Hi guys - new to the forum. Not new to the game though as I was a poster on another red pill forum for 3 years. Need to know how to proceed with girl who started out as a colleague over a year ago, which recently progressed to a friendship and was slowly moving beyond that, but she has disappeared.

- She is a massage therapist and I became a regular customer at her spa.
- We did 1-2 massages a month for a year. Always kept it professional and always had great chat.
- About 3-4 months ago she quit the spa but insisted we could continue the massages at her apartment.
- We did a half dozen or so at her place and this had clearly become a friendship.
- The IOI's amped up and we hung out twice. Went to a hockey game and got stoned at her apartment and watched movies. Never made a move.
- Two weeks ago she completely froze me out. I asked her to hang out again, she giggled and said okay but I haven't heard a word since.

For a long time I didn't look at her as a prospect. Wasn't my type as she's an alpha female who is ex cop/air force, is several years older but fine for her age, and has baggage that prevents any future. I just find myself wanting to bang/FWB her now. She was beginning to flirt more but I didn't pull the trigger because I figured if I'm wrong and made it awkward I stood a lot to lose: a great service (the massages), a weed dealer, and a good friend. I don't do female "friends", but in this age of technology when somebody massages your half naked body for dozens of hours over the course of a year, you talk a lot and there's bound to be a bond there.

She's busy with kids, school, and a PT job, but that never stopped her from texting before. Could always be another guy but she was recently b*tching about dwindling options because of her age and not having sex for a year.

I have decided not to hit her up again because I have maintained a solid frame up to this point. She's complimented my style and probably doesn't have a clue I'm thinking like this because I carry myself like a stoic SOB around her.

Her going ghost outta nowhere has got me twisted and I think we are at a cross roads. This was the entire reason I didn't take the the risk and now she's dipped anyway. Suggestions on how to proceed?

Why keep it professional if you like her as more than a friend?

Charm her, tease, be playful.
And....? When did the kissing/sex happen?
Girls like sex, too. Next time act like it.


That's typical nice guy behavior.

You: Hey you. I'm drinking and hitting up Netflix at my place tonight. Swing by.

When she comes in, let her put her purse down and go for the kiss.

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Because I didn't look at it this way until about a month or so ago, since the two times we hung out in a non-massage capacity.
I've done this for a year. Trust me when I say my frame was strong and she believes I'm more alpha than I actually am. She's even called me an alpha male many times. We've openly talked about social hierarchy and game.
It didn't. That was the time to make the move and yes, that last time I balked like a b*tch. But I'm half wondering if she's thinking the same insecure things, not even sure if I even like her like that. Because for a while I didn't.
We've talked about our prior sex lives a lot over time. A sign?
Yes it is, but I am not a "nice guy" in general around her. In fact I was an a$$hole for a while. I recently got the whole "I really didn't like you at first because I thought you were a jerk" schtick.

I'm prepared to escalate the next time I see her, but you don't think that this freeze out is an indicator that it's too late? I sent the last text and don't want to come off desperate now. I've spent a year demonstrating higher value than that.

I'm confident that at some point soon she'll hit me up again once a massage is overdue and I can pick up as normal, but you still disagree?

Come on.

You had a girl giving you massages and you never thought about banging her? Or how good she was with her hands?

Damn, even the ugly massage girls get me wondering, lol.




An alpha doesn't take a year to fuck a girl.



boring dates with no escalation will have girls running from you. She probably teased you about being "alpha" because she wanted to SEE IT.

Not really. Pals talk about their sex lives.
That's a totally different thing.

A jerk is a pompous, self-involved frat-boy-man. A bad boy is a charming motherfucker who girls love right away.

No.

From what you've told me, she's playing hard to get, or has another man right now.

Sometimes it's okay to show a girl you're horny and want her. Sometimes men have to chase early on. that's just the way it is. sometimes you have to double text, although it's not ideal. I did it a couple weeks ago trying to get a threesome with my gf, lol. Partly because I know it really pisses off my ex-fling in a way (the girl I texted), and partly because there's a good chance it could happen. And partly because I'm at the point where I just don't give a fuck about outcome. I send my text and move on. There's plenty of women.

Don't rely on the massage thing. It's weak, and a crutch at this point.

Text her in two more weeks to come over. If you hear back from her sooner, ask her over. If she asks "why", say you want to get naked.

To most guys, this would seem "rude" or might "scare the girl away".

But to most men who understand women, it simply doesn't matter. Women want to be taken out of the mundane, and they want honesty.

If this scares her off, she's a bore. And good riddance. If she gets worked up from it, she's a keeper.

Edit: the girl I double texted has told me she loves me, and wants me to dump my current gf for her. So I can get away with a lot more things I wouldn't be able to if i didn't have a girl hooked.

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Alright bro, thanks.

Last thing to consider, she's older than me, post-wall and everything. She ain't 21 anymore, and I know you game women differently by age bracket. Post-wall women who are divorced/jaded do not always respond well to guys just blurting it out, especially that we went so long with an opposite vibe. I'm thinking now there has to be alcohol involved where it "just happens".

