Hey all, I've been in the chatroom a bit recently and people keep asking me NLP-related questions as I know quite a bit about it. So instead of writing out similar anwers all the time, I've told people to ask me here so you can all benefit.

First off, let me explain that I have no formal qualification regarding NLP. The closest I have come to this is being trained one-to-one by a certified NLP trainer in the East Anglian area of the UK. Incidentally, I had actually sarged her for this purpose, (but for the record never banged her as she had metal plates in her back...).

I use NLP for a wide range of disciplines including sales and magic, but have only recently been requested by people to use it to get rid of addictions. My future interests include wanting to branch out into the realms of phobia cure.

Much information about NLP is now freely available. In light of this, I'll be looking add value in two ways -

1. To show you methods that are new cutting-edge in the field
2. To convey to you what has actually WORKED for me in field, and what hasn't.

It's all about being in-field, so I'll be more inclined to help those who've tried they're stuff in-field. At present I lead a group of PUAs (founded almost 2 years ago) in the UK and our methods are based on many NLP principles. (They can be found at: http://www.apostlesofpickup.com/ but you will not be able to view anything or join the forum as it is private.)

Please make questions specific, not just "how do I get the girl to fuck me" or "How do I NLP her". Cheers =).

pleasure to be the first to post here

Now Mr.Gambler I mean Rafiel Gamble.<img src="http://imgs.pbnation.com/smilies/dodgy.gif"></img>

What Material do you believe has helped you the most to get you where you are?
(aside from Reverse sticky) For a beginner with basic NLP knowledge where is a good place to start to learn the fundamental of certain acronyms and meaning of these key words in NLP?

How did you practice getting better at NLP and Social Engineering, is this like Magic? In Magic I can practice infront of a mirror all day to get the 'trick' done... but performing the material isn't the hard part.
The hard part is having confidence in your 'trick' that you will not get caught making you a better performer because you can pay attention to your surrounding and maybe use it to your advantage instead of tunnel visioning yourself.

Thanks for your time.

-Rem

Rem, it's also a pleasure to answer.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Introducing-Neu ... 1855383446

^That book was written by people who were taught by the guys who pioneered NLP. It is an asbolutely brilliant book. Although it is 'introducing' NLP, it pretty much comprehensively explains all the main concepts. I have read many books on NLP and trust me, that will get you further than most.

After that, study Ross Jeffries and Speed Seduction. SS is basically the style of game that most formally utilizes NLP. However we all use the principles to an extent.
Social Engineering is a totally unrelated system to NLP, apologies if I have onfused you here. It is also not directly related to PU, that is for you to make the bridge. To practice getting better at NLP, I actually made a few friends test subjects and just sat down with them and tried to make them think a certain colour such as blue, was actually red, or tried to make them give me their wallet etc without them realising.

From here I learned through practice. (I also did this with conversational hynosis). Best thing to do is simply to practice NLP in the field. The hard part is measuring your success, as success can be attributed to many things. But that is for you to judge. Keep practicing in the field. Learn some canned NLP routines to begin with, after that it will come natural =).

You're right about confidence in magic and NLP. As a magician myself, (I use NLP in a lot of mentalism routines), you have to make the trick seem natural, just like you have to make NLP seem natural.

Remember the golden rule, only about 7% of communcation is the content of what you say. The rest is body language and tone of voice. It's all about delivery =).

Hope this helps and I'm happy to take more questions buddy.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr-QtNE9k84[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR4y5iX4uRY[/youtube]

I am a huge Derren Brown fan. Do you formulate your own techniques to achieve those results, or did you mostly do what he does (swish pattern/embedded commands/distraction/faking rapport)?

I am curious as I have never tried something like this before.

How much does it depend on your choice of subject?

What is else is going on here (in the DB vids or in your own practice) other than what I stated, if anything, that makes this possible?

_________________
There are no failures, only feedback.

Hey dude
I make my own stuff. I have actually tried most of Derren Brown's NLP routines verbatim, but they're not THAT great. Once you know the principles it's easy to make your own. I also use NLP as a salesman.

