How do you "stop being needy"? There's nothing actionable in that phrase so I have to ask. It's like telling somebody to "just be happy" - without any actionable behavior to get there (whatever 'happiness' looks like), its not attainable.

Like Arch's situation freezing-out his gf, this is just attention seeking behavior and you are obsessed with this notion that you have to win her so you're only setting yourself up to chronically seek her approval, or praise that you're doing a good job.

Relationships threats NEVER WORK, period. As I'd already mentioned they create an air of distrust and fear, they're exploitive. Would you rather a woman be with you because she adores you and sees you as her no.1, OR would you rather she stay with you because you know her attachment buttons and are exploiting her fear of loss? What these guys are talking about here is PUNISHMENT, and it never works, ever. And if you want proof of why punishment never works, I'll gladly provide for you examples.

LEADING does not mean exploiting or punishing. You can lead in a loving way. Leading equates to being grounded within yourself and not looking outside for praise, reward, or conversely what NOT to do. Leading requires observing, rather than judging whenever possible...and if you're to judge to assume your partner has honest intentions (and if they don't, find someone healthier). Leading does not mean pouting like a baby and withdrawing affection and/or your attention when things aren't going your way - insecurely attached babies do this when their caregiver takes away their beloved object. A healthy integrated grown adult finds healthier ways to cope.

This is where your philosophy falls flat on its ass. In most cases, a girl doesn't think you're "#1" right away, it happens slowly over time if you keep a dominant frame.

Sure, you and I can go out and pick up obese 5's and 6's and be worshiped right away by these women.

But for highly sought after, beautiful women, sometimes it happens slowly for them. This philosophy that "she either worships me right away or I walk" is naive and hints at lack of experience.

And in many cases, I don't start truly feeling for these types of women unless THEY do things right. It works both ways.

We can talk platitudes all day long, but the reality is that biology/nature will always win.

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I disagree with this. The reason I do is because when you are appealing to a woman on more than just one dimension...you're initial value goes up a lot. So you hit them emotionally, the way you carry yourself, sexually, and even socially...you're #1 from the start. If you have less going for you, it may take time based on normal rules of attraction.

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This is not realistic.

This kind of connection is uncommon. Most situations involve one or two feeler dates, and then sexual exploration, and things get stronger from there.

"#1" is the girl putting you ahead of family, friends, everything. I can go out and do this right now with a gaggle of 6's, but why?

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There is a huge difference between unrealistic and something that some people don't experience. There was a guy that posted earlier today thinking it was unrealistic to kiss a girl after only talking to her for a little while. A person with experience in it wouldn't call it unrealistic.

I used to believe in feeler dates until I realized a first date can end at my house and then realized at some point that it could start at my house and sexual exploration could all happen in hours and not multiple dates. Experience is the best teacher a man can have. But I doubt that someone that does well with women would call it being unrealistic. Just about all the guys I hang out with can do that without it being a problem.

For example...I met a girl that lives in Colorado a few months back at a work function that she and my best friend were attending. After a few hours of talking and making out, she dropped her sister from being a plus #1 for a trip to Aruba with their company and took me instead and hadn't seen me for a second time until the trip. That is someone that put me ahead of her friends and family, she is ridiculously hot(I don't get into the numbers rating because it's speculative,), and my best friend still can't believe that I pulled it off. It's not that it's unrealistic, it's just not something that you may not be used to.

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You're changing the goal posts. Fucking a girl for one night is not the same thing as her making you her number 1. Can it happen from that? Maybe.
Put your dick away Jack, lol. I don't want to have a sword-fight. We're not talking about escalating on first meet, we're talking about getting a gorgeous woman to prioritize us above all else.

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You're way way way WAY off. I expect a rebuttal to justify your current behavior towards this person you're involved with. It's quite telling.

My point was you calling something unrealistic when it isn't. I'm talking about women that catch your vibe when they see that you have your shit together. They don't want to let a man like that go. All of the fucking doesn't mean shit, going out on dates doesn't mean a thing, it's how you represent and carry yourself that counts the most as long as the initial attraction is there.

That second statement was not a jab at you...so I apologize if you took it that way. Just about everybody knows I'll say something pretty slick for a laugh.

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Boundaries should be set early on. How those boundaries are set is irrelevant as long as they are.

