yep....well put man. I have been struggling to figure out what I was even trying to say. You summed it up well - I just also wanted to make mention that without the initial crutch though, I would have never known about certain aspects of my self that needed improvement. I have always actively tried to become better...but in the PUA community you find things that you didn't know existed.

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is there really such thing as a superior man? Besides genetically, i'm thinking no....but I could be wrong.

I would rather say there are men who are more well established in certain personalities, traits, and actions. None of which makes one superior than the other.

Does practicing PUA make you inferior? No.
Does looking for the fastest way to accomplish something and get postive results make you inferior? No, that just reinforces the fact you are human.

But stop being so human - shoot for something besides "not inferior"

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This is what I was refering to. When a PUA has his heart broken, he recovers from it quicker, by dealing with it in a healthier way and trying to understand what happened, instead of just getting depressed.

Of course this is a broad generalization, as this entire thread has been, whether you read my posts, Hobbit's, or Doc's. This is simply a summary of the majority of naturals that I have known in my life. They have outright told me that they don't deal with women breaking up with them well, as well as witnessing them crawl into a bottle, or sulk in their rooms for days and weeks afterwards, because they don't know how to deal with it in a healthy manner and don't understand why it worked out the way it did. I am not saying there aren't exceptions to the rule, I am merely saying that the majority is this way.

Perhaps I missed the purpose of this thread when originally reading it and maybe Doc had the same argument; that the majority of PUAs are only focusing on the pickup aspect and not on the rest of their lives. The way it was phrased caused made it sound like he was saying a PUA will always have less potential than a natural, which is why I objected. I believe that if a PUA applies the principles of exceling and learning from his mistakes and trying to achieve his full potential in all areas of life, that he has an advantage over the natural, because the natural just does what he does naturaly and doesn't attempt to improve, as he is satisfied where he is in life.

Hobbit made this point previously, when he remarked on how the genius in the class was happy to not study and get low A's, whereas the kids that realised they could do better if they worked for it were capable of getting even higher marks, as they never stopped trying to improve. I don't see how this point can be disputed, as anyone that continually tries to excel will always have the advantage over the one that accepts their lot in life and doesn't work any harder to become greater.

I don't believe that Edison, Ghandi, or any President has ever had that mentality when achieving the greatness that they did. They would have had a PUA's mindset of continually trying to improve, not the natural's mindset of being content with how he performed.

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"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

I just want to elaborate on why I find this so incorrect. I have never personally considered myself a PUA, I've hung around the PUA community for some time taking part in the debates and whatnot, but I've never read a book on how to pick up women or anything of the sort. Yet, here I am, conscious of what I'm doing, and I know what makes me good with women. I live a lifestyle of constant self-improvement, and I've never had to use a canned line or method ever. Just because I don't deem myself a PUA doesn't mean I don't learn from my mistakes, thats an absurd claim. Do you really think the PUA is the first self-aware man? Why does one have to be a PUA to understand our women counterparts? The answer is simple, one doesn't. Being natural, and just being a real man who understand the concepts of high value and actively seeks to improve all areas of his life: the body, the mind, the spirit, the wallet, the world, and his friends, family and social skills is the SUPERIOR man. Not the one who titles himself as one strict narrowly defined acronym.

Rye, I was also a little confused because a lot of the things I learned and have been working on dealt nothing with the actual material of sarging. I just thought that overall self improvement and development was part of PUA. Guess that is thanks to a good mentor, a good forum, and great guidance (Tripp, Doc, Zip, Rye Lee, XFMan, and others).

But - ive said this too much now - you all are right. The more I observe a lot of the people here, the more I see the pattern of behavior becoming one of "go out sarge go out sarge go out sarge get laid get laid get laid". Eh, everyone has their own perogative though. I like that we are trying to bring light to that and change it.

One last thing I want to add to this post, is that going out to sarge isn't a BAD thing. It DOES help. As a matter of fact, I have been thinking my time management needs a quick run thru - i've actually spent a little too much time focusing on every aspect EXCEPT PUA. And even though that is great for long term, it kind of defeats the purpose of being in PU.

It is all about balance people. Be well rounded - and like Doc is trying to say, be successful (financial, emotional, psychological, environmental, respectable - it can go on and on) in every aspect of your life....just make sure women are part of that success as well.



huh. Health Wealth and Love. Ring a bell?