In the field, I have quite a few SS routines memorised, so I tend to mix routines, off-the-cuff stuff and taking advantage of the opportunity stuff all together. The more practice the better you get, as always!
I'm presuming you mean choice of person. In my experience it doesn't make a huge difference, SO LONG AS YOU GAIN RAPPORT. Gaining rapport is different for every person, for some it is easier than others. The other day some Yobs came up to me whilst I was gambling (hence my name) on a slot machine, and demanded money. I just smiled to myself, because I knew I was going to use NLP and specifically rapport to game them. We all ended up good friends and playing on the slots together, a pound each (ultimate trust). I almost considered writing a field report!

I also use conversational hypnosis. Here, the choice of person does make a difference - some people are more suggestible than others (suggestible, not gullible), so it takes less long. ~10% of the population are also VERY suggestible. These people are great to do it with (devious smile).
As a magician myself i have of course watched and dissected Derren very closely, and learnt what I can from him (I believe my knowledge transcends his, but my experience and delivery is far inferior).

I have been asked to explain his moves before (I have read all his books, including some of the most sought after secret ones), and I don't believe it's right to do this in such a public arena, so I apologise. You are on the right lines, but let's just say he uses a lot more than NLP to accomplish his results.

Also, you mentioned earlier about faking rapport - never 'fake' rapport. I was taught this by one of the leading NLP practioners in the world, Kenrick Clieveland. If you fake rapport and you're caught (e.g. you synchronize your walking timing with HB next you, and she realizes unconsciously or consciously) the result is not very pretty. That is quite a stark example but also if you match their body language too quickly or mis-time pacing and leading it's not great. You should always be creating non-verbal (and verbal) rapport naturally, and BELIEVE in it, not fake it. Enjoy it. Just like the best way to lie is to BELIEVE the lie.

Back on the topic of Derren Brown, one thing I will mention is that he uses this technique very well. This is something I've hypothesized myself, and it hasn't been jargon-ised yet as far as I know. He occupies the critical faculty (left brain) of the person, whilst manipulating the more suggestive right brain. It's a form of distraction and is VERY EFFECTIVE, embedded commands can just go right in like that. I use it to get free bus rides in Cambridge. It's great =)

Hope this helps =).

Great, thanks a lot.

I'll fire off another batch if you don't mind.

1. How much time did it take you (hours per day, over Xmonths) to reach this level? What do you think is the most efficient path to get there?

2. How much of your persuasive techniques are second nature? How much do you have to consciously think and construct/recite patterns in order to get the result?

3. If a storm trooper came up to you, could you convince him that these are not the droids he's looking for?

_________________
There are no failures, only feedback.

Are you well versed in Speed Seduction? If you are I'll sticky this thread.

Chief, yes I am, that would be great.

Plethora, that's not a problem, here we go! Hmm, it's difficult to say for me, because I've always been a psychology junkie and started learning NLP way before PU. I would say the most efficient path to get here is:

1. Learn the basic material. Sounds boring, but I know so many people who have heard of NLP, learn a couple of techniques such as anchors and then wonder why the hell it doesn't seem to work in the field. David Beckham didn't become David Beckham by picking up a football one day. He became David Beckham by looking pretty. Haha. Joking. He learnt and practiced.

2. Once you got the techniques down, try them in your every day life. Use sitautions in every day life just to throw in the odd presupposition or embedded command/weasel phrase. Make anchors that you can use on everyone. I have one for happiness/smile, one for 'i need to go now' (very useful because it's impolite to say this oftentimes), and one for sadness (usually to link to stuff I don't want to happen).

3. Get a test subject(s)! This may be hard depending on who you are, but I have an infinite supply of friends. I have chosen the 'loser-ish' type to be my subjects, because they comply to anything and don't seem to have anything better to do/don't question what's happening much. They are easy to mold. Just tell them you want to improve your communication. Practice persuading them to do things they wouldn't normally do. Make an anchor for happiness and see if they half-smile when you fire it.

4. Memorise some SS or NLP routines and try them out. You will notice how amazing it is when it works. I don't want you to feel so damn crazy that you either think you're the shit or you just want to scream "DAMN I'M SO GOOD?" Are you? I think you are, or you will be. Have you ever felt this feeling before? When? =)

^The last 3 are the 3 ways to practice. Practice makes perfect. May not be interesting, but its so, so true. When you run out of inspiration, wack up youtube and watch the experts.

