reading you like a book and calling all the shots. Get her out of your mind in a real way and persue other opportunities.

2. Pull back. Quit calling and texting her. Let her show some interest. Fact is,,, you always want to keep it that she's more interested than you are.

3. Regroup. Pulling back and changing tactics doesn't mean being upset with her or acting mean. It means that you improve your worth level by showing her you got shit going on too. You have to keep a positive mindset towards her, because all the contact she has to have with you in the future has to be an excellent experience. So less contact, better quality.

This approach has to be real. Try treating her like a brat little sister. That will give her the correct vibe. But just reading your post, it was so long outlining sooo man differeant events. It's seems to show that you are way in too deep.

But look,,, just chill out have fun with it. Ask yourself,,, if this whole thing dies and goes down the "shitter" how bad will you feel? Why?

Good luck Bro!

It was long because I dont like to leave out any details that might be of importance.

I'll cut back. In fact, I wont even make contact until she does first.

I dont have a sister so I wouldnt know how to treat a bratty one. This seems overboard and would likely just piss her off (IMO). How do I go abouts with this method?

I think you need to think outside the box and create some visualizations that might help,,, maybe even jump into her brain for a while and consider how your approach is looking to her.

Actually see yourself appoaching her through her eyes and ears. Pretend you are her. Now the guy you are looking at, you in this case, are you coming across as one of those dashing and daring guys that really turn women on? WHen she sees the phone ringing and it's you, does she get excited and jump right on it? Does she expect that it's going to be a blast talking to you? Does she feel a little neglected and excited to know that you've finally called?

She's playing a little hard to get in my view. Do you find that at least a little stimulating? I think the trick is to turn that around and getting her wanting you more than you want her. It a value play. You have to raise your level of value to create more attraction.

The bratty little sister is just a way to change your mindset. Let's say you meet an actual HB10. Now if you're not a 10 knocker downer, which I certainly am not, your brain might go into the "awe" mode and you could easily come across as lame. So to get away from that, I actually change the person I'm talking to in my mind from a HB10, to mine, or someone elses bratty little sister. I don't take what they say all too seriously. I tease them some. I neg on them some.

ANyways, if you're an engineer, consider that your brain works very logically. Womans brains are ruled by emotions, feeling and instincts. So you have to cross that bridge to get a better understanding of them.

Good luck

Haha thanks dude. I'm still a bit lost

"I think the trick is to turn that around and getting her wanting you more than you want her."

This is my next attempt. I've treated her well, I've cared for her, etc... but in a way that wouldnt come off as needy or anything else that's "bad". However... after deep thinking about it, I realize I've done nothing to better myself, make myself worth more to her. I'm just glad I'm not too late. I dont know how I'm going to go about doing this, but I do know that I'll not contact her until she contacts me. I do know that I will reject any intitation to anything she asks me to do (in a sorta nice way). I do know that I'm going to go on the prowl for others. If I can keep my mind off of her I will score huge points. I'm already doing this with women from work. I dont want anythign to do with them. Maybe a "hi, how are you doing?" from time to time, but that's it. I know of three that are borderline stalking me (all of them are friends with one another). It truely is a numbers game.

The problem is I'm an honest person. Why lie to fib to someone? Why would I want to play a game? If I want a game I'll play halo or whatever. Equal constant communication is what I want... but the older I get, the more I realize that it isnt going to be that easy. I'm realizing I dont have much choice but to play their game. I've put up the white flag. I give up. Deal me in Mr. dealer... I'm going to clean the table... time to learn the ropes.

Nate I can see you have a good attitude about it. The things I wrote are my slant on things. Your best bet is to do a lot of research on this site and learn as much as you can of what will work for you.

Don't think of it as a bad thing either. WOuld you feel bad about a tennis lesson? Of course not. The game with women is obviously even more import. You probably worked your ass off getting your degree. Congrats, but all the work you put into that will be shot if you end up with the wrong lady.

So here's my last word on it.

The skills and talents you need to meet ladies are the same skills and talents you will need to maintain your relationship with them. Even after you're married with kids believe it or not.

SO good luck and have some fun with it.

Cheers!

"all the work you put into that will be shot if you end up with the wrong lady. "

goooood point.

I guess I've always been afraid that ifI learn all these skills and figure out how to pick up ladies easily, that it's going to mess me for life. like I'll never find anyone good enough or I simply wont like the truth and reality I see with what I have to do. I cant explain it really. It's like it's going to scar me for life. I'll never settle down. I wont trust women because I know how manipulated they can be from ANY guy with proper skills. Oh well, life is life... might as well enjoy it, whatever enjoyment might be.

