I realised someone sent me Mystery's book, How to Get Beautiful Women into Bed or something like that, and was browsing through it today.
Is being a scripted PUA manipulation? After all, scripts and routines are designed to make a woman feel certain things; thus manipulating her emotions. A natural gamer does the same still, but under the guise of being 'his best self'. However, this personality can be his personality and he just has to become more confident, understand social dynamics etc and he can do whatever he wants.

NLP is slightly different. I think checking out social cues, to work out whether you think auditorally, kinetically or visually and using those type of words to build rapport with someone is fine, but is this fake rapport? You can't make someone trust you if you don't like them, to make them trust you you would have to be fake. I can't decide whether this should be classed as fake or not.

Speed Seduction should be just banned. From what I read in The Game where he seduces the waitress, it's downright creepy. Practically hpynotising a woman to get her number?

The reason I post this thread as me and a mate were talking (he's also read The Game), and he actually thinks Ross Jeffries is 'cool' and there's nothing wrong with him. I don't get it.

What does everyone else think? The Forbidden Patterns are forbidden for a reason but still I think Speed Seduction is just as bad.

Where do you personally draw the line between influence, and manipulate? There is a difference, but some would argue that influencing the subconscious is manipulation.

My thought is this... Regardless of what "technique" you use everyone manipulates everyone in daily life. It is just something that we do to each other. Hell, it starts when we are young and we do it the rest of our lives. Kids to it to parents, parents do it to kids, we do it to each other, manipulation makes the world go round. Sorry to say but it's the truth.

When I did sales I manipulated customers to feel certain emotions to buy products, which gave people money including myself and the economy, etc. You have to accept the fact that certain manipulation is a part of life.

With that being said.... I really don't believe in using NLP or hypnosis for gaming women. People can argue with me all damnn day and say yeah but you just said... or you use forms of NLP and don't know it... It doesn't matter it's just my opinion on it and it won't change. I don't need to hypnotize women in order to get them to do anything.

I'm not saying let's ban NLP or Speed Seduction from the face of the earth, or that guys shouldn't use it to get women. Just saying I'm not going to use it because I don't need it to achieve my goals with the opposite sex, and I have some moral quams with it.

There is a lot of stuff in the community designed to elicit certain emotions through routines, openers, lines, body language, etc. Whether you're a natural or a PUA you are going to do things to influence the other person. That is just part of life and how we effect each other. Being a good debator I would argue that one form of manipulation is not any more right or wrong than another.

Obviously it's up to you what you what methods you want to use. It's "operator's choice" as I say to what tools you want to use in your PUA Toolbox. I don't need a damn jackhammer for every problem, sometimes I just need a strip of duct tape.

Jon

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Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

I'm still baffled with this whole 'manipulation' discussion.


Commercials is nothing but manipulation, yet we see that around like 24/7.

Manipulation is part of human nature. Don't judge on something that you are, you're nor jesus or the pope.

How can you be baffled? Just answer like JSmooth did, I asked for your thoughts and opinions and he gave them.

You're assuming I'm judging, I already know I'm not Jesus or the Pope.

Commercials are manipulation and everyone accepts that, so obviously they think it's OK. What I'm asking is where do you personally draw the line.

Manipulation is everywhere. And you should know that even when you use hypnosis you cannot control people. It's still a form of amplifying your influence. If hypnosis was so powerful then hypnotherapists would rule the whole world. And how do you know that the words "there's a difference between 'influence' and 'manipulation'" are not designed to manipulate you? After all they make you beleive that the things you are doing are completely normal (and they actually are). My point is that they take away the guilt you might be feeling (because when he tells you it's not manipulation you will assume that's true). Just think about it. And please tell me what's the difference between influence and manipulation. After all everyone has the freedom to choose to do something or not. The only thing you can do is make something more attractive so people would want do it. But no one can control people's minds withouth their permission (conscious or unconscious).

PS: About the forbidden patterns. If they really are forbidden why everybody knows about them and you can find many things written about them on the Internet. And I think you can also buy some of them... wow... how weird

^^Yeah.

Just talking to someone is like hypnosis. For instance, if I say "whatever you do right now, do not think about a great big elephant that's pink in colour", chances are you kinda have.
Ross is the man, old skool but still great.
Check this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Xn_oqEOtLYU

Tagging along, as this is something I've been giving a bit of thought to as well. I'd agree that to an extent "influence" and "manipulation" are continuum and not necessarily bad if used for good and not evil (that sounds like something Yoda would say, but whatever ).

Let me ask you guys this as well: is it "bad manipulation" to game a girl in a way that presents you as something different from your true self? And is that use of game self-limiting? What do you do if you get to a Day2? Is it sustainable?

The line can be found:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler


Please use common sense before making threads like this.


Also, even if you get 5 different opinions? What did you learn?


Nothing, you know what 5 different people think on the matter. but still haven't made up your own.

In my opinion, my opinion rules.

For me, NLP has changed my life in so many aspects, all to the better!
NLP helps me in so many situations, mostly just by keeping my good spirit up and always be motivated and in a good mood.

As for using NLP in interactions; NLP will help you connect and create rapport soo much faster. I usually say that I think the world would be a better place if everyone knew NLP. People would understand each other better and agree more, but that's just my opinion!

I also feel that since others will always try to manipulate you, it is good to come equipped with skills to counter their attempt. No one will take advantage of me!

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Slywalker

10 things I wish someone taught me about Pick Up 10-things-i-wish-someone-taught-me-vt53087.html

My opinions constantly change when new evidence is brought to light.

Let's say if 4/5 people thought NLP was disgusting and gave their reasons why, it would show that that small sample hated it, which would be interesting, however I've got mixed responses - some that I find interesting and useful, even your own.

Just because you don't learn from this thread does not mean it's dumb.

I wrote:
Today I can answer my own question.

We are all manipulators, that is what sets us apart from people who get 'lucky' with women.

We know how to attract women and manipulate their switches from off to on, we aren't lucky because we manipulate it to our will.

Everyone draws the line at forbidden patterns.

moved to NLP section, please post in the right forums

Of course Speed Seduction is manipulation, hell even Ross Jeffries said so himself. He reframes it however so instead of being manipulation, it is a gift that you give to women. You get them to feel good like no other guy can.

When women wear make up, get boob jobs, and get all prepped up before they go out, is that manipulation??? Yes, it is.

Another metaphor that Ross Jeffries uses:

"Look at your hand, if you were to lose a finger on your hand, which finger would effect you the most?

The thumb. Why? Because, the thumb has both the ability to move with and in opposition to the rest of your fingers. It has the ability to manipulate. Without it, you would be screwed."