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You're taking my words as antagonistic for no reason. I was agreeing with you that confidence isn't the deciding factor and that many people are confident, but that alone doesn't make them PUAs. Stop assuming that just because we disagree on some points, that we are unable to come to an understanding on others. The point of this discussion is not to be antagonistic and fight, but to discuss and debate the issue, so as to reach a better understanding. I don't know about you, but I have found some interesting insights in this thread from both sides of the table.

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"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

That's why I used the term "potential" over superior and I clarified in the next post I made.

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"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

You can disagree with this point for sure, but although your skills were naturally inherant to you, as were Hobbit's and Doc's; as soon as you began focusing on bettering your skills, I would term you as a PUA. You aren't just allowing your natural skills to be that and nothing more, you work to be better, thus no longer making it an innate ability.

I myself didn't have natural talent with women, but as soon as my eyes were opened to the community and what I was doing wrong, I became a naturally skilled PUA. I have read The Game, 2 books by David Shade and Introducing NLP, but nothing else by PUAs, yet I am now a full-time instructor with a company devoted to teaching men to become PUAs. I base all my skills upon psychology and things that appeared as common sense to me once I understood the concepts of attraction and comfort better. I don't use lines or routines and I do everything I do based upon my own intuition and knowledge. Does that not make me a natural? But I am also a PUA, because I strive to become better at it and improve myself continually, without merely accepting the talents I have now as there and not needing further improvement.

I consider a PUA to be a person that wishes to advance their abilities and achieve greater success. Thus everyone here that is working towards that goal is a PUA. May not be the textbook definition, but I know you are interested in evolving the art, just as much as myself.

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"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

Lovely, the thread has gotten back on topic!


As several people have caught on to, the idea is that using PU as a crutch is horribly limiting to your potential. It's not that it's in herently bad, and in fact if your just learning to walk using a crutch can be helpfull. The problem I've been seeing is the wasted potential... In keeping with the same analogy all the people who could walk on there own or even try running, but won't because they refuse to drop the crutch.

When we get to the point were picking up women is no big deal, and we are tackling bigger and bigger challenges, and constantly pushing the limits of our life, then guess what happens with women? They gravitate towards you, they want to be around you, they can see that you have potential and are damn sure going to achieve that potential.

As Neil said many times "Women are like talent scouts"... they know when someones going to make it... So push for sucess, don't be satisfied. The only way to achieve greatness is shoot for it.

I like your way of thinking Hobbit, but the problem I have with calling a guy a natural that has had to learn his skills, is that it wasn't an inherant ability of his. Natural, implies that he came that way and didn't have to study and work at becoming that way.

Lets link it back to the title of this thread. Natural breasts come that way and have not been augmented in any way, whereas if they have been enhanced with implants, or sculpted, then they are not natural. A natural in the field of PUA, came that way and didn't study and work at improving himself, whereas a PUA that practices natural game doesn't use canned lines and routines, but he has still had to enhance himself to get there, somewhat like a breast augmentation that doesn't require any sort of implant, only sculpting.

I think that instead of using a whole new word to describe a PUA that runs natural game, we just call them PUAs that run natural game. That's what I call myself, as well as The Saint, who was a natural up until he was in a 2 year relationship and lost his skills, but has now regained them. Neither of us uses canned routines, we tell some stories repeatedly because they convey just what we want at that point, but due to the fact that we realised we needed to improve our skills and did so, we are not full-on naturals, we are PUAs. We had the stuff to work with and it just needed a bit of molding to get it to where we needed, just like a girl that needs a bit of molding done to her breasts, but nothing new is implanted doesn't have completely natural breasts.

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"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

disclaimer: I am in the mood to be devils advocate and to make no sense while participating in the mindset.


curve ball gentleman!!!!

PUA, two types.

a.) a natural
b.) a learned (not fake!!)


Doc had listed some people (naturals) in a post above this - people that were constantly improving the lives of themselves and others. People who were constantly working to better everything about them, and with some...about the world (personal motives of individuals listed aside; each person believes what they are doing to be correct in some way).

Although these people did not primarily pursue the art of picking up women...they did involve themselves in what a major part of PUA is about. Would you call them Pick Up Artists? Could someone who is a natural at everything but women still be called a natural and still be considered a PUA??