I don't reward bad behavior. And if it continues, I'll move on.

The OP is where he is because he didn't create, nor enforce boundaries. In fact, he followed your philosophy of "getting emotionally direct". That's great if you have the girl, but he didn't.

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No offense taken, lol. That's the kind of sarcasm that allows us to do well with women.

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You must be on hallucinogenics as you're having an argument with yourself over a conversation that never transpired.

Are you shrooming? It's "Hallucinogens".

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Appreciate the honesty before

You're being extremist though. Dating a girl for a couple of months and her telling you she doesnt want a serious relationship with you, is FAR FAR FAR different from her thinking you're number 1 right away or walking if she doesnt worship you.

The language you use is also very telling. I dont want a girlfriend to "worship" me or to make me #1 in her life. Just as I wont be worshiping a gf or making her number 1. Your goals are ego based, and the type of women that you would get to eventually worshiping you are the needy, insecure, dependent ones.

If you're looking for exclusivity, why not find a woman who WANTS exclusivity? I mean, I dont even know how some guys can fool themselves, that if they get a chick who didnt want to stop fucking other people on her own, that when she gets you that need is not going to arise in cheating. I swear, I read some of this stuff, and I wonder sometimes if I'm living on another planet. There are tons of highly attractive women, with goals beyond male attention, who will value you for yourself, who would love to have fun and share moments with one guy.Sure, there are some vapid women who need guys buying them stuff to feel good...but thats there's a term for that ie "not relationship material." You dont make these girls your gf and then have to stop her from seeking out orbiters. You dont make these girls yours to have to ignore her for a few days because she never wanted you and the moment the real you comes out, you have to backpeddle to present the fake you to her. Life is so short man, I couldnt fathom worrying about if a gf is keeping orbiters; because if I didnt like a girl keeping orbiters: I WONT CHOOSE A GIRL WHO KEPT ORBITERS. Why would you walk into a dealership, and buy a car that was RWD when you need an AWD car? And then, why would you buy the RWD car, get in accidents on the snow, and not think, maybe I should get an AWD one?

I mean, I get it...she's hot. But come on, there are so many hot girls out there. I'd rather move if I had to freeze out a gf because she was a prize. And the reason I wont pick a girl whose values didnt align with mine, is because I'm not stupid (not a jab). I won't fool myself that I can tell or scare a girl with my absense of lack of attention to stop seeing guys if thats what she wants to do. I'd expect she'd just go do it anyway. You guys' thinking is like you can really stop someone from doing something they really want to do. And you're fooling yourself if you think you can.

If a girl isnt ready for a relationship, or wants one with you, why manipulate it? And no, thats not saying that she has to be all in on the first date, but by the time you think of exclusivity, she should be thinking it too. And if she didnt want it from knowing you for x amount of months, its a sign that you 2 are incompatible. You're not gonna win by trying to make someone do something they didnt want. All you get is a gf on your facebook and a girl who youll constantly have to keep gaming to keep.

Personally I dont even beleive in setting boundaries. I look for women who share my values. Like Arch, your gf needs orbiter's attention. You hit her with a boundary. Lets say she says ok, no more orbiters. Do you really believe she will just not talk and see them behind your back? If someone has a need, putting a restriction, does nothing...they'll just figure out a way to do it. Its a simple matter to just do it and make sure you cant find out.

You got this girl, the same way you were advocating OP to. To game her. And look where its gotten you. You have to say months in no orbiters and hope she does it. You have to freeze her out and ignore her to get some respect. Is it really worth it? To be with someone who wants orbiters and doesnt respect you naturally? Now is the honeymoon phase...do you really think things get easier from here? Relationships typically are at their best the first few months, if you have to think of breaking up or walking away, its already done. Why would you want the OP to get the prize as you did, to then have her pull away a couple mths in?

Right, that's the OP, not me.


I think we all know "#1" is a euphemism for "a girl that has our backs".

Because those are almost always the most desperate, least attractive women. I have a bunch of obese gf's who want kids, a family, super loyalty, and these women are 22-24.

Women who have options (IE attractive ones) will feel things out first, and will often put you in competition with several other dudes for a few weeks before they gradually fade away. This is reality.

