Hi all, decided to register since I've just failed on the second one in a row (had both going pretty well) and thought I'd ask what happened with the second one and get some mental support. I think it's an interesting report and deserves telling even if it is really long.

I met this HB on vacation abroad and we ended up traveling for twenty days together. It was a good trip and we had some KINO but she kept talking about her boyfriend of the time. During the trip, I went to bed with her friend (not a HB, and probably a big mistake), who later promised to help me achieve my true goals.

HB was moving to my city and needed a place to stay, and I reluctantly offered to let her sleep in my place for a week (on not-HB's advice). I bet this was the next big mistake. With her sleeping at my place, I had no control whatsoever over when, where, and in what condition we meet.

Anyway, so she's at my place for a few days, and we're having lots of KINO but nothing more, and I'm giving her more than she's receiving. She's also flirting with me a lot, telling me, for example "I dreamed of you last night" and then describing her dream: "There was a big crowd of people and everyone wanted to go one way, but you wanted to go the other way. I followed you, and you were right." I answer "I didn't dream of you" and later added "because your a dream even in the daytime."

I decided to be romantic and left a flower for her in her bed. She says "I have to understand this as a token of friendship" and I'm like "Don't get the wrong idea." Everything good at that point. Later, on the same evening, we were having drinks in my apartment with my friends and she was drinking more than usual, so I thought I was about to close.

So I suggest we go out onto the balcony to talk about what I told her earlier, and she wants to and we go and this is where the kissing should have begun but I somehow blew it (probably talking too much about how special she is), and she says I'm drunk and that she thought I was going to stop smoking.

Later, she says she needs some time apart, goes to her parents house for 7 days, then comes back. At this point, I have no energy left for patterning. KINO was getting scarce but I was too slow to react properly, i.e. by being disinterested and quitting with the touching. (Is this the right strategy?)

Then the major crash. Went together to a party and I was playing with her hair a little bit and she says "don't do that, people will think we're together." I was really drunk and smoking like a chimney all night and she hates this. Then suddenly I'm telling her that both of us are going to miss a great opportunity and that I'm 100% sure I can give her everything she wants. This was definitely the wrong thing to say at the time. And she was like: "I know when the right one comes and you're not it. And I don't have any regrets." Then I argued with her about it for a few minutes. And she mentions that she would never be with someone who has had something with one of her friends. Later, I gave her a little angry shove when she claimed that she's staying with me because we're friends.

She moved out the next day, which was a good thing. We texted and she says she's not angry but thinks we should not see each other for the time being. So that's the story. Any advice besides 1) lay off the alcohol 2) back off when they back off? Should I give it another try after a few weeks or just forget all about it?

You went WAAAAAY too romantic too fast and scared the shit out of her. She began telling you that you were heading in the friends zone and you just kept pushing instead of showing disinterest when you should have. Also, you did a ton of things she really didn't like, making you two a terrible match.

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"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

When it looked like you were heading in to the friend zone you should have done a takeaway. And leaving a flower on her bed? What the fuck is that? Remember, you are the prize, not her. You messed up with her, but you can learn from it.

- SC

Hmmm interesting, because she reacted really positively to the flower (although no nooky). But I guess it's true that everything I did made HER look like the prize. Guess I wasn't sure how to stay out of friends zone without the romantic stuff.

I look at it in 2 ways....you're on one of two lists...the friends list or the fuck list.

Friends tell me I'm great at something..if you tell a girl she's great at something...guess what list you go to?

friends want to hang out with me...if you tell a girl you want to hang out with her...you go to the friend list...(and NO you can't be on both lists!)

friends don't let friends drive drunk! hahahahah.... if you tell a girl you'll drive her car home so you can try to score even though you're both drunk...you go on the friend's list and you go to jail! hahahahaha [that was Thursday night and she was mad as hell that I wouldn't drive because I was obviously less drunk than her...she drove and I refused to fu*k her because of her attitude which she apologized for by BJing me! hahahahahah]

assholes..tell girls they look like they're getting fat...not a friend...and if you're not going to the friends list... (just because you're on the fu*k list doesn't mean you're going to get fu*ked...but if you're not on it you will NEVER get fu*ked)

jerks tell girls they are probably no good in bed and that they can tell because of the silly way they walk...hahahahah fuck list.

You're not attracting women with your good qualities though, you're getting broken chicks and breaking them more, because you are being a jerk to them and treating them like garbage. Low value women will eat this up, high value women won't, they will tell you to go fuck yourself and never talk to you again. All depends on whether you want quality women or not I guess...

As far as not "hanging out" with girls, that's just stupid. I tell girls we're gonna hang out and end up making out or sleeping with them just fine, same as the VAST majority of PUAs out there phrase it. If you're gonna make up rules, don't make up rules that contradict hundreds of thousands of guys success.

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"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

I agree with the mod above me.

He def knows what he's talking about.

I sometimes use the two list thing to explain the difference between what a guy was doing before and what a he should be doing. I don't feel like what I'm saying is contradicting anything I've read before but I bow to someone with far greater knowledge than me. I hope I merely failed to communicate exactly what I was saying and I also hope that when I explain it to friends in person I do a much better job. If I gave the impression that I like to make women feel bad about themselves I don't think I do.

I've had friends ask me if (and I'm not the expert as the mod is, I'm just the best some of my friends who refuse to read have..) what they're doing is correct and the two lists is a quick reference for them.