Assuming the PUA community and lifestyle should be divvied out like this:

70% well roundedness (self improvement, self worth, self correction, social influence, ect ect).
30% - the learned ability to pick up women


If one person has 70% of the equation, would it be reasonable to say they are a natural? If that is the case, then hmmmmmmmmmmm is it reasonable to say Hitler is a natural?

The reason I ask (and ugh, ethics 101: never follow up a Hitler name drop with references to yourself - even if completely unrelated...) is because prior to the PUA, myself and probably many people in the PMZ zone were already working on bettering themselves. Actually, that is one of the things that led me here; I was already whitewashing my life and trying to go through tons of change and I figured this would be a good addition. So someone who is already well rounded, awesome and interesting...but lacks the social interaction skills - can they be considered a natural as well? Not to toot my own horn (sorta say) but I am a Rockstar. I was a rockstar well before coming to the community; I was just a rockstar with unsure women skills and a core that needed hardening. I would venture to guess a lot of others like Ka, Kino, and Smooth (to name a few) were that before they came here as well. Would you say we were already "naturals" but just didn't know it?



reclaimer: make sense?

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Do you think it would be reasonable to merge the natural and learned both into one category? It is like saying someone who was born into a Ninja clan (assuming Ninjas are born with the adept abilities they are privy to have) is different than someone who started learning Tai Chi (i know, i know, different countries). The point is, both are Martial Artists. One is just a natural martial artist, the other is a learned.

The Art of Pickup does not have to exclude naturals. It is an umbrella term for people who are good @ the things I said before - picking up women and improving themselves/those around them. Naturals do it, learneds do it. Both are still artists of this community; and neither are more or less fake than the other.


You have to remember Hobbit that there is an evolution to this as well though. A "rAFC", someone who is new to the community, sure...they might do this. And yes, some of the PUA's who don't mind spewing off memorized material may do it as well.

BUT, once someone has the confidence to ride the bike, the skills to interpret their surroundings while riding this bike, the ability to ride it properly, and the ability to have fun while doing it......they are ready to take off their training wheels. They have gone through the proper personal evolution. They are no longer sitting down with a notepad and paper before they go out; they just go out and do it. That is proper way (IMHO) of the learned PUA. But they are still learned PUAs.

too much generalization, I can't handle it. AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

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Herein lies one of the many problems of this particular community: Everyone has their own definitions and rehashed ideas to the point where almost every argument is reduced down to a difference in semantics. Sadly, there isn't much you can do about this. And sadly, I once again disagree that I'm a PUA just because I actively seek self-improvement. I'm a man who enjoys the company of women - among many other things - and I actively seek to sharpen my social, physical, intellectual, and countless other skills. I do this not to get women, but to make myself a better person. Having women attracted to my lifestyle is merely a symptom of my desire to become the ultimate human being. Call me a PUA, I call myself a man. If I were to label myself for all the things I do according to the time I spend doing them, then I'd be a martial artist 1st, and a PUA probably 20th. But I don't, being labeled as a male, is enough categorization for me. I'd prefer not being labeled as such, because honestly, I find the community to be a rather silly place and while I spend time taking part in its endless shenanigans, I'm here for self-help and to help others.

Locke, I don't think that just because someone seeks improvement that they are a PUA, although I definitely came off as sounding like that's what I meant, so I appologize.

If picking up women is one of the main areas that you work to improve upon and you are trying to perfect that art, then you are a pickup artist, whether your skills were originally natural, now natural, or just canned and "fake". We technically should be calling all naturals PUAs, as they are artful in the skill, just as someone that is naturally talented in the form of painting is an artist, whether they seek to better that skill or not, but we make the distinction so as to let other PUAs know whether they are aware of the community and actively working on those skills or not.

Smith, if I see you in the field and you are aware of the skillset, as well as actively seeking to improve upon those skills, not just blowing it off as bullshit, then you would be considered a fellow PUA. Label yourself as one or not, but due to the fact that you are here and willing to work on your skills, we will call you one, same as I will continue to call Hobbit, Doc and any other's that claim to be naturals PUAs. It is merely for distinction purposes.

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"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

I think ive aroused enough...my questions were answered long back. I appreciate it Rye. I was just playing. Being a painter doesn't make you a poet


I am sub-threading in my journal because this has sparked a lot more personal stuff for me. See ya there!

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