Thanks for the help Nightrider. Looks like I've got some reading to do.

btw that request about the book I had at the end of my first post... where can I get a copy?

Welcome to the forum Nate.

First of all....I'm going to openly and directly disagree with nightrider, in that you DON'T need to spend ALOT of time studying this. Like any forum of "art", all you need to do is learn the basics of things and then let it flow through practice. The fact of the matter is, no matter how much we break down women we will never fully-scope them. People can not be completely analyzed, because of our emotion. Emotion is a variable that in many cases can't be explained. I do recommend you ACCLIMATE yourself to how things work, but don't spend to much time "studying". If you have questions however, feel free to ask (if you are looking for immidiate response, try the PUA Chat link at the top, there is usually someone in there who can help you).

As per your situation; nightrider's idea is good. However, it doesn't take into account that you DONT know her reasoning. You said, her job prevents her from openly communicating with you. That could be a legitamite reason to "allow" things to go. In any case, it would be worth it to try giving her more space and have her make some effort. In the event she doesn't, you have one option. Being Direct.

You bring it to her attention that you AREN'T satisfied with the situation. If your not being needy already, and you stand by the fact shes not putting forth effort; you are standing up for your position as a man. The fact of the matter is, you don't have to waste your time putting your time in if she isn't going to reciprocate, and if she doesn't get the hint within a week the only thing to do is to "put her agaisnt the ropes".

Hi dude, firstly I strongly disagree with nightrider, and with your ex, and I'll explain why, in a moment.

First, I think you would do yourself the biggest favour by adjusting your perception. Nothing wrong with your engineer's approach, you just have to apply it properly

Women actually do follow a set of rules, it's just that you're working from a black box perspective, so the outputs don't make sense. The more time you spend experimenting and studying this stuff, the more sense they will make.

Also, as an engineer, you have to accept that there are certain variables that you can't control down to the nth degree, so you have to factor in certain allowable tolerances. For example, in night clubs it's loud, noisy, and girls are on a high. They can snob you for some random reason that you will not know, so you have to expect random negative behaviour as part of the process. Whereas day gaming, girls are comfortable, and there's no distractions, so you have more control over what happens, and can take the results more seriously.


Regarding your current situation - I would not assume too early that she made up the excues that she was sick. It's fairly likely, no reason to make a judgement there. Be careful because making those kinds of judgements shows you're paranoid about how she sees you, and it will start to show in your behaviour. Should it really matter to you wether it was a lie or not? Let her have that space to lie a little about those things if she needs it, why not.

I think your reaction to her uncertainty was good - you just got fed up with the back and forth, she's obviously got something on her mind. I have a suspicion that "Nick" was a story - but again, doesn't matter Now - in that situation I believe you should come right out and say "Hey, you're acting kinda wierd. What's up?" not agressively, just directly. And I believe the stuff she told you at the door was actually what would have come out at that point, had you have asked her that. Quite possibly the "marriage" questions were just a way to make her feel comfortable with you - I'd believe the idea that the sex came too quickly for her, I've been with girls who felt/behaved the same way.

So it's no surprise to me that she's finally texting you after that, she probably felt more comfortable with you at that point. She probably thought you were a player, and the marriage questions would scare you away if you were. (See how it makes sense once you know what's going on inside?)

My opinion is that, and so I disagree with your ex, and I disagree with nightrider. I think this girl was just scared because of how quickly the sex happened. Nothing wrong with that, per se, just needs comforting afterwards. I believe what you need here is understanding, not combat. I think freezing out would be a bad idea now that she's starting to get comfortable. I would say she needs more examples of how you're not a player - so turning down the temperature on the sex, to respect her wishes, would do that. And she's right - in a few weeks or something, when you guys go hard at it again, it will be more exciting.

Hmm, interesting theories.

Well to update everything a bit... I still have yet to hear from her. She text me that once on wednesday morning about her being sick with strep (a lie, because I feel fantastic and my tounge was down her throat). I saw her that afternoon at the office and whatnot and havnt seen or heard from her since. I'm still wondering if giving her the space is a bad idea on the fact that I think she might be testing me to see if I really was a player... that I got the sex and now I've "left"... which isnt true at all. Either way, I told her to call ME when she got back from her cabin.

I wouldnt doubt if "Nick" was a story in itself... it seems to be the only guy she talks to. And I'd imagine he looks pretty good if he's a body builder.

I did ask her that night if anything was wrong. She said "no, nothings wrong" in a small, kind sort of tone along with a smile. Either she was really comfortable being around me in that situation and she was telling the truth or she was completely lying.

I wish I could just solve this right now... but I have to wait. hmm. well I better go keep myself busy.