Telling you bro, usually I dont wait anywhere near this long without going for it. Its happened one other time. I resisted my BPD ex's IOIs for over a year because she was crazy, but eventually gave in and it turned into 4 years. The fact that i "waited so long" confused her because she had guys fawning all over her 24/7

No, no, no.

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I don't do that. I treat women based on how they show up.

you are hesitant, fearful and terrified of a negative outcome. It is this fear that prevented you from escalating in the comfort of your own home.

At this point the results don't matter. Training yourself to not be such a pussy does matter.

Right now you're operating from within a scarcity mentality. Everyone has been there. This woman was already at your place, on your couch. Asking her out on a public date again is a step backwards and shows incredible weakness.

When you begin to lose your fear of outcome, you have begun to master your emotions. And when you do that, you give off an organic, slightly indifferent vibe that drives women crazy.

There are many, many women out there. Don't be afraid to lose this one. This is a great moment to act like a dominant male and go for what you want.

Fuck, do it tonight. If it doesn't pan out, go to a bar and approach women, and smile knowing you are a DOMINANT male who goes for what he wants without fear of outcome.

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Wow, there's a fuck invite if I've ever heard one.
There's your problem.
Yeah, people bullshit, unfortunately.
Trust me, if she wanted to text you she would find 40 seconds to text you.
If she's hot, there's always options of other guys for her. In my mind, her telling you she HASN'T. HAD. SEX. IN. A. YEAR. is a pretty clear invitation.
What does a solid frame with her matter if you don't get to have sex with her??? 'I didn't fuck her...but I looked good/cool.'

You're going to have to make a decision. You want her just as a friend or you want to have sex with her/FWBs whatever. But make that decision and stick to it. You seem to be scared of rejection. There's no way to proceed towards sex without the chance of rejection, ever.

How do you proceed? Either continue being her friend and have fun (Be aware that she might have just wanted to fuck and that's why she was being friends for a bit and actually has no real interest for just being a friend long term. Just a possibility) or go for it. (Though it might be too late, but you never really know until you try).

You've been in the middle. Pick a side.

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"The strong did what they could and the weak suffered what they must." - Thucydides

All good points people and you're all spot on. Operating from a scarcity mindset myself because I'm in a dry spell myself and a few months ago went through a series of flakes and rejections. Confidence has probably been at an all time low. I didn't hesitate like this in the past. And don't really have any men to shake me and tell me to snap the fvck out of it. My pops is deceased and I had no older brothers.

For the record we were never at my place. We've been to her place every time. And my only point about maintaining frame throughout means it might have bought me more time to make the move whereas with most girls it woulda been far too late by now.

I hit her up today and she was normal. We're doing a massage this Saturday and I'm gonna insist on sticking around, having a drink and turning on "Netflix". Gonna find out if it's too late or not. Her interest level was apparently pretty high and I was ignoring green flags like fvckin crazy.

Thanks fellas.

Hey, you've got us

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"The strong did what they could and the weak suffered what they must." - Thucydides

Just ask her out.

We've already been "out" a few times and we have plans at her place Sat night. Why would I want to get her AWAY from her apartment?

Do you plan to make a move?

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The reason I suggest to invite her out specifically...no massage, and then insisting on netflix is because you'll probably continue playing it safe and not make a move unless everything is right. Or you'll make a move that is awkwardly timed and wont have the follow through. Youve been to her place and done the same things as your plan before. I'd advise to flirt and express interest in seeing her, going out and coming back to her place. I'd say set the meeting as a man and woman thing, not friend thing, not client thing. That way if she accepts its
a different vibe and more conducive than another massage and friend hang out and then suddenly you spring dick on her. Let her know beforehand this is a man and woman thing, dont just spring it because you're giving yourself way too much room to do nothing when you get there.

Edit: I see Arch is suggesting against a public date but I dont know how he wants you to make a move. Maybe we are saying the same thing because I see he is touching on being dominant. Whether you meet in public or at her place, my point is to be upfront as I assume he is saying.

I got your drift now. Because we've been out a few times already and even once got baked and watched Netflix, she's already beyond that client stuff. I think she knows there is the potential for something to happen now and has been since we started doing the massages at her place.

I was just a b*tch and didn't make a move the last time when I was clearly going there for more than a massage.
Yeah bro. That's been what's stopping me. After a year of getting to know each other, and actually developing a real bond with a woman devoid all technology and fakeness, I think that's what stopped me from going for it before. The potential for bad timing could undo a genuine friendship that I value and one I don't want to throw away so easily on a botched move. I am pretty cynical on women and don't have many female friends nowadays.

It took a while to escape the client zone, and now I'm looking to escape the friend zone even though she never verbally put me there. In order to do it right at this point it needs to "just happen", i.e. with alcohol involved/during Netflix. I can't just put my hands on her randomly and in full sobriety.
I'm going to throw in sexual comments when I greet her and throughout the massage, and then insist on staying around after. I'll probably text her before I get there asking what she has to drink.

I should know within 15 minutes whether or not the night has any potential.