Agreed! But let's say you just started seeing a really hot girl. I guarantee you, guarantee, she has several dudes in rotation, whether FWB, leaning FWB, or boyfriend potential. This is the era of texting and snapchat and they just do this shit on autopilot, especially beautiful women. If it's "love at first sight", great. You have her right away. But more often than not a guy needs to play it cool and rise above the horny flies that swarm her everyday existence.



That's just too black and white. Life is grey and more complicated. I shouldn't have to work out at the gym to attract better quality women, but that's reality. I shouldn't have to be charming to get a woman, but that's fucking reality. We can spin feel-good platitudes all day long, but it doesn't mean anything. It's not substantial.

This attitude that if I just straighten my posture and speak slowly, all these women will fall about me is Disney-esque.


What if you didn't know? Again, you're analogy is too simplistic. Say it's the best girl you've dated in five years. Everything is perfect, but you just found out?


I wish this was the case. I have an extremely narrow type, a certain combination of features and intelligence. It's gotten to the point where I've done so well with women, that I will stroll through bar after bar until I see my exact type, a type that has been vetted through mass experience. I will not waste a second of my time on anything else.

This is the OP's thing. The OP's problem is that he's being disrespected and has not set boundaries, thus allowing the disrespect to flood. It's not about stopping her, it's about getting back a dominant frame. Okay, so if she walks, she walks, but if he gets his frame back he wins.


Why manipulate a girl at a bar when you can just sit at home and jerk off to porn? Why open the door and advance in life, to evolve, to learn, to better yourself and get what you desire when you can just sit inside with angel wings covered in Cheeto-orange while the Xbox roars?



This I agree with. But what's wrong with him giving it a shot? I've had this work before in my favor.

Now this is a good point. Fuck.

But let's be honest, not everything is going to be perfect. There are going to be at least a couple problems. I guess we deal with them the best we know how. You either look past the flaws of the person you care about, or you roll.



Because we all have flaws, and I have my share of orbiters, too. We'll see what happens, but great points, man.

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Again, I read this and think maybe Im in another planet. I know and have met many beautiful women who are looking for an exclusive relationship. They're hot, but not really into male attention. Theyre more about friends family and hobbies like travelling or working out.
The reason you workout is so you have better options and have better quality. Whats the point of learning game and working out to get into relationships where you have to put up with unnecessay shit? Personally, I use my skills to CHOOSE the women I want to be with and I shouldnt have to settle or freeze out.
But you DID know. As OP knows. Hey, if you're with a girl who never had orbiters and one day she starts with that shit, then ok. But thats not your case. I remember advising you,(I think) to not manipluate a relationship. You knew this girl needed male attention. You knew she didnt want exclusivity.
Because a relationship is not a one night stand. You can shift into another person to bed a girl if thats your morals, but to not be yourself for a week, a month, a year with someone...just to keep them drains YOUR happiness. Isnt the goal to improve yourself so you can just be yourself. To use your analogy correctly, why advance in life if you cant even enjoy it? Whats the point of improving yourself, approaching 1000 times more than the average guy, to settle like this? With all the practice and theory, we shouldnt be settling for a hot girl who is right for us...I mean if we approach this much why are we settling?
Maybe stop looking in bars? If you date from bars of course you're gonna find girls with orbiters. There are so many places to meet women.
Yeah, there are going to be problems. There's gonna be what to do when you decide to move for another job. Where should you vacation together to? A silly argument about politics. Life has so much shit to throw at a relationship, why add to it by choosing incorrectly? Why add to it shit that should just be required? Ive dated some amzingly hot girls but I would hate it if shit lik orbiters or disrespect were even an issue. And its because while dating I screen for women who share my values.

It just sounds way to unnecessary. You say this is a symptom of hot girls. I cant agree with that. Ive dated models, actresses, students, lawyers, dancers and never had to think of a freeze out or boundaries. Ive also disqualified models, actresses, etc who if I had chosen I would be having these conversations. Im just saying man, there are way too many women out there to not have the experience you want. Heck man, Ive lived on literal islands with a million people total and found women easily thats share my tastes and values. If they're not abundant, maybe look at where and how you're meeting them? Not all hot women are attention whores or chicks who dont want to be exclusive. There are MANY who just want a great guy.