Let me just add something while you're practicing. As Ross Jeffries says, STORIES and DESCRIPTIONS are the vehicles for which you throw in all your tools to manipulate someone. If you just go up to someone and say "You might be very attracted to me now or now", they're gonna think you're nuts. Use stories, they're very deceptive.

E.G. "My mate Kim (always say they're name, it's more believable) was saying the other day, that it's amazing when you just go inside deeply and feel that sensation, when you realise that your deepest need and desire is just to want someone (point to self) who truly understands you. Do you find this to be true?" (YES RAFIEL, I DO, FUCK ME NOW!)
This is a good question. When I started out learning this stuff, I was like "Whaaaa? When am I ever gonna be able to say all that off the cuff?" Well, you'll be surprised, because IT WILL BECOME second nature. Especially once you've memorised a few basic routines. I'm always throwing in phrases like "YOU LIKE ME, can understand that...", or "You know when you FEEL THAT HAP-PENIS (happiness), you just want to find a NEW-DERECTION (new direction) in your life...." blah blah. The way you speak will change. You will focus on changing how they feel, not how they think.

If I was going to SS a girl until the full close, I would generally mix a lot of patterns I memorised ages ago without even realising it. It does become natural, but you do need to memorise some patterns to give you the confidence.
Haha. If he spoke English, yes, I believe so! Unless he didn't have feelings, because feelings are one of those wonderful things that enable me to manipulate you =).

Hey man, I've come across plenty of articles and resources on this before but I'm still not sure I fully understand the subject. The areas of nlp-derived material that I'm most interested in are the concepts of frame and frame control. I was hoping you could shed some light on what frame and frame control are.

From what I gather, the frame is the dominant underlying belief regarding the dynamics in any social interaction. So, for example, lets say a guy walks up to a girl in a club. Her underlying belief regarding the interaction is that he's a guy trying to hit on her, thus she is in the dominant position because (according to her frame) she is the decider. But lets say, then, that the guy is someway educated in pick-up. So he's at a point where he understands that conveying to a woman that you are of lesser social status than her is hugely unattractive. So he uses techniques (an indirect opener, socially dominant behaviour, teasing etc) to convey that he's NOT trying to hit on her while simultaneously building attraction. Now she starts to 'chase' him, thus putting him in the dominant position of decider. So would this be an example of him controlling the frame of the interaction (changing her underlying belief regarding the dynamics of the interaction to align with his own)?

Hopefully this makes sense. Also, are there any techniques you can suggest for practicing frame control?

Punkyfish, excellent question!

Framing, metaframing and frame control is absolutely essential to my pick up style, and it is probably a significant part of other successful PUA's who don't even know about the technique; they probably do it naturally.

So yes, overall you are right, and yes that is an example of maintaining a good frame. Definitions:

FRAME: A frame is the underlying meaning of the conversation/interaction.
METAFRAME: The underlying meaning of any bit, phrase or gesture that presupposes the frame.

You use metaframing to set and control the frame, because you can't really go up to a girl and say "Despite the fact that you are amazingly hot and I have approached you and I am trying to pick you up, I am dominant and you submit to me." Haha. No, that would not be successful.

But, I don't know if you have noticed, but the hotter the girls get, the difficult it becomes to set and maintain the thread. Let me give an example interaction I had recently with HB8, Becky. It went something like this:

(We are in café, I picked her up in local library and bounced)-

Becky: "You just want to get with my don't you" (setting the frame)
Rafiel: "Jesus. Are you like this with all guys you try to pick up?" (role reversal - I take back the frame! She blushes)
Becky: "No, who would want to touch that?" (Gesturing at me, trying to regain the frame)
Rafiel: "Only those who dare Becks, only those who dare" (Didn't jump into her hoop to qualify myself, her attempt to regain the frame fails, I win, I get laid, hooray)

^That is an example of frame control. You may have noticed, a more common term for her phrases is shit tests. Aha! You see where this is going? It's all about the frame. Without tracks there's no train to take you to the destination, and the frame is the tracks. 1. Role reversal.

2. Meta-framing. E.g. "Hmm...I like you, you're different." (What does that imply? That you are discerning, and YOU are deciding if YOU like HER, it's not about if she likes you. This is metaframing at its subtlest)

3. Don't jump into her hoops.

4. Tell her to "shhhh" or to shutup. Really. This is great, and so powerful. It goes right passed the bitch factor, critical faculty and everything. She stops what she is saying (unconsciously jumped into your hoop), and wonders what gives you the authority to say that. Your arrogance and unpredictability = attraction, and you set the frame that you are in charge. As a bonus, afterwards say "Now you can talk again", and she will of course, which metaframes the fact that you are in control of her. Genius. Yes Rafiel.

5. Non-verbal framing. Yes. When you peck you give in to her frame. You should be practicing rapport by matching her body language, so lean back when she does. Generally, take every opportunity to lean back and take as much space as possible, especially when sitting down or in a group. You are in control, that's your frame.

A couple of tips here. I love to watch myself and the body language of some pick ups. In the same café I spoke about earlier with a complete random HB9 Ruth, I opened, sat down and leaned forward as she was already leaning forward and doing some work. So we were both leaning forward. Great. I match her body language. Then, I reach the hook of the PU, and I sit back in my seat and watch affectionately as she too sits back (unconsciously).

I then lean forward real close and kino, then lean back again. Now she leans forward and stays forward. Anyone watching from a distance would see her leaning into me, and me being laid back and not caring much. Non-verbally, I have the frame. Yeah baby.

6. Set the frame from the beginning. You have to set the frame while she cares about the frame. This is advanced stuff for advanced PUA's. Many people wonder why they find it so hard to get out of freindzone once they join the community and want to game old chicks. Thinks about their frame. The girl is thinking "I've known you for a while, I realised you were not a potential candidate in the first 5 mins of meeting you and you're only really here for comfort and the odd laugh".

If you set the frame in your opener, you're on. Example:

Rafiel: "Hey, excuse me, EXCUSE ME, EXCUSE MEEEE!!!!!!"
(Here I am interrupting her state)

HB: (Stops, takes earphone out of ear, looks at me confused) "err...what?"

Rafiel: "Have you ever had that experience of meeting someone you just feel so comfortable with? Well, I saw you standing there and I just had to say, you have the most beautiful eyes, they look like the sea."

HB: Err....thanks...

Rafiel: That's not a problem at all. You seem a bit weird though. Are you weird? (This is the crucial point where I set the frame. I am subtly showing that I AM JUDGING HER, not that she is judging me. Brilliant).


Hope this helps mate =)

Great thread, Rafiel. Respek. I'd give you points but I don't have any to give because I only joined the forum yesterday (...don't be fooled by that though, I've been in the game for a while). So instead I'll give you something you may find to be much more useful.

To introduce the body of this post, I want to point out that you're using NLP on everybody reading this thread even as you explain how you use NLP. I'm not against it, I just thought it was interesting and worth pointing out, mainly because there's something to learn from it; once you begin to understand NLP, you can see that NLP is very real and exists everywhere, especially in the places where we often cannot see it.

I began reading a Malcolm Gladwell book (not a PUA book, just a regular one – call me old-fashioned) named "The Tipping Point" yesterday, which in one chapter describes different types of people who contribute to "word-of-mouth epidemics". One of the sub-chapters was about "the Salesman" (Pp. 70-89). In this sub-chapter, Gladwell explained in simple terms some scientifically proven experiments relating to the subtleties of persuasion, each of which were examples of overlooked NLP, even if Gladwell didn't realize this as he wrote it.

Psychologist Brian Mullen put together an experiment where he showed people clips of newscasters Peter Jennings, Tom Brokaw, and Dan Rather talking about Reagan. The clips were on mute and the people watching had no idea what the news was about, yet they were asked for to rate the expression on their face on 1 to 17, 1 being "extremely negative" and 17 being "extremely positive." Brokaw and Rather were right in the center of the spectrum but Jennings got a 14.4. The interesting part of this isn’t that Peter Jennings is a biased Republican, it’s that Mullen performed a follow-up experiment that found that almost 80% of the people who watched Jennings voted for Reagan! Just because Jennings smiled while talking about Reagan he was able to persuade most of his viewers unintentionally to vote for his preferred candidate. Lesson One: Smile, and smile often. Not a dumb grin from ear to ear and not an evil smile. A regular, natural smile will suffice. Plus, the physical act of smiling releases endorphins causing you to become happier and ergo, much more likeable to men and attractive to women. I learned that from “Mental Floss”, not “The Tipping Point”. Lesson Two: The lazy man’s route is not always the wrong route, like in mathematics, it’s important to skip steps and look outside the box. Why bother doing the work of creating a weak (relatively) anchor when people have certain emotions already anchored to very simple actions. Since you were born, smiling has been anchored to happiness. Now I’m not disowning the SS forms of anchoring, they can do wonders, I just want you all to be aware that the most effective anchors are the universal anchors, the ones that have been set in stone long before you came onto the scene.

Here’s another experiment that also helps to teach these poignant lessons. A large group of students were part of market research study of a company selling high-tech headphones. This was, ostensibly, to find out how the sound quality was in the headphones, so in three separate rooms, groups were told to listen to a radio editorial about how the tuition for their college should be raised from $567 to $750 as they kept their head still, nodded side to side, or nodded up and down. After several minutes, the students were told they could take off their headphones and would answer a few questions before going. One of the questions was: “What do you think the price of tuition should be?” The first two groups were strongly sticking to the price of $567 or saying it should be lowered. The last group vivaciously argued for the price hike even though they were part of the student body, and would be affected negatively by the tuition increase. This happened because the motion of nodding the head up and down is anchored to agreeing with something.

Hopefully, this will help each guy who reads it to reach a new level in his game. Give me some feedback too; I want to hear what you have to say about what I wrote. I’m not very good at being altruistic and I like knowing when I’ve actually helped someone.

…And Chief, definitely sticky this thread.

PS. I'm going to make some different NLP patterns incorporating head nodding and field-test them sometime this month. I'll give some field reports of the ones that were most effective. And if anyone else notices subtle, universal gestures (that can be applied to seduction somehow) like the ones I mentioned above, post it on the thread, I'd love to hear it.

I have become used to listening for double entrendes or whatthefuck they're called; things with several meanings
Like the already mentioned example, here put into context:
"...Sometimes it just feels good, to move towards a NUDE ERECTION (new direction) you know that feeling right ? When you see this Nude erection clearly in front of you and you feel that desire to reach out.... etc."

I sometimes have to choke down laughter when talking to a girl and feeding her stuff like this..
The world _is_ a fucking amusement park, and you're the guy with the top-hat and the bullwhip, The Jester, the magician.
Go out with someone who gets this sort of thing, and play.

And; No, it's _not_ evil or immoral to turn a woman on without her knowing why (Deep down, they all know.)

Hey Chief i actually have a couple of questions

1. what can nlp be used for ? is it kind of like being assertive and getting what you want done w/o the other realizing it .

2. how can NLP be learned is it like audio ? that you hear at night . you put the audio on and then you go to sleep .. you wake up more alive

3. can nlp be used to gain self confidence and remove self consciousness

4. how is NLP used in seduction .

Haha, cheers man. Don't worry, I'm not in it for the 'rep points' or whatever, I'm helping largely because I could have done with someone like me a few years back, and to clear any misconceptions about NLP and seduction. Yes of course! I tried not to, but sometimes I just can't help it. When was the last time you just felt so good? =). The smiley is my anchor online. But to be honest, from a lot of field experience, NLP online doesn't exactly have drastic effects. Better used in real life.

You reminded me of something very important which I will update in my anchors article later - the use of natural anchors. Everyone has them. I realised that when I'm preparing myself for action, like just before a fight, I always pound my fists...such a good anchor! I tried doing that before making some crazy approaches and it helps a lot. You can steal anchors from other people as well, like you can make a girl nervous/attracted by touching your hair just like she does when she feels nervous/attracted.

Thanks for your input.

Big bad wolf, yes this is great. That particular one has become somewhat saturated in the 'market' as it were...I'm unsure whether it's such a popular NLP phrase that some HB's might even spot it.

Nevertheless, it's important to understand that just throwing that in does nothing...one has to stack the language and principles to create a tangible effect.