I still don't think the guy that started this thread is following those rules that have brought success to so many and I don't know if you agree. I'm very sure that you "hang out" better than anyone I know but I thought it was important that the above knows the difference between what you're doing and what he's doing and I don't think he does.

I'm not advocating being a jerk, that doesn't even seem like much fun. I'm *trying* to give him an easy way to determine by comparison if what he's doing might be working.

Sorry to take up so much space, I just didn't want to get in the situation where people think I'm mean. I guess without being there to have fun with the word "fu*k list* it just comes off a little too negative.

Well, thanks for the post Rye, I'll take what you've said to heart.

Sometimes it's hard to communicate what you intend, so I'll take it that way and that you only have the best intentions.

What you've talked about is basically just Ladder Theory: http://www.laddertheory.com/ .

I remember when I was introduced to it and thought it was brilliant and described things very aptly. I think it's merely premature enlightenment combined with a joke as it is intended to be. Things are much more complicated than that, as life is very hard to boil down to such a simple concept.

The reason why this approach didn't work, was because he was too intense, too fast. The romantic stuff can work, you just need to go about it the right way and at the right pace.

Also, he didn't listen to what she was telling him and the hints to change his approach, which is key to making any relationship or pickup work. You use what they tell you in order to adapt your approach to suit them.

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"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

This discussion has become very helpful. I agree with Rye Lee. The thing is, I was doing gentle neggs one in awhile--saying she looked like a little catholic girl and adjusting her clothes, then reminding her I like the childish or conservative types. These seemed to be going ok (although tips are welcome) but putting her down really hard would have just made her leave straight-away.

Not interested in girls for whom that strategy would work, anyway. She has very high self-esteem, and no eating-disorders, or other psychological ticks, and is even smart... which is how I personally like them. She is also someone who would never, I believe, go home with a guy at a club. Her last boyfriend had to sleep in the same bed with her for weeks before actually having sex. This info from the female friend. What torture.

Yes, I was also introduced to the Ladder Theory a couple years ago. It sounded good, because I was giving my power away to this chick and was doing, well, everything as counter productive as humanly possible.

The ladder theory sounds good, especially to someone jaded by relationships. I walked that path for awhile until I found that it really wasn't fulfilling, but it might be the path that people have to take for awhile.

The mistake this guy made was a) he went cheesy romantic way to fast because he's seen too many damn chick flick movies (I seriously almost puked at the "you're a dream in the daytime" shit...that is hokey even if you ARE dating a girl), b) he wasn't aware at the signals being given because he was too blinded by whatever he thought was there, and c) he got drunk which made (b) even more problematic.

And dude...lay off the cigarettes. Women don't like them, they're bad for you, and you don't look cool. Stop.

_________________
Lo' there do I see My Father.
Lo' there do I see the line of My People, back to the beginning.
Lo' they do call to me, they bid me take my place among them.
in the Halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live forever.

Ok, now I have to defend myself after apologizing for almost causing massive puking The romantic stuff was definitely too much and too fast, but it wasn't too hokey for the hokiest of hoes. Maybe I need a theory on this approach, but my idea was something like this:

I'll show her that I can be a romantic dumbass because I know she longs for this sort of thing when she isn't getting any of it, which is most of the time.

I'll do so while showing, through body language, that even if I'm willing to award her in this fashion, I'm not offering myself unconditionally. I think a whole lot of women are great too and do this sort of romantic stuff quite a bit for others. All attention will be withdrawn if you start misbehaving.

At the same time, it is all done in a playful slightly self-ironic tone, as if to say, I know that you fall for this bullshit although it is, we agree, mostly bullshit.

...

Actually, it seemed to me that the romantic stuff and a few angry shoves (just to show the potential for rage, but not actual violence) were what worked best on her. I'll have to see what's up when she calls next time. At that point, I'll be a non smoker and a moderate drinker, hopefully.

It's okay to be a romantic dumbass, just don't do it until she's invested in you. You are giving her all this shit without expecting anything in return. You are what is known as the provider. The guy she strings along because as long as she gives you a minimal amount of attention, you will continue to do things that she likes. But she has no investment in you. If things go south and you start expecting some return, she won't give a shit--she will be out.

This isn't some logical strategy she's thinking of, this is just her emotional reaction to things.


Not possible--girls are very crafty social creatures. She will sniff out your incongruence instantly.

Actually, it seemed to me that the romantic stuff and a few angry shoves (just to show the potential for rage, but not actual violence) were what worked best on her. I'll have to see what's up when she calls next time.[/quote]

Dude---this is the worst possible image to project. You are needy and threatening--at least this is the image you are projecting. I'm telling you right now...you are obsessing about this woman and you need to stop. it will not end well, for either of you.
Good. Now do this without chasing after this girl. Try some fresh prospects.

_________________
Lo' there do I see My Father.
Lo' there do I see the line of My People, back to the beginning.
Lo' they do call to me, they bid me take my place among them.
in the Halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live forever.

Dude, you were in the LJBF zone a long time ago, and everything you did sent you further into it. the flower, the dream comment, telling her she is special, playing with her hair, arguing about yourself not being the right one!! There were some huge mistakes and there's no way you can get back from them now.

Take the advice of the people above me, learn from this whole thing, and move on to the next girl.

Ok thanks, that helps me get over it. Already have a new project or two. When would you say, though, I first got into the friends zone?

Without a doubt, you were already in it whilst you were still travelling together. 20 days in a long time, and if you didn't so much as kiss (properly) then you were in the zone